New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th

[Omicron]

Look at the existing MDO 16 channel login connector, it's barely bigger than a Flex Channel input.
Now look at the dead space  between the 8th Flex input and the USB connectors (why 3?), there is plenty for space for at least one 16ch connector on the main PCB. Several more is you stacked them.

One nice thing about Tek's full size logic analysers is that they have an analog mux. This allows you to view any digital channel with a scope you attach to the analog output BNC of the logic analyser. You don't have to attach a separate analog probe, this is a real handy feature in some cases. Off course the digital probes that support this aren't cheap as they are active probes with really good analog performance as well. I wonder though if this new connector design is intended to allow them to do the same on this scope: i.e. bring out a probe that allows you to inspect any of the digital channels in the analog domain.

[Fungus]

look at the dead space  between the 8th Flex input and the USB connectors

Yeah, is there a reason they aren't centered or neatly spaced?

[Omicron]

Yeah, is there a reason they aren't centered or neatly spaced?

Maybe they are keeping the space vacant for an N-connector for the future MDO version. Or maybe they plan to add an AWG.

But likely it's done just so folks can obsess about it online. After all, if a new Tek product got praised by the online experts the world would suddenly grind to a halt. No doubt their legal department advised against causing such a catalism and insisted on baking in the mandatory annoyances to make sure the universe remains balanced 

[effectivebits]

I like the 12-bit ADC, the 1080p large screen and the 500uV vertical. Not enough to justify the ridiculous pricing though.

I like the new scope, you've got to give Tek props for continuing to bring out new designs on what would have been a massive design effort on this one.
Although to be honest I don't see anything really new here.
It's not the first big touch screen scope.
It's not the first 8 channel scope.
It doesn't leverage their existing MDO technology (deliberate so as not to erode their existing market)

Ok, the Flex Channel is new and unique, but like I've said I don't see how it actually adds any real practical value.
If they allowed you to switch one of the 8 digital inputs into the ADC system and view the actual analog signal then that would have been a really handy feature. i.e. no need to re-probe or dual-probe. But all it is is a different way to connect your digital probes.

Joel from Tek here.  Nothing I can say won't come off as biased of course, but having seen first hand the use cases for FlexChannels, I'm pretty excited about it.  When you buy test equipment, you should think about the measurement need first.  What do I need to measure, and then what equipment comes closest to measuring it?  I've heard statements from engineers like, "Well I need to look at more than 16 channels, so I need a logic analyzer".  But that engineer didn't need state mode clocking, multi-state triggering, etc.  In truth, that engineer needed a 32+ channel MSO, not a logic analyzer.  I actually corrected people who called the MSO a "scope plus logic analyzer" because it didn't have true logic analyzer features.  Just needing >16 channels doesn't automatically mean logic analyzer, but until today, that was the equipment available.

Many of these applications also want to monitor some voltages, currents etc.  A Tektronix logic analyzer COULD do that when tied to a scope with an iView cable, but if you don't need state mode clocking, it's far nicer to have it all on one screen.  The nice thing about FlexChannels is that first you can have essentially a 64 channel MSO, but you can switch based on your measurement need as well and mix and match.

As an RF designer, I could also see some cool applications of monitoring 16-bit I and Q (32 bits in total) but also the baseband differential IQ signals.  Also useful for ADC and DAC design applications.

I've also seen plenty of applications where there is an interaction with a bus that requires 1+ GHz of BW (USB, Ethernet), but also lots of other signals running around the board.  I've also seen a lot of MSO users who never touch channels 3 and 4 - they use 1 or 2 analog channels and just the digital pod.  If you have an 8 channel "flex channel" scope, you can quickly decide what that given debug task requires and scale up or down without grabbing another scope.

It's also just a fun scope to touch and use, but that is totally subjective.

By the way, the inputs of this scope are totally compatible with TekVPI.  The digital pod adds to the bottom, but the TekVPI probes plug in as normal.  There is also a TekVPI adapter for your older circular style Tektronix probes.

[EEVblog]

look at the dead space  between the 8th Flex input and the USB connectors

Yeah, is there a reason they aren't centered or neatly spaced?

It would have been really nice to have a dedicated channel button above each input connector.

[David Hess]

Can someone please explain to me the advantage of this over just having normal external digital connectors? Why the need for an entirely new probe system?

So they can charge more for the probes?

Less pins to bend in the connector.

Bent pins are the least of your worries when giant probe modules are used with the VPI interface; I always worried about bent BNCs.

[EEVblog]

Joel from Tek here.

Thanks for joining us

Nothing I can say won't come off as biased of course, but having seen first hand the use cases for FlexChannels, I'm pretty excited about it.  When you buy test equipment, you should think about the measurement need first.  What do I need to measure, and then what equipment comes closest to measuring it?  I've heard statements from engineers like, "Well I need to look at more than 16 channels, so I need a logic analyzer".  But that engineer didn't need state mode clocking, multi-state triggering, etc.  In truth, that engineer needed a 32+ channel MSO, not a logic analyzer.  I actually corrected people who called the MSO a "scope plus logic analyzer" because it didn't have true logic analyzer features.  Just needing >16 channels doesn't automatically mean logic analyzer, but until today, that was the equipment available.

Sure but you have not explained what practical difference the Flex Channel makes over having the 8 analog channels + 4 existing 16CH digital connectors as used on your other scopes?
I'm not talking about having 64 digital channels, I'm talking about having them combined with the analog.

The nice thing about FlexChannels is that first you can have essentially a 64 channel MSO

No, you can't!
If you have 64 digital channels then you have zero analog channels, ergo, no more "mixed signal"

but you can switch based on your measurement need as well and mix and match.

You can do that with existing MSO scopes with separate analog and digital input connector.
Again, what practical advantage does the Flex Channel actually give you over existing input connectors?

I've also seen a lot of MSO users who never touch channels 3 and 4 - they use 1 or 2 analog channels and just the digital pod.  If you have an 8 channel "flex channel" scope, you can quickly decide what that given debug task requires and scale up or down without grabbing another scope.

You could have done that without Flex Channel.
And you could do this 5 years ago with Yokogawa:
http://tmi.yokogawa.com/ea/about/news/new-8-channel-mixed-signal-oscilloscope-from-yokogawa/
Albeit only 24 digital channels vs your potential 64 (that is reduced by 8 for every analog channel you need)

When I saw this Flex Channel thing the first thing that came to my mind was "You mean I have to give up an analog channel to get digital inputs? That sucks! Why couldn't they have just used separate inputs? On such a huge scope, were they really that desperate for space?".

It's also just a fun scope to touch and use, but that is totally subjective.

No doubt.

By the way, the inputs of this scope are totally compatible with TekVPI.  The digital pod adds to the bottom, but the TekVPI probes plug in as normal.  There is also a TekVPI adapter for your older circular style Tektronix probes.

Cool, someone was thinking.

[Hydron]

By the way, the inputs of this scope are totally compatible with TekVPI.  The digital pod adds to the bottom, but the TekVPI probes plug in as normal.  There is also a TekVPI adapter for your older circular style Tektronix probes.

Cool, someone was thinking.

Someone was thinking about how much they could make by forcing a move to a new interface. The adapter is over $500 for what is effectively an offset DAC plus a few small DC-DC converters. I have a friend who was forced to buy one to use existing kit and he was real pissed off when he found out how much it was. $500 isn't much compared to the price of this scope, but it is compared to the cost of lower end TekVPI kit.

[djnz]

There is also a TekVPI adapter for your older circular style Tektronix probes.

 ... which is listed at $535 EACH (per channel) on testequity (TPA-BNC).

Yes, I know I am not the target customer for this. Even then, that's just daylight robbery.
 

[abraxa]

I've also seen a lot of MSO users who never touch channels 3 and 4 - they use 1 or 2 analog channels and just the digital pod.  If you have an 8 channel "flex channel" scope, you can quickly decide what that given debug task requires and scale up or down without grabbing another scope.

You could have done that without Flex Channel.
And you could do this 5 years ago with Yokogawa:
http://tmi.yokogawa.com/ea/about/news/new-8-channel-mixed-signal-oscilloscope-from-yokogawa/
Albeit only 24 digital channels vs your potential 64 (that is reduced by 8 for every analog channel you need)

So for the 32-channel example (16-bit I/Q), one would have to give up 4 analog channels on the Tek scope (8 bit per channel, right?), resulting in 4a+32d channels. Aside from Yokogawa's solution, LeCroy's MSO option provides a 4a+36d combination for a decade already, too. I'm surprised Tek makes such a big deal about it.

[effectivebits]

If you configure a 6 channel scope with 2 8-channel input connectors, it is essentially the same as a 4 channel MSO.  The "practical" advantage is that you can decide one day to trade off that 4th channel for an additional 8 bits if the application requires it.

As for 64 channel MSO, you are technically correct.  I was using the term MSO to mean "async logic analyzer", but you are right it does mean "mixed signal oscilloscope".
So to be precise, if you buy an 8 channel 5 series scope, you can have a....

64 channel asynchronous logic analyzer
1 channel MSO with 56 digital channels
2 channel MSO with 48 digital channels
3 channel MSO with 40 digital channels
4 channel MSO with 32 digital channels
5 channel MSO with 24 digital channels
6 channel MSO with 16 digital channels 
7 channel MSO with 8 digital channels
8 channel oscilloscope with no digital channels

An existing MSO is a 4 channel MSO with 16 digital channels.

I guess the addition of a 16 channel digital pod as well would enable 8 analog channels plus 16 digital channels.  It doesn't sound too common of a use case, but I'd love for you to share if you have one!

 

[EEVblog]

When you buy test equipment, you should think about the measurement need first.  What do I need to measure, and then what equipment comes closest to measuring it? 

and then this:

I've also seen plenty of applications where there is an interaction with a bus that requires 1+ GHz of BW (USB, Ethernet), but also lots of other signals running around the board.  I've also seen a lot of MSO users who never touch channels 3 and 4 - they use 1 or 2 analog channels and just the digital pod.  If you have an 8 channel "flex channel" scope, you can quickly decide what that given debug task requires and scale up or down without grabbing another scope.

So you want people to "think about their measurement need", and then go out and buy the top of the line expensive ($21k-$41k + $1800 per digital probe pod) MSO 8 channel job for the "flexability"? 

If that poor schmuck bought the 4CH MSO54, then they'd have to lose 2 analog channels (leaving 2) to get a pretty standard 16CH MSO.
Mr Schmuck has just paid US$16,200 for a 300MHz 2+16CH MSO.
Keysight's MSOX3034T 4+16CH is only $10k, and it gives you 2 extra analog channels.

Welcome to the forum 

[nctnico]

Joel from Tek here.  Nothing I can say won't come off as biased of course, but having seen first hand the use cases for FlexChannels, I'm pretty excited about it.  When you buy test equipment, you should think about the measurement need first.  What do I need to measure, and then what equipment comes closest to measuring it?  I've heard statements from engineers like, "Well I need to look at more than 16 channels, so I need a logic analyzer".  But that engineer didn't need state mode clocking, multi-state triggering, etc.  In truth, that engineer needed a 32+ channel MSO, not a logic analyzer.  I actually corrected people who called the MSO a "scope plus logic analyzer" because it didn't have true logic analyzer features.

With that many digital channels I'd like to see some typical logic analyser functions like grouping signals into a bus and display as number, text or even as a signal. Also some logic-analyser type triggering and digital signal analysis functions (counting edges) might be useful. BTW I have a Tektronix logic analyser and a module with analog outputs and I often use this together with an oscilloscope as a mixed signal solution with several digital channels. However with today's digital logic 16 channels is often more than enough because most of the logic is inside an FPGA or CPLD anyway.

[EEVblog]

If you configure a 6 channel scope with 2 8-channel input connectors, it is essentially the same as a 4 channel MSO.  The "practical" advantage is that you can decide one day to trade off that 4th channel for an additional 8 bits if the application requires it.

As for 64 channel MSO, you are technically correct.  I was using the term MSO to mean "async logic analyzer", but you are right it does mean "mixed signal oscilloscope".
So to be precise, if you buy an 8 channel 5 series scope, you can have a....

64 channel asynchronous logic analyzer
1 channel MSO with 56 digital channels
2 channel MSO with 48 digital channels
3 channel MSO with 40 digital channels
4 channel MSO with 32 digital channels
5 channel MSO with 24 digital channels
6 channel MSO with 16 digital channels 
7 channel MSO with 8 digital channels
8 channel oscilloscope with no digital channels

An existing MSO is a 4 channel MSO with 16 digital channels.

I guess the addition of a 16 channel digital pod as well would enable 8 analog channels plus 16 digital channels.  It doesn't sound too common of a use case, but I'd love for you to share if you have one!

 

Seriously?
Your solution is forcing people to trade off (expensive!) analog channels for digital inputs.
Your solution is forcing people to in many cases opt for much more expensive higher channel models just to get MSO capability. (see my previous post)
This is not an advantage, it is a disadvantage compared with existing MSO designs.
You could have decided to not to go with this new Flex Channel system and easily (probably easier design wise?) put 4 x existing 16 channel probe connectors on the scope. Heck, even 2 small existing connectors to give 32 channels would have been fantastic.

[David Hess]

If they allowed you to switch one of the 8 digital inputs into the ADC system and view the actual analog signal then that would have been a really handy feature. i.e. no need to re-probe or dual-probe. But all it is is a different way to connect your digital probes.

If the memory is shared then the 8 digital signals or the analog signal could be captured but not both at the same time.  And now there is *another* expensive probe which has to support both by multiplexing the signal inside the probe; the oscilloscope cannot do the multiplexing because the logic probe signal path through the VPI connector is going to compromise the analog performance compared to the BNC.

I suspect an instrument like the discontinued TLS216 (see below) would be more economical.

One nice thing about Tek's full size logic analysers is that they have an analog mux. This allows you to view any digital channel with a scope you attach to the analog output BNC of the logic analyser. You don't have to attach a separate analog probe, this is a real handy feature in some cases.

I never used one myself but I know people who have fond memories of the Tektronix TLS216 "logic scope" which was a 16 channel 500MHz 2GS/s DSO in disguise.

[effectivebits]

Joel from Tek here.  Nothing I can say won't come off as biased of course, but having seen first hand the use cases for FlexChannels, I'm pretty excited about it.  When you buy test equipment, you should think about the measurement need first.  What do I need to measure, and then what equipment comes closest to measuring it?  I've heard statements from engineers like, "Well I need to look at more than 16 channels, so I need a logic analyzer".  But that engineer didn't need state mode clocking, multi-state triggering, etc.  In truth, that engineer needed a 32+ channel MSO, not a logic analyzer.  I actually corrected people who called the MSO a "scope plus logic analyzer" because it didn't have true logic analyzer features.

With that many digital channels I'd like to see some typical logic analyser functions like grouping signals into a bus and display as number, text or even as a signal. Also some logic-analyser type triggering and digital signal analysis functions (counting edges) might be useful. BTW I have a Tektronix logic analyser and a module with analog outputs and I often use this together with an oscilloscope as a mixed signal solution with several digital channels. However with today's digital logic 16 channels is often more than enough because most of the logic is inside an FPGA or CPLD anyway.

You can group them into a bus, and I believe the bus can be synchronously decoded as well.  The signals are still acquired asynchronously, but the bus decode can be clocked on an external signal.  You can also trigger on the bus value.

The new measurement system is remarkable and I THINK it can edge count, but perhaps W2AEW can check it for me since he has a scope available and I don't.

There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.

Awesome tag line.  I always tell people that the probe is not a magic wand!  You have to understand how the measurement is being taken to actually understand what you are seeing on screen!

[EEVblog]

I guess the addition of a 16 channel digital pod as well would enable 8 analog channels plus 16 digital channels.  It doesn't sound too common of a use case, but I'd love for you to share if you have one!

Err, modern digital systems (e.g. FPGA's + High speed Processors) that would require many digital channels commonly have up to half a dozen supply rails.
Many people complain that existing 4+16 channel scopes are often not enough. e.g. if you have a clock and 3 power rails then you are done.

Don't try and justify your reason to go with the trade-off Flex Channel design is because there isn't a usage case for 8+digital, you will lose spectacularly.
If there isn't a common usage case for 8 analog channels+ digital, then why did you design an 8 channel scope and think it's a "game changer"?

And as others have pointed out, 16 channels is usually more than enough for most MSO uses. I'd argue that the usage case for 64 channel digital is much smaller than 8+16. And as I've pointed out, your 64 channel solution leaves zero analog channels which is ridiculous.

You've invented a system (Flex channel) that costs more in physical cost hardware, forces people to buy new probes, and potentially forces people to spend more to get basic MSO functionality like 4+16. Sorry, I see it ultimately as a 

[effectivebits]

Just to clarify, existing TekVPI probes you bought for the past decade PLUS work without an adapter.

The probe on the left is TekVPI and works on the 5 series with no adapter.

The probe on the right is the older style Tek interface and requires an adapter.

[EEVblog]

Just to clarify, existing TekVPI probes you bought for the past decade PLUS work without an adapter.

Shame the existing logic probes you bought won't work.

[TK]

If you configure a 6 channel scope with 2 8-channel input connectors, it is essentially the same as a 4 channel MSO.  The "practical" advantage is that you can decide one day to trade off that 4th channel for an additional 8 bits if the application requires it.

As for 64 channel MSO, you are technically correct.  I was using the term MSO to mean "async logic analyzer", but you are right it does mean "mixed signal oscilloscope".
So to be precise, if you buy an 8 channel 5 series scope, you can have a....

64 channel asynchronous logic analyzer
1 channel MSO with 56 digital channels
2 channel MSO with 48 digital channels
3 channel MSO with 40 digital channels
4 channel MSO with 32 digital channels
5 channel MSO with 24 digital channels
6 channel MSO with 16 digital channels 
7 channel MSO with 8 digital channels
8 channel oscilloscope with no digital channels

An existing MSO is a 4 channel MSO with 16 digital channels.

I guess the addition of a 16 channel digital pod as well would enable 8 analog channels plus 16 digital channels.  It doesn't sound too common of a use case, but I'd love for you to share if you have one!

 

Does Tek charge extra for each 8 digital channels or is included for free for each Analog Channel I purchase?

[sibeen]

If you configure a 6 channel scope with 2 8-channel input connectors, it is essentially the same as a 4 channel MSO.  The "practical" advantage is that you can decide one day to trade off that 4th channel for an additional 8 bits if the application requires it.

As for 64 channel MSO, you are technically correct.  I was using the term MSO to mean "async logic analyzer", but you are right it does mean "mixed signal oscilloscope".
So to be precise, if you buy an 8 channel 5 series scope, you can have a....

64 channel asynchronous logic analyzer
1 channel MSO with 56 digital channels
2 channel MSO with 48 digital channels
3 channel MSO with 40 digital channels
4 channel MSO with 32 digital channels
5 channel MSO with 24 digital channels
6 channel MSO with 16 digital channels 
7 channel MSO with 8 digital channels
8 channel oscilloscope with no digital channels

An existing MSO is a 4 channel MSO with 16 digital channels.

I guess the addition of a 16 channel digital pod as well would enable 8 analog channels plus 16 digital channels.  It doesn't sound too common of a use case, but I'd love for you to share if you have one!

 

Does Tek charge extra for each 8 digital channels or is included for free for each Analog Channel I purchase?

No, the digital facility is completely free of charge and comes standard with the cro.

Unfortunately the probe required to connect to the interface is obviously a delicate and expensive item that they just cannot give away, but as a one time offer they are pricing each probe at just north > US$1K.  Mate, but three or four, you won't regret it,

[EEVblog]

Unfortunately the probe required to connect to the interface is obviously a delicate and expensive item that they just cannot give away, but as a one time offer they are pricing each probe at just north > US$1K.  Mate, but three or four, you won't regret it,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but previous MSO scopes like the MDO3000/4000, MSO3000 etc are all "MSO" scopes and they come with the 16 channel digital probe for free.
But the new "MSO" 54/56/58, although sold as an "MSO" do not come with digital probes, and it will cost you $1800 extra for each 8 channels, or $3600 extra for what you got for free with existing "MSO" Tek scopes?
If so, should these not be sold as "DSO54/6/8"?

[EEVblog]

Does Tek charge extra for each 8 digital channels or is included for free for each Analog Channel I purchase?

It is not included, $1800 for 8 channels.

Included with MSO54: four (4) passive probes (TPP0500B with 350 MHz & 500 MHz, TPP1000 with 1 GHz & 2 GHz models), calibration certificate, installation and safety manual, accessory pouch with integrated front cover, mouse and power cord.

I predict Tek will do a complete about-face on this and throw them in as standard in very short order.
Last time I made a call on this was the MDO3000. I said sales would tank if they didn't include the SA for free. What do you know, 6 months later they threw it in for free as standard

[nctnico]

I agree Dave has a good point regarding the shared analog/digital inputs. I guess it has to do with sharing memory between the analog and digital acquisition systems. However from a user's point of view it would have been much better to have seperate logic probe inputs which would allow to use existing logic input pods so it is easier to upgrade/share from existing Tektronix hardware. Maybe it is a good idea to always sell the 8 channel hardware but disable analog channels while allowing to use them as digital input channels otherwise you'll be eating away precious analog channels on a 4 channel scope when connecting logic input pods.

[TK]

If you configure a 6 channel scope with 2 8-channel input connectors, it is essentially the same as a 4 channel MSO.  The "practical" advantage is that you can decide one day to trade off that 4th channel for an additional 8 bits if the application requires it.

As for 64 channel MSO, you are technically correct.  I was using the term MSO to mean "async logic analyzer", but you are right it does mean "mixed signal oscilloscope".
So to be precise, if you buy an 8 channel 5 series scope, you can have a....

64 channel asynchronous logic analyzer
1 channel MSO with 56 digital channels
2 channel MSO with 48 digital channels
3 channel MSO with 40 digital channels
4 channel MSO with 32 digital channels
5 channel MSO with 24 digital channels
6 channel MSO with 16 digital channels 
7 channel MSO with 8 digital channels
8 channel oscilloscope with no digital channels

An existing MSO is a 4 channel MSO with 16 digital channels.

I guess the addition of a 16 channel digital pod as well would enable 8 analog channels plus 16 digital channels.  It doesn't sound too common of a use case, but I'd love for you to share if you have one!

 

Does Tek charge extra for each 8 digital channels or is included for free for each Analog Channel I purchase?

No, the digital facility is completely free of charge and comes standard with the cro.

Unfortunately the probe required to connect to the interface is obviously a delicate and expensive item that they just cannot give away, but as a one time offer they are pricing each probe at just north > US$1K.  Mate, but three or four, you won't regret it,

So it is actually a ransom payment to be able to use a feature that is already included