Author Topic: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter  (Read 171055 times)

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Offline robrenz

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #150 on: July 03, 2013, 02:09:03 pm »
These LM399 references will drift quite a bit (the data-sheet is BullSpit-- on the average, about 8ppm) in the first year, and then progressively less thereafter.  What this means is that if you buy an older well-used (and regularly calibrated) DMM, it is likely to have already gone past this early drift period, and will be quite a bit more stable than a brand new DMM.  So, if you buy a new one, leave it on for about a year-- then get it calibrated (and have them *also* adjust it-- not just measure it and claim all is well-- this might require extra beer...).  After that, unless you use it all the time, leave it OFF until about 1 hour before you want to use it, then turn it back off when you are done using it-- this will preserve the calibration for many years.  I have to assume that you actually need the extra resolution and accuracy-- (or you are a "volt nut" like me, and just want it because you want it)-- otherwise you might be better off with a really good hand-held DMM.

Fluke tech support has told me that they age the references before they go into the 8846A  to eliminate the larger initial drift. They would not tell me exactly how long but that it is a very long time.  IIRC they actually have a room dedicated to aging references.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #151 on: July 03, 2013, 03:42:54 pm »
Depends on what you consider initial drift. The LTZ1000 in the HP 3458A used to be binned in the normal models (From memory these were specced 8 ppm/yr) and the high stability option (4 ppm/yr IIRC). After a number of years, the majority of the normal references would be down to the 4 ppm level. I'm sure they aged their references for a long time (unlike for those run-off-the-mill 6.5 digit meters ;)), but there would still be a residual 'initial' drift.
 

Online Andreas

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #152 on: July 04, 2013, 09:09:47 pm »
Mhm,

after having seen the review there are some open questions:

Agilent does not seem to have a sliding average function over e.g. 50 measurements.
When doing real precision work, just using the 6.5 Digit multimeter as a "null voltmeter" against a high stable reference/calibrator this would be a very useful function.

Does the 34461a still use the LM399 as reference or is it replaced by a cheaper LT1236LS8 device and some temperature compensation which was recently launched by LT?

How stable the new instrument really is against the old version will be seen after the 3rd calibration cycle....

If a LM399 is used as reference: The reference itself has a stability issue when being tilt. So all instruments that I have seen up to now with a LM399 have a more or less drift whether they are placed flat (bottom down) or one of the other 5 directions (e.g. upside down) on the table. (notice: it takes around 1 minute until the readings stabilize).
Usually the current consumption of the LM399 heater is a minimum when the legs are in upside direction.

So Dave: with the new instrument how much influence does the placement orientation on the table. Should I remove the handle before sending the instrument to calibration (so that they can only put them flat on the table instead of gentle tilting) or has this minor influence?

With best regards

Andreas





« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 05:33:06 am by Andreas »
 
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Online Andreas

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #153 on: July 06, 2013, 05:33:46 am »
The reason for the tilting issiue can be found when having a look at the chip photo of LM399
(thanks to branadic for the links).



http://m.radiokot.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=52829&start=60


The heater structure is built on the right side of the chip which gives a unequal temperature distribution depending on orientation.

With best regards

Andreas
 
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Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #154 on: July 06, 2013, 06:23:44 pm »




All DMM's that I know of (that use an integrating ADC) require that the ~7V reference be converted to +/-10V for use by the converter.  This would require 2 op-amps and 2 resistor dividers, all of which will contribute to ADC drift-- possibly more than the reference itself.  For example, in the Agilent/HP 3458A 8.5 digit DMM, they use a (drifty) dual LT1013 op-amp, a cheap (and drifty) resistor network to go from +7V to +10V, and a couple of cheap (and drifty) metal-film resistors to go from +10V to -10V.  This causes horrible temp-co drift (below the 6th digit), which forces the user to auto-cal with a temperature change of more than 1-deg-C-- (which is *very* annoying if you don't have a temperature controlled lab)-- in fact, it's so bad that if you don't control the room temperature at 23C +/-0.1C, then the last 2 digits are almost useless (except perhaps for ratio measurements).  By contrast, the Fluke 8805A 8.5 digit DMM uses chopper amps and ultra high stability metal-foil resistors for this function, and as a result there is no noticeable drift +/-5 degrees-C from Tcal (which is usually 23C).  So, while the reference is important, other components and design trade-offs can and do affect that ultimate accuracy of any DMM.

With the exception of the Fluke 8805A (which is around US$12K), I have yet to see any manufacturer design a DMM for accuracy and stability as the #1 priority-- they all seem to be more focused on "whiz-bang" features and pretty user interfaces (which is nice), but I would love to see just one manufacturer produce a 6.5 digit DMM that had honest to goodness *real* accuracy to the last digit (+/- one count on the last digit) for basic DC, and with best-in-class accuracy on all of the other functions-- and also would maintain that level of accuracy for at least one year between calibrations (and at +/-5C)-- and would also be able to be calibrated with just +10V and 10K references (ie. "artifact calibration").  In other words, something in between the realm of 6.5 digit DMM's and the Agilent 3458A.  Myself, I would be willing to pay US$2K to US$5K for that.  You can get that today by purchasing an old HP 3458A, and then set the digits displayed to 6.5-- which will remain stable at this number of digits for a long time if you "auto-cal" once per day-- but the 3458A is a rather large and heavy beast, with a very noisy fan.  I would love to have what I want without all of the "fluff", and without having to over-pay for a higher level DMM...

That said, at the US$1K price point, this 34461A is a great DMM-- and I would buy this over a less expensive Rigol 6.5 DMM just because it is designed and supported by Agilent.

Sorry D.M.,

what you assume about the 3458A is absolutely incorrect! 
NIST, PTB and all other metrological institutions wouldn't use such a scrap instrument, like you describe the 3458A.. but you can see it in every other photograph around JJ standards there...

Simply study its specifications, i.e. 0.05 + 0.05 ppm transfer accuracy for 10min. and +/- 0.5°C, and you'll directly recognize, that your theoretical assumptions are false.

Obviously, you compare the 3458A with the Fluke 8508A, (a 8805A does not exist!), but latter stability specs are even slightly worse, (0.12 + 0.1 ppm for 20min. / +/- 1°C)
And also, its T.C. is 0.3ppm/K, compared to 0.15ppm/K for the 3458A.

From practise, i.e. from my own measurements, I can tell you, that the 3458A really is able to deliver 8 stable digits on a short time scale, and to < +/-0.1ppm over > 24h, even if the internal temperature changes for a few tenths of °C.


Reason for your wrong assumptions: You have lost the overview in the 3458A CLIP, very obviously:

The +/-10V reference you mentioned: U400 = LT1013 with RP400, R402, R403, is used in the OHM circuitry only, and its stability is not important for that function at all.

The A/D in the 3458A runs instead on +/-12V references, generated on the A/D board by U160, U165 = LT1001 and 4 resistors on the A/D hybrid.
For sure, those resistors are T.C. matched, and they are isothermal, so that their influence on stability is very,very low (as the spec proves right).

Those OpAmps contribute very little to T.C., but do not add noise in the A/D circuitry, as ChopAmps (as in the 8508A???) would do in that place.


I can absolutely recommend to you the 3458A, if you go for best DCV stability and linearity.. although there are some disadvantages in that old design.

One is the mistreated LTZ1000 reference, at 95°C , which nearly gives no better 1yr. stability than a LM399. (Can easily be pimped to much better stability).

And the 1000V range is not compensated for self heating effects, as is the 8508A.


The new 34461A is really nice, because it's a modern and cheaper version of the old 34401A. And the scrappy current ranges are improved a lot.

Once again, an improved 1yr. stability for the 34461A would require a well designed LTZ1000 only ( agilent would suck several 100 bucks more for that).

You can age the LM399 as long as you like, but you will NEVER get a stable reference out of it..
As there exists no spec and no method for reliable ageing for a smaller  1yr. stability, it will drift forever, and everything else is simply wishful and very theoretical thinking.

You only have the chance to monitor running references and to sort out the most stable - and that's exactly, what they all (Fluke, agilent,..) are doing.


Not to forget: If you need for some reasons 6,5 digits of stability and uncertainty in your measurement, you'll have to use a 7,5 digit instrument, due to the digital, i.e. 10:1 ranging.
A 6,5 digit instrument 'precise' to the last digit won't make sense, therefore.

Therefore, a 3458A would be the right choice for that requirement.

Frank


« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 08:00:17 pm by Dr. Frank »
 
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Offline quarks

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #155 on: July 07, 2013, 05:38:57 am »
about the comparison of HP/Agilent 3458A and Fluke 8508A, the att. charts might be helpful
All shown graphs represent the 1 year DCV datasheet specs.

In this comparison I find the 3458A is not even close to the 8508A accuracy.
The 3458A-02 Option looks a little better and comes closer.

Only the (Fluke) 3458A/HFL version is in parts of the 10V range a little bit better then the 8508A.
BTW I would be interested to know if/where you can actually buy the HFL version and how much it is (or was).
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/r0en/digital-multimeters/HP-3458-HFL.htm?PID=56270

When I looked at other functions accuracy comparisons I found the Fluke 8508A overall is superior to 3458A.
The next best thing to the Fluke 8508A still seems to be the good old Datron/Wavetek 1281.   

edit: added another chart with changed colors of the 3458A-02 and 3458A/HFL to better see the difference
edit: error correction in HFL and with input about 3458A 1kV range from Dr.Frank revised the chart
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 01:16:43 pm by quarks »
 
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Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #156 on: July 07, 2013, 07:02:06 pm »
about the comparison of HP/Agilent 3458A and Fluke 8508A, the att. charts might be helpful
All shown graphs represent the 1 year DCV datasheet specs.

In this comparison I find the 3458A is not even close to the 8508A accuracy.
The 3458A-02 Option looks a little better and comes closer.

Only the (Fluke) 3458A/HFL version is in parts of the 10V range a little bit better then the 8508A. But in all other ranges it is the same as with Option 02.
BTW I would be interested to know if/where you can actually buy the HFL version and how much it is (or was).
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/r0en/digital-multimeters/HP-3458-HFL.htm?PID=56270

When I looked at other functions accuracy comparisons I found the Fluke 8508A overall is superior to 3458A.
The next best thing to the Fluke 8508A still seems to be the good old Datron/Wavetek 1281.   

edit: added another chart with changed colors of the 3458A-02 and 3458A/HFL to better see the difference

Hello,

interesting charts..
but 1 yr. stability might not be the key parameter.

transfer accuracy / linearity is often more interesting, and there, 3458A has not been beaten yet.

Also don't forget, that the 3458A is VERY mediocre on 1kV DC specification (not shown in your charts), in the small footnotes, you'll find 12ppm cross something squared Volt, for an uncertainty of 12ppm for 1000V only...

All other 8,5 DMMs are specified much, much better.

Frank
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 07:12:58 pm by Dr. Frank »
 
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Offline lewis

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #157 on: July 08, 2013, 12:27:08 am »
edit: added another chart with changed colors of the 3458A-02 and 3458A/HFL to better see the difference

Nice graphs, but which is which? The bottom and the top curves look the same (in colour) to me.

Maybe label the curve right next to the curve itself rather than using a key?
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Offline quarks

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #158 on: July 08, 2013, 06:40:47 am »
This is my last post on this subject-- since it is way off-topic...  (Maybe we should start a new thread?)
here you go
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/8-5-digit-dmm/msg258880/#msg258880
 
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Offline quarks

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #159 on: July 08, 2013, 06:43:31 am »
edit: added another chart with changed colors of the 3458A-02 and 3458A/HFL to better see the difference

Nice graphs, but which is which? The bottom and the top curves look the same (in colour) to me.

Maybe label the curve right next to the curve itself rather than using a key?

in the 3rd 2nd chart there is the legend on the right side (top graph is 3458A, bottom is 8508A in between is 3458A-02 and HFL)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 12:39:42 pm by quarks »
 
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Offline quarks

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #160 on: July 08, 2013, 10:01:15 am »
interesting charts..
but 1 yr. stability might not be the key parameter.

transfer accuracy / linearity is often more interesting, and there, 3458A has not been beaten yet.

Also don't forget, that the 3458A is VERY mediocre on 1kV DC specification (not shown in your charts), in the small footnotes, you'll find 12ppm cross something squared Volt, for an uncertainty of 12ppm for 1000V only...

All other 8,5 DMMs are specified much, much better.

Frank
Hello Frank,
you are right about stability and transfer accuracy / linearity. The 3458A still is a very good meter. I also had it on my wishlist, especially because of the nice/easy artefact calibration with only 10VDC + 10k Ohm references.

I found and use my charts for almost all of my considerations and always before making a buying decisions. Therefore when I look at gear, the 1 year specs are the first parameters  I compare. Because in my experience most of my better gear (I check regularly), indicates to stay at least within these limits over years.

Unfortunately I do not understand your comment about 1kV. I used the att. numbers in the charts (incl. 1kV). Please let me know what is wrong or missing, so I can fix it.

bye
quarks
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 10:03:18 am by quarks »
 
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Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #161 on: July 08, 2013, 10:32:54 am »
Hello Frank,
you are right about stability and transfer accuracy / linearity. The 3458A still is a very good meter. I also had it on my wishlist, especially because of the nice/easy artefact calibration with only 10VDC + 10k Ohm references.

I found and use my charts for almost all of my considerations and always before making a buying decisions. Therefore when I look at gear, the 1 year specs are the first parameters  I compare. Because in my experience most of my better gear (I check regularly), indicates to stay at least within these limits over years.

Unfortunately I do not understand your comment about 1kV. I used the att. numbers in the charts (incl. 1kV). Please let me know what is wrong or missing, so I can fix it.

bye
quarks

In the specification (e.g. page 82 in the calibration manual), you'll find footnote 6 for the 1kV DCV range:

"Add 12 ppm X (Vin/1000)2 additional error for inputs >100 V."

That means, you have to add a quadratic term for the 1kV range, culminating in  additional 12ppm for 1kV.
=> 1000V: 24h = 14.6ppm, 1yr  = 22.1ppm

This describes the shift in the 100:1 divider, due to self heating effects.

All other DVM  will have this same effect in their high voltage divider, but obviously have software to compensate for that  (to 1ppm level), e.g. by adding additional cal points at 500V and 1000V.

The full autocal feature of the 3458A does not allow such a compensation calibration...

In practise I have measured about 3-4 ppm additionally for my 3458A @ 1000V, measured directly with a Fluke 5442A (this instrument has an oven-stabilization/compensation of its range resistors) and by comparison with my DIY precision Hamon type 100:1 divider, which should be by design uncertain to < 1ppm @ 1kV.

Which other DVM / standards really have full auto-cal or artefact calibration capabilities, i.e. calibration by 10V and 10kOhm references only?

I know the 3458A, the 5440/5442, the 720A, 752A, and the 5700/5720 only.

As DVMs are not accepted and not usable as real 'standards' (e.g. statement from NIST), it is more helpful to have external  10V, 10kOhm standards (stable ones) instead, and then forget about the 1yr. specs of the DVM.

Together with the autocal feature of the 3458A, such a system is much more versatile...


And not to forget: The references drift mainly if they are powered on.

If you switch the 3458A off most of the time, its 1yr. drift will be very low, even with the regular 8ppm/yr. reference.


Best regards Frank

« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 11:49:52 am by Dr. Frank »
 
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Offline quarks

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #162 on: July 08, 2013, 12:25:54 pm »
"Add 12 ppm X (Vin/1000)2 additional error for inputs >100 V."

Thanks Frank, now I got it. I revised the chart with this detail.

Which other DVM / standards really have full auto-cal or artefact calibration capabilities, i.e. calibration by 10V and 10kOhm references only?

That is exactly what attracted me most. I actually bought my SR104 to be ready for a 3458A.

BTW: Maybe this whole page 13 should be moved to https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/8-5-digit-dmm/msg258880/#msg258880 by an admin
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 01:11:18 pm by quarks »
 
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Offline Lawsen

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #163 on: July 09, 2013, 12:48:19 am »
I totally like the graphic display and color, too.  This is a nice improvement to the original HP-34401A "alf code name of HP (Agilent)."  The price is reasonable for a bench top multimeter.  I like the menu buttons along the bottom and USB memory port, but I will not need that feature. 
 
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #164 on: July 13, 2013, 10:24:37 pm »
While I was comparing specs:
The burden voltage on the ranges 1A and 3A are very high compared to other DMM even the BM869 (45mV/A) is much better, their 10A range is then normal again.
1A < 0.7V
3A < 2.0V
10A < 0.5V
The 2 lowest ranges 100µA and 1mA are very good though even better than the Fluke 8846A.  (<0.11V vs <0.15V)

They only make you switch to the 0.01ohm shunt (10A terminal) above 3A.
The DM3068 makes you switch to this shunt above 200mA the Fluke above 400mA (BM869 >500mA)
So it makes you switch later but you pay a big price for it. Measuring 1A will be with lower resolution or bigger burden voltage.


Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
[W. Bruce Cameron]
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #165 on: July 14, 2013, 09:18:09 am »
Quote
and (eventually) you will be able to get schematics for them
What is the basis for that statement? 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #166 on: July 14, 2013, 09:59:55 am »
In Dave's review, he said that the manual states that for highest accuracy, you should use the 10A input.  (The 3A input is only there for 34401A compatibility).

The 10A range is fixed, it does not do autoranging. If you want the lower range you have to use the 3A input.
 
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #167 on: July 14, 2013, 08:40:38 pm »
Does Agilent release schematics for equipment when it gets old, or is it just that old equipment was released when the policy about releasing schematics was different? I can't see a good business case for Agilent releasing schematics when equipment gets near EOL. Sure, it might get them a tiny amount of goodwill, but it won't give them many new sales for that instrument. Unless they make this a written police, it won't help them selling newer equipment either.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #168 on: July 14, 2013, 08:56:47 pm »
Links to any released Agilent (as opposed to HP) schematics anyone?
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Offline lewis

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #169 on: July 14, 2013, 09:25:18 pm »
www.schemati.....  bugger.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #170 on: July 14, 2013, 10:14:15 pm »
The 3458 schematic is here: http://www.schematicsunlimited.com/h/hp-agilent but it's an HP schematic, not 'Agilent'.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #171 on: July 14, 2013, 10:19:15 pm »
Component level information packages (CLIPs) are usually for sale to customers, although they might cost around $200 (not that big of a deal given the price of a 3458a). As far as I know, both the 3458a and 34401a schematics were released either when the instrument was released or shortly after. At which point the availability can still affect purchase decisions.
 

Offline plesa

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #172 on: July 15, 2013, 06:56:33 am »
The Agilents offered manuals does not contain schematic, which is the biggest pain in the ass when you are troubleshooting.
E.G for 20k spectrum analyzer they only offer assembly level service quide with block diagrams and list of service parts for $500.
As far as I know Agilent does not release schematic anymore, only for  instrumnets which were released prior Agilent takeover HP.
The 34401A and the 3458A are not good example, try to find the schematic for 34411A.
In my job we had to send many time the instruments for repair to one company which was takeover by Tektronix and everytime the repair cost more than new instrument. But they offer the discount for the brand new ;-) Their service did not try to replace or troubleshoot, just replace whole main board. In most cases it will need to replace  just transistor or opamp and calibrate it.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 05:51:29 pm by plesa »
 
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #173 on: July 26, 2013, 12:44:43 pm »
About the true RMS it only takes the AC component of it, present in the spec. sheet(doesn't really make it true RMS from my point of view)

I just checked with my DM3068 and since there is an filter in it (3Hz and up) it also only shows the AC component.
Also the reason why the Gaussian pulse of the DG4160 seemed wrong, the AC component was right.
(the cardiac one and others are still wrong though I only measure 0.63Vrms)
The DG4160 signal has the mean in the middle between peaks (not DC mean, after cap)

My Brymen BM869 is doing true RMS of the signal (DC+AC) it even shows the AC only part in the dual screen.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 02:21:27 pm by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Re: New Agilent 34461A 6.5 Digit Bench Multimeter
« Reply #174 on: July 26, 2013, 07:35:56 pm »
RMS stands for the root mean square, or sqrt(mean(x^2)). It does not specify what this x is. The datasheet only mentions true RMS in the context of AC voltage or current. The true in true RMS is there because these meters measure the RMS value, unlike average responding meters that rectify the signal and multiply the average by sqrt(2), which is only accurate for purely sinusoidal signals ('fake RMS').

If I press the 'Vac' button, then I expect to read the AC voltage, not AC+DC. This is important for for example ripple measurements. I don't mind an extra AC+DC feature, although I find sqrt(Vac^2+Vdc^2) as easy as switching to AC+DC mode. If AC+DC is important for you, then you should specifically look for this feature. It's not a standard feature, as you have found out.
 


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