New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th

[electrolust]

More thoughts, because, you know, I cannot help myself, and as always I like to think I have a viewpoint to add.

Like I said before, price is everything.

Sorry Dave I have to disagree that price is everything !! I bought a Rigol DS1054Z to do serial decode because it was cheap and everyone else was banging on about how good it was including yourself. But it was not until I used it myself in situ that I soon came up against some serious limitations and whilst it could decode a screens worth of serial data it was pretty much useless for lots of data that couldn't fit on the screen.

You are misreading Dave's statement and quoting it out of context.  He didn't say price is the only thing.  It should be obvious that by "everything" he means that you cannot leave price out of the equation when considering the merits of a product.  Which, unfortunately, I believe he did when comparing it to the Lecroy.

The Lecroy is actually not as good, at significantly more cost.  I'm a novice and am only judging it by the takedowns and rebuttals that I've read in this thread.  But it seems Lecroy is cheating a lot more on their spec sheet than the Tek.  IMHO and by Dave's own admission, he seems to be reacting more to the marketing than the actual product.

Lecroy aside, does any other vendor have anything close to this new scope, at this price?

[Someone]

Well, let's hope the developments behind this enterprise price level scope trickle down to sub $5000 range units.

Though not specific to this new high end Tek scope, my bet is that larger, touch screens will become the new norm even for the < $5k mid-range and eventually even entry level scopes. That will probably also mean fewer knobs and with the LED light coded vertical knob or some variation.

I'll be surprised if the next mid level scope from Rigol doesn't follow that trend and I'll bet the next update to Tek and Keysight's mid level scopes will have those features as well.

Screens (touch or not) are more expensive than physical controls, so unless there are some "big" advantages they wont replace physical controls in the low end.

[EEVblog]

Sorry Dave I have to disagree that price is everything !! I bought a Rigol DS1054Z to do serial decode because it was cheap and everyone else was banging on about how good it was including yourself. But it was not until I used it myself in situ that I soon came up against some serious limitations and whilst it could decode a screens worth of serial data it was pretty much useless for lots of data that couldn't fit on the screen.

You are misreading Dave's statement and quoting it out of context.  He didn't say price is the only thing.  It should be obvious that by "everything" he means that you cannot leave price out of the equation when considering the merits of a product.  Which, unfortunately, I believe he did when comparing it to the Lecroy.

I changed "price" to "price point" so it's more clear.
Products like test gear get put in categories based roughly on price point, if they did not then everyone would be talking about how wonderful their Lecroy HDO8000 was, or how they are debugging their Arduino with their Keysight Infiniium S-Series, or how slick their R&S RTO2000 looks next to their Hakko soldering iron.
Come on, lets all go out and buy the new game changing 2GHz Tek MSO58, it's only $40K ($30K if you want to skimp with the 1GHz version), and an extra $14K for the 8 logic probes, because you never know when you might need those 64 channels. And don't forget $3700 for the essential serial stuff.
On a real budget? Get the MSO56 with only 16 digital channels and serial decoding with the lousy 350MHz for only $23k. Watch the flood of reviews and hacks once countless people gets their hands on this puppy 

I can't believe we are even having this conversation.
Fanboy forum threads on high end scopes and other gear don't exist because they are out of the price point of almost all of us. The Tek 5-Series is a great scope, but it's no different.
Even if I was at my former companies with big budgets I'd be hard pressed to justify this scope for the lab.
This thread exists because of the marketing hype Tek whipped up, it worked 
And for the millionth time, I'm not bashing Tek or their awesome new scope.

Once all this hoopla dies down, no one on here or other forums and blogs will be talking about this scope any more because of price point. And there is nothing wrong with that, it's just the way it is.

[David Hess]

I don't see larger screens becoming common as they make the unit too big, taking up excessive bench space.

Same here. But higher res would be nice on MSO's, assuming they keep font sizes adequate.

Higher DPI would be nice but except in portable devices with small screens, the "retina" LCDs are not very common.  IBM produced one years ago and they have only recently become available again except for special applications like medical imaging.

Older DSOs which used CRTs often were higher resolution.  For a while HP had a custom raster CRT with doubled horizontal resolution.  One reason for that weird Tektronix color LCD shutter in their TDS series DSOs is that it produces much higher resolution than a color CRT of the same physical size.

Where this got insane was the oldest DSOs which used vector CRTs; they were often 1024x1024 and 254dpi while non-"retina" LCDs are less than half of that and around 72dpi is typical.  When you look at the display on a Tektronix 2230/2232, the vertical steps in the waveform are from the 8-bit ADC and not the display itself; every ADC step is displayed using 4 CRT steps.  Taking advantage of the higher resolution display required averaging to produce a higher resolution display record.  The spot size on these CRTs was not quite up to the task but the resolution improvement is very visible anyway.

[2N3055]

Unlike phones, that you can stick in your face, scopes will always be some distance from your eyes.. More than 100-120 DPI is wasted resolution.. It might sound cool, it might even look like  it is more clear, but it will give no additional information. Doubling resolution makes it 4 times harder for hardware to keep up with refresh rate and calculations.. It gets really hard and expensive real quick.... I have 24" screen 1920*1200 res and I have to get to 15-20cm to be able to start seeing pixels... When I sit normally, I can't..
I would rather them to make scope screen refresh at 100-200Hz and keep resolutions at realistic figures..

And what about screenless scope, like PC? DVI output, case with buttons, inputs, and maybe a small status screen. And you connect 35" screen if you like...

[stevelup]

Screens (touch or not) are more expensive than physical controls, so unless there are some "big" advantages they wont replace physical controls in the low end.

No, not in 2017 they're really not. A handful of half decent quality rotary encoders, a large PCB and a load of buttons and LEDs costs -way- more than a decent high resolution capacitive touch screen.

[JPortici]

I don't see larger screens becoming common as they make the unit too big, taking up excessive bench space.

though i'd like a 10 inch + touch + common controls so not too big to become the norm.

hey, wait a minute....

[Fungus]

Screens (touch or not) are more expensive than physical controls

Nope.

DSOs already have a screen. Making it higher DPI and touch would add almost nothing to the cost.

(in fact it might be cheaper to switch to a more modern screen than to continue using the "legacy" 'screen in a two year old 'scope design)

[Someone]

Screens (touch or not) are more expensive than physical controls, so unless there are some "big" advantages they wont replace physical controls in the low end.

No, not in 2017 they're really not. A handful of half decent quality rotary encoders, a large PCB and a load of buttons and LEDs costs -way- more than a decent high resolution capacitive touch screen.

Would you like to back that up with sources and pricing? I'm working on this sort of thing day to day, appropriate screens are much more expensive than you might think, its not a high volume consumer product that buys out capacity for a few months they need a stable supply of screens for years to support T&M products. Then you get other constraints like:
Operating Environment: 0 ºC to +50 ºC
A UI board with some encoders, membrane buttons, LEDs etc is much cheaper than screen space to replace it. If you just slap a touch digitiser on top of your existing screen then it would be cheaper than physical controls but thats not what people are talking about here.

Screens (touch or not) are more expensive than physical controls

Nope.

DSOs already have a screen. Making it higher DPI and touch would add almost nothing to the cost.

(in fact it might be cheaper to switch to a more modern screen than to continue using the "legacy" 'screen in a two year old 'scope design)

Take the whole quote, you had to manually remove the extra text which was:

Well, let's hope the developments behind this enterprise price level scope trickle down to sub $5000 range units.

Though not specific to this new high end Tek scope, my bet is that larger, touch screens will become the new norm even for the < $5k mid-range and eventually even entry level scopes. That will probably also mean fewer knobs and with the LED light coded vertical knob or some variation.

I'll be surprised if the next mid level scope from Rigol doesn't follow that trend and I'll bet the next update to Tek and Keysight's mid level scopes will have those features as well.

Screens (touch or not) are more expensive than physical controls, so unless there are some "big" advantages they wont replace physical controls in the low end.

Larger screens to replace controls are unlikely, even just high DPI requires more power/resources to drive it and those screens are more expensive which doesnt add up in a cost sensitive market.

[Someone]

The information is slowly getting put up, now you can access the "COMPETITIVE FACT SHEET" comparing Tektronix's view of it against Lecroy HDO-A, Keysight MSOS, and R&S RTO. They push the advantages of the Tek passive probes and the waveform update rate which includes nice graphs for the Lecroy and Keysight products (previously of significant dispute on this forum), this could be the scope that meets the needs of those people who want both fast teatime capture and deep memory in one product and hopefully reviews from the likes of The Signal Path can show some use cases and the tools for deep memory on the platform.

[Someone]

The big question is,how many ENOB does it have at 350,500,1000 and 2000MHz.

Its up in the RTO comparison document, a 7.5-7.6 enob right up to 1GHz, in high res mode. So not the leader in this specification but competitive.

[TK]

Does the new Tek 5 series offer remote web control like the RTB2000? 

[Hydron]

Does the new Tek 5 series offer remote web control like the RTB2000?

Datasheet says yes. If I recall correctly it also for once doesn't use the word "revolutionary" or "new" or "innovative" when describing it.

[exe]

Would you like to back that up with sources and pricing? I'm working on this sort of thing day to day, appropriate screens are much more expensive than you might think, its not a high volume consumer product that buys out capacity for a few months they need a stable supply of screens for years to support T&M products.

If they used standard laptop screens then replacing is not a problem even years after. But they use mate screen which is very rare... But may be different coating is not a problem, I dunno (may be it's just a film?).

I'm not sure why you mentioned temperature, it doesn't look like a field scope, nor the temperature range is specified in MSO58 datasheet.

[EEVblog]

The information is slowly getting put up, now you can access the "COMPETITIVE FACT SHEET" comparing Tektronix's view of it against Lecroy HDO-A, Keysight MSOS, and R&S RTO. They push the advantages of the Tek passive probes and the waveform update rate which includes nice graphs for the Lecroy and Keysight products (previously of significant dispute on this forum), this could be the scope that meets the needs of those people who want both fast teatime capture and deep memory in one product and hopefully reviews from the likes of The Signal Path can show some use cases and the tools for deep memory on the platform.

Link?

All I can find is the web page table which doesn't tell you much.

[Omicron]

Click on the "Fact Sheet" links at the top of the table:

http://www.tek.com/document/competitive/keysight-s-series-vs-5-series-mso-mixed-signal-oscilloscope-comparison
http://www.tek.com/document/competitive/lecroy-hdo6000a-hdo8000a-series-vs-5-series-mso-mixed-signal-oscilloscope-compa
http://www.tek.com/document/competitive/rohde-schwarz-rto2000-series-vs-5-series-mso-mixed-signal-oscillscope-compariso

[AR]

Hello Dave,


http://www.tek.com/oscilloscope/5-series-mso-mixed-signal-oscilloscope

scroll down and the comparisons start straight away.

[ebastler]

Hello Dave,


http://www.tek.com/oscilloscope/5-series-mso-mixed-signal-oscilloscope

scroll down and the comparisons start straight away.

No, they only start after you have clicked on the "Compare" tab. 
And that's probably "the web page table which doesn't tell you much" which Dave already referred to?

[nctnico]

I don't see larger screens becoming common as they make the unit too big, taking up excessive bench space.

I wouldn't mind a bigger screen. The knobs can be removed to make space.

[JanJansen]

To expensive for a teardown ?

[BrianH_Tektronix]

Does the new Tek 5 series offer remote web control like the RTB2000?

Datasheet says yes. If I recall correctly it also for once doesn't use the word "revolutionary" or "new" or "innovative" when describing it.

The 5 Series MSO does offer a new remote web interface. It has fast response times, easy to access and control from a web browser or MS remote desktop and performs just like you're in front of the scope. I've tested up to 6 people (i'm sure more works just fine) can be remoted into it at once with no problems. Its LXI compatible and one of the best remote experiences i've seen on the market.   

[David Hess]

Unlike phones, that you can stick in your face, scopes will always be some distance from your eyes.. More than 100-120 DPI is wasted resolution.. It might sound cool, it might even look like  it is more clear, but it will give no additional information. Doubling resolution makes it 4 times harder for hardware to keep up with refresh rate and calculations.. It gets really hard and expensive real quick.... I have 24" screen 1920*1200 res and I have to get to 15-20cm to be able to start seeing pixels... When I sit normally, I can't..
I would rather them to make scope screen refresh at 100-200Hz and keep resolutions at realistic figures..

Rendering the display record should be parallelizable though so the performance will eventually be there.

I have noticed before however that the index graded displays on most modern DSOs do not look as good as they should.  I assume some short cuts are being made converting the acquisition record to the display record to preserve performance.

[electrolust]

Screens (touch or not) are more expensive than physical controls, so unless there are some "big" advantages they wont replace physical controls in the low end.

No, not in 2017 they're really not. A handful of half decent quality rotary encoders, a large PCB and a load of buttons and LEDs costs -way- more than a decent high resolution capacitive touch screen.

That's just the hardware cost.  Don't forget the cost to develop good software (UI) around the touch screen.  Maybe that's a sunk cost though, since even if you have a small screen it's going to be touch.

[mtdoc]

Screens (touch or not) are more expensive than physical controls, so unless there are some "big" advantages they wont replace physical controls in the low end.

No, not in 2017 they're really not. A handful of half decent quality rotary encoders, a large PCB and a load of buttons and LEDs costs -way- more than a decent high resolution capacitive touch screen.

That's just the hardware cost.  Don't forget the cost to develop good software (UI) around the touch screen.  Maybe that's a sunk cost though, since even if you have a small screen it's going to be touch.

Well, since I can buy an Android tablet with a 10.1" 1024 x 600 capacitive touch screen for $60, it seems hard to believe that the hardware cost is preventing these from being implemented on low to mid range scopes.  Software development costs money of course, but any new scope will require that, large or small screen, touch or not.

[snoopy]

Click on the "Fact Sheet" links at the top of the table:

http://www.tek.com/document/competitive/keysight-s-series-vs-5-series-mso-mixed-signal-oscilloscope-comparison
http://www.tek.com/document/competitive/lecroy-hdo6000a-hdo8000a-series-vs-5-series-mso-mixed-signal-oscilloscope-compa
http://www.tek.com/document/competitive/rohde-schwarz-rto2000-series-vs-5-series-mso-mixed-signal-oscillscope-compariso

The gloves are off 

The dismal waveform update rate of 700 waveforms/sec on the Lecroy is pretty concerning !!