Author Topic: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - Zeeweii DSO2512G  (Read 134267 times)

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Online Aldo22

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #150 on: April 23, 2023, 04:59:41 pm »
Thank you!

Can you try to measure some known source for a sine wave with dummy load?
What exactly would you like to see?
I tried the TinySA as a signal generator yesterday and the sweep was quite smooth and quiet.
Screenshots with load resistor and coax are here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-2ch-pocket-dsosg-sigpeak-dso2512g/msg4827305/#msg4827305
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-2ch-pocket-dsosg-sigpeak-dso2512g/msg4827812/#msg4827812


you can use some LPF filter with cut-off at about 20-30 MHz on the input to fix that issue. Do you have LPF filter for testing?
No, I don't.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2023, 05:03:21 pm by Aldo22 »
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #151 on: April 23, 2023, 05:14:22 pm »
You can use some LPF filter with cut-off at about 20-30 MHz on the input to fix that issue. Do you have LPF filter for testing?

In order to use LPF filter, put it between pass-through dummy load and coax cable. Pass-through dummy load should be connected directly on device input connector.

There is needs to experiment with LPF filters with different cut-off frequency to check which cut-off frequency allows it to work stable with si5351 square wave output. You can try test LPF with the following cut-off: 10 MHz, 30 MHz, 50 MHz and 100 MHz.
Can you show me on Aliexpress what filters those would be?
I need to place an order anyway because of the attenuators for the TinySA
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/4001211420560.html

Thank you!
 

Online tatel

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #152 on: April 23, 2023, 05:29:28 pm »
Can you show me on Aliexpress what filters those would be?
I need to place an order anyway because of the attenuators for the TinySA
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/4001211420560.html

You are wise taking radiolistener's advice. I myself could get one/some of these. Problem is, these things have a quite broad price range, and some cost almost as much as DSO2512. I'm pretty sure there are some much pricier. No wonder some OEMs rather prefer to have increased bandwidth instead.

radiolistener, could you kindly give some advice about which one to choose? Perhaps a DIY kit or even a schematic?

That's what a quick search throwed to me:

https://aliexpress.com/item/1005004174248585.html
https://aliexpress.com/item/1005004277984511.html
https://aliexpress.com/item/1005001707340385.html
https://aliexpress.com/item/1005004174121717.html
https://aliexpress.com/item/1005002745505287.html
https://aliexpress.com/item/1005005033489578.html
 
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Online wasedadoc

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #153 on: April 23, 2023, 05:58:44 pm »
Can you show me on Aliexpress what filters those would be?
I need to place an order anyway because of the attenuators for the TinySA
https://de.aliexpress.com/item/4001211420560.html

You are wise taking radiolistener's advice. I myself could get one/some of these. Problem is, these things have a quite broad price range, and some cost almost as much as DSO2512. I'm pretty sure there are some much pricier. No wonder some OEMs rather prefer to have increased bandwidth instead.

radiolistener, could you kindly give some advice about which one to choose? Perhaps a DIY kit or even a schematic?

That's what a quick search throwed to me:

https://aliexpress.com/item/1005004174248585.html
https://aliexpress.com/item/1005004277984511.html
https://aliexpress.com/item/1005001707340385.html
https://aliexpress.com/item/1005004174121717.html
https://aliexpress.com/item/1005002745505287.html
https://aliexpress.com/item/1005005033489578.html
Of those, the first would be the most appropriate if you think you really will be in situations which require one.
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #154 on: April 23, 2023, 06:08:14 pm »
Of those, the first would be the most appropriate if you think you really will be in situations which require one.
Thank you.
On the other hand, these all have SMA connectors.
In "real life" I will use the probes with BNC.
I'm not sure if this investment makes sense, just to test the equipment.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2023, 06:18:47 pm by Aldo22 »
 

Online tatel

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #155 on: April 23, 2023, 06:22:13 pm »
Of those, the first would be the most appropriate if you think you really will be in situations which require one.
Thank you.
On the other hand, these all have SMA connectors.
In "real life" I will use the probes with BNC.
I'm not sure if this investment makes sense, just to test the devices.

I think you'll find many things have SMA connectors. Time to begin your collection of adapters: Probe to BNC, BNC to banana, BNC to SMA, BNC to N, BNC female to BNC female, and so on... fortunately you'll probably need no more than one of two of each...
 
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Offline radiolistener

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #156 on: April 23, 2023, 06:30:39 pm »
radiolistener, could you kindly give some advice about which one to choose? Perhaps a DIY kit or even a schematic?

The good one is here:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32952307624.html

You can buy it more cheap on original page here:
https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=SLP-30%2B

This is a really good LPF. But it's cost too much for a toy.
Some time ago this seller provided cheap LPF with metal enclosure and different cut-off at about 10-15 USD and it was possible to ask for LPF with specific cut-off:
https://robot.aliexpress.com/store/1800910

But now he removed pages with LPF filters and I don't see good LPF on aliexpress. You can try to ask seller, may be he can add page for LPF on aliexperss.

You can build LPF filter as a DIY, it will be much cheaper. In order to calculate it you can use RFSim99 software. Or use some online calculator for LPF.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2023, 06:46:32 pm by radiolistener »
 
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Online tatel

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #157 on: April 23, 2023, 07:09:30 pm »

Some time ago this seller provided cheap LPF with metal enclosure and different cut-off at about 10-15 USD and it was possible to ask for LPF with specific cut-off:
https://robot.aliexpress.com/store/1800910

But now he removed pages with LPF filters and I don't see good LPF on aliexpress. You can try to ask seller, may be he can add page for LPF on aliexperss.

You can build LPF filter as a DIY, it will be much cheaper. In order to calculate it you can use RFSim99 software. Or use some online calculator for LPF.

This one seems to do exactly that. Perhaps you didn't noticed? Or do you think these can't be considered good filters?

https://aliexpress.com/item/1005004174121717.html

Anyway, I think I'll go the DIY way, not because cheaper, but because it looks like a good project to learn a couple things. I put it on the to-do list

Thank you very much
 

Online wasedadoc

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #158 on: April 23, 2023, 08:30:46 pm »

Some time ago this seller provided cheap LPF with metal enclosure and different cut-off at about 10-15 USD and it was possible to ask for LPF with specific cut-off:
https://robot.aliexpress.com/store/1800910

But now he removed pages with LPF filters and I don't see good LPF on aliexpress. You can try to ask seller, may be he can add page for LPF on aliexperss.

You can build LPF filter as a DIY, it will be much cheaper. In order to calculate it you can use RFSim99 software. Or use some online calculator for LPF.

This one seems to do exactly that. Perhaps you didn't noticed? Or do you think these can't be considered good filters?

https://aliexpress.com/item/1005004174121717.html

Anyway, I think I'll go the DIY way, not because cheaper, but because it looks like a good project to learn a couple things. I put it on the to-do list

Thank you very much
That one is intended for use between a transmitter and aerial (antenna) t0 reduce undesirable frequencies being transmitted.  That is why it mentions 200 Watt.  That is the maximum power it can handle.
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #159 on: April 23, 2023, 09:42:08 pm »
This one seems to do exactly that. Perhaps you didn't noticed? Or do you think these can't be considered good filters?

https://aliexpress.com/item/1005004174121717.html

I think this one is not as good as one that I shared link above.
This one is intended for a high power signal transfer (for transmitters), as you can see it is intended for signal power up to 200 Watt.
The difference with one that I shared is a frequency response and attenuation at stop band, and size...

You can use this one. It also should work ok, but it is too large and has UHF connectors which is not convenient.

Anyway, I think I'll go the DIY way, not because cheaper, but because it looks like a good project to learn a couple things. I put it on the to-do list

yes, it will be nice quest, but note - high order filters is too hard to tune. To avoid complexity, use 7-order LPF. If it still too hard, you can reduce and use 5-order LPF, it will have worse performance, but it will be easier to tune.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2023, 09:50:27 pm by radiolistener »
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #160 on: April 24, 2023, 09:45:54 am »
I'm still having a bit of a hard time classifying the issues and judging if any of this is even relevant in the context of my toy.
It's my first experience with oscilloscopes, I got it about 3 months ago.

When I look at the signal that my toy shows me (attachment, Si5351, load resistor and probe in 1x mode) and compare it with the picture of the professionals from Adafruit using a "real" oscilloscope, I don't see much difference in how the signal is displayed (OK, the frequency is higher there and the resolution is better, but...).
These people are not beginners like I am, I assume.

I appreciate the sound knowledge which can be found in this forum and do not doubt that the objections are all correct, but aren't we a little too picky with this toy and with me as a newbie?

Once again, I would like to thank everyone for patiently answering my beginner questions.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2023, 11:13:22 am by Aldo22 »
 

Online tatel

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #161 on: April 24, 2023, 11:24:40 am »
Oh, boy. Things like "now we know why bandwidt changes: it's because signal amplitude changes" don't help. It's not only you. Just go to the toyscopes thread and see where I screwed it. So one must make sure  brains are working sooner than the keyboard.

The toy... well, if you say something like "this has 120 MHz bandwidth" it's better to have the knowledge and means to demonstrate it. Otherwise, see my previous pint. Do you remenber how I asked for evidence supporting it couldn't work even at 5MHz? This applies to *everybody* and *everything*

Nice screenshot BTW. I think it's the first time you post a square wave? Until now, I was not sure your source signal could do it. You are doing better.
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #162 on: April 25, 2023, 08:51:30 am »
¡Caramba!
No entiendo nada de lo que dices.  ;)

Oh, boy. Things like "now we know why bandwidt changes: it's because signal amplitude changes" don't help.
I said "And now there is also an explanation why there are such different opinions about the bandwidth: the amplitude."
Don't know what's wrong with this.
It was a way to say thanks to 4thDoctorWhoFan for finding this problem.
If it is true, it reveals a flaw in the DSO2512G.
It explains why we got different results.
It means that we should pay attention to the amplitude and if possible, investigate this further.
I didn't know that before and I probably wouldn't have thought of it.
It may not help you, but it helps me.


The toy... well, if you say something like "this has 120 MHz bandwidth" it's better to have the knowledge and means to demonstrate it.
I don't know what you mean here. I didn't invent the 120MHz, that is the specification of the manufacturer.
Until something else is proven, "In dubio pro reo" applies.  ;)

According to my understanding, bandwidth has something to do with -3dB or roughly 70%.
For example, if I measure the amplitude at 500KHz and it is 314mV, then the limit would be about 219mV.
I measure 239mV at 120MHz, so that's still a little higher. (Please see Attachments! Coax, dummy load, TinySA at -7.0dBm).
With probes or filters, the system bandwidth may change, of course.
What is the bandwidth definition you are referring to?

Nice screenshot BTW. I think it's the first time you post a square wave? Until now, I was not sure your source signal could do it. You are doing better.
Are you joking? I've posted tons of square waves even before this toy discussion had started.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-2ch-pocket-dsosg-sigpeak-dso2512g/msg4783148/#msg4783148

Cheers!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 09:30:04 am by Aldo22 »
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #163 on: April 25, 2023, 11:35:56 am »
Aldo22

There is analog bandwidth, which you can measure with sine wave by sweeping from 0 Hz and up, the first frequency where aplitude drops down below -3 dB will be analog bandwidth. Note, it should be min frequency where amplitude drops below -3 dB (70.8 %). And you're needs to use sine waveform signal for testing. Because all other kind of waveform consists of harmonics and lead to incorrect measurement. If amplitude drops below -3 dB and then rise above and then drops again, you're needs to use the first frequency where amplitude drops below -3 dB, not a second one.

And there is also digital bandwidth, which is a half of sample rate. Can someone check what is the sample rate of this device?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 11:37:36 am by radiolistener »
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #164 on: April 25, 2023, 11:56:18 am »
Hi radiolistener!
There is analog bandwidth, which you can measure with sine wave by sweeping from 0 Hz and up, the first frequency where aplitude drops down below -3 dB will be analog bandwidth. Note, it should be min frequency where amplitude drops below -3 dB (70.8 %). And you're needs to use sine waveform signal for testing. Because all other kind of waveform consists of harmonics and lead to incorrect measurement. If amplitude drops below -3 dB and then rise above and then drops again, you're needs to use the first frequency where amplitude drops below -3 dB, not a second one.
I haven't seen the amplitude dropping lower than 239mV when sweeping.
Would that be an extremely short range (like a flash) or a range of several 100KHz, where it drops?
I mean, would I see it anyway or does it need extremely small frequency steps?

And there is also digital bandwidth, which is a half of sample rate. Can someone check what is the sample rate of this device?
The manufacturer's specs. are attached.

Thank you!
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #165 on: April 25, 2023, 12:02:21 pm »
I haven't seen the amplitude dropping lower than 239mV when sweeping.
Would that be an extremely short range (like a flash) or a range of several 100KHz, where it drops?
I mean, would I see it anyway or does it need extremely small frequency steps?

usually amplitude is changed slowly over frequency sweep. You can check amplitude around some frequency, if it doesn't have fast change, then usually you can assume it will have slow change across entire bandwidth. But if there is some parasitic resonant frequency, it can have rapid amplitude change around it.

The manufacturer's specs. are attached.

Unfortunately you can't believe to Chinese device specifications. If it really has 500 MS/s this is very good for such devices, but I suspect it is smaller.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 12:06:36 pm by radiolistener »
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #166 on: April 25, 2023, 12:19:40 pm »
usually amplitude is changed slowly over frequency sweep. You can check amplitude around some frequency, if it doesn't have fast change, then usually you can assume it will have slow change across entire bandwidth. But if there is some parasitic resonant frequency, it can have rapid amplitude change around it.
No, I can't see that. There are some very short "flashes" sometimes. It looks like a switching issue. Maybe even coming from the TinySA.
I've seen the same on Youtube with real oscilloscopes before.
At higher frequencies the signal is dancing a bit and consists of several lines. I don't know what this is called.
But I can't see a real amplitude drop.
I will have another look this evening.

Thanks.
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #167 on: April 25, 2023, 12:29:33 pm »
Unfortunately you can't believe to Chinese device specifications. If it really has 500 MS/s this is very good for such devices, but I suspect it is smaller.
I have already shown how I read this. I don't know if it's true, but this way it looks halfway coherent.

Sampling Rate
2 channel/standard mode: 200Ms/s
2 channel/OC mode:250Ms/s
1 channel/standard mode: 400Ms/s
1 channel/OC mode: 500Ms/s

Bandwidth
2 channel/standard mode: ~48MHz
2 channel/OC mode: ~60MHz
1 channel/standard mode: ~96MHz
1 channel/OC mode: ~120MHz

The disadvantage of the overclocking (OC) mode is the fixed time base of 5ns.
You can't change the time base in this mode.
That's the reason why you don't leave it always on and maybe it uses more battery, I don't know.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 01:02:11 pm by Aldo22 »
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #168 on: April 25, 2023, 02:38:01 pm »
If amplitude drops below -3 dB and then rise above and then drops again, you're needs to use the first frequency where amplitude drops below -3 dB, not a second one.
I took another look at it.
There is no -3db amplitude drop before the end.
The signal is not very well defined in higher frequencies.
It consists of several "tracks" and the "truth" is probably somewhere in between.
Maybe Nyquist is knocking on the door, but I don't see any significant amplitude drop.
The attachment shows 70MHz in standard mode (up to 96MHz).

Thank you.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 02:41:09 pm by Aldo22 »
 

Offline radiolistener

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #169 on: April 25, 2023, 06:30:04 pm »
this amplitude instability is a beat between two frequencies - frequency of your signal and ADC sample rate frequency.
 
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Online Aldo22

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #170 on: April 26, 2023, 09:08:21 am »
Hi radiolistener

this amplitude instability is a beat between two frequencies - frequency of your signal and ADC sample rate frequency.

Thanks for the answer.
Does this phenomenon with the discrete multiple lines have a name?
I can't imagine that this is a specialty of the DSO2512G.
Here you can see something similar on a "real" oscilloscope, although it may have other causes.

How would you classify the phenomenon?
Does it affect the bandwidth assessment?
I mean we are still discussing the "real" bandwidth of the device.



I also took a closer look at the toy-FFT.
It is a gadget as an addition to a toy ;-)
The screen resolution and the space on the screen are actually not sufficient for something like that.
Then it is red on black, which does not give a good contrast.
You have to move the yellow signal out of the area to see anything.

But then, if you look really closely, it might be quite interesting and somewhat better than nothing.

I looked at the bad signal (you remember, square wave of the Si5351A with coax and load resistor).
A difference to the slightly better square with the probes (first attachment) can be seen.
If I interpret it correctly, there are many even harmonics in the bad signal, which are not visible in the "nicer" square.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 09:11:03 am by Aldo22 »
 

Online tatel

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #171 on: April 26, 2023, 09:11:12 am »
If amplitude drops below -3 dB and then rise above and then drops again, you're needs to use the first frequency where amplitude drops below -3 dB, not a second one.
I took another look at it.
There is no -3db amplitude drop before the end.
The signal is not very well defined in higher frequencies.
It consists of several "tracks" and the "truth" is probably somewhere in between.
Maybe Nyquist is knocking on the door, but I don't see any significant amplitude drop.
The attachment shows 70MHz in standard mode (up to 96MHz).

Thank you.

@aldo22

The screenshots are meaningless unless we know amplitude and type of the signal feeded into the scope... please don't assume we know it nor that we can assume you didn't change anything since last time you gave that data.

Generally speaking, if you send any screenshots please let us also know what the signal was. This will make the communication much better.
 

Online Aldo22

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #172 on: April 26, 2023, 09:20:19 am »
Hi Tatel!
The screenshots are meaningless unless we know amplitude and type of the signal feeded into the scope... please don't assume we know it nor that we can assume you didn't change anything since last time you gave that data.
Generally speaking, if you send any screenshots please let us also know what the signal was. This will make the communication much better.
That screenshot (photo) was just meant to show the multiple lines phenomenon.
But it is the same as above: Coax, dummy load, TinySA sine wave at -7.0dBm.
 

Online tatel

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #173 on: April 26, 2023, 02:49:08 pm »
Hi Tatel!
That screenshot (photo) was just meant to show the multiple lines phenomenon.
But it is the same as above: Coax, dummy load, TinySA sine wave at -7.0dBm.

Well, I want to summarize what we know so far:

1) This is a €100 device claiming it can do equally well or even better than a €500 device.  My GW Instek couldn't do 120 MHz even after unlocked. So they have to be cheating on something, else Rigol, GW Instek and Siglent would be out of business right now. Nobody would be buying their devices if this Zeeweii thing can do about the same at a 20% the price.

2) What we want to know is what this device can actually do. I for one don't expect it to make that fanciful advertised capabilities good, but I want to know up to where it's really good. Only then anyone will be able to decide if it could really serve him well or not.

3) 4thDoctorWhoFan reported he measured 35 MHz bandwidth with just one channel activated IIRC. That means about 17,5 MHz with both channels, isn't that right? With overcloking, it goes to 40 MHz, again only one channel activated, so I guess it could do 20 MHz with both channels activated. This is with a 1Vpp signal, it isn't?

So it would be something like two DSO154 put side by side and overclocked to obtain a 20 MHz dual channel device. I wouldn't expect much more from a device in this price range. That would be good enough, I think, altought I would perhaps recommend the €125 Owon HDS242 instead (but no really sure about that: HDS242 seems to have caveats of his own).

Conclussion: if one wants a better oscilloscope than that, has to go higher in the price range. That's why Rigol, GW Instek and Siglent are still doing well, not closing their businesses. To expect more from devices in this price range (brand doesn't matter) would be just delusional.

4) If you remember, I said this would be the first time I heard about an oscilloscope whose bandwidth depends on input signal amplitude. I don't know how this can be, but I know if it can't do something at 1 Vpp, that's it.

Let's put marketing tricks aside. Capabilities of DSO2512 have to be compared with other devices capabilities on an apples-to-apples basis. I don't know how that multiple lines phenomenom is called, but I would call it "Zeeweii's cheating". To me it means it can't do even a sinewave at 70 MHz. So, it can't do 70 MHz, period. Matter is, can it do a 5 Vpp sinewave at 20 MH? At least DSO154 can do a 5 Vpp sinewave up to 18 MHz and a square one up to perhaps 2 MHz.

I beg your pardon for being so blunt. But we are chasing our own tails here. -7 dBm signals are useless unless same results can be achieved at > 1 Vpp. So enough of that.

5) Perhaps this thing can do not just 120 MHz, but 120 GHz when signal amplitude is lower than 1 Vpp, but even so, I don't have much use for that, so I don't care. I could recommend it to a newcomer by saying "you can expect this thing to be "good" up to 20 MHz with both channels activated, with the following three caveats: a) you'll need to put it in overclocking mode, b) in that mode, you'll have just one timebase (5 ns/div), c) you could do that exclusively with a sinewave.

Even that wouldn't sound so good as a recommendation for a device advertised to be able to do 120 MHz, don't think you so? So I'm not even to consider how could I recommend this device based in what it could perhaps do with signal amplitudes exclusively under 1 Vpp. That would be simply ludicrous.

6) So, to be able to asess what DSO2512 can actually do, what we need is a video showing how a known good 5 Vpp sinewave looks at different frecuencies. Coax+50 ohm. 1x attenuation. You can go up to 120 MHz or even further if you  want. But I would bet 60 MHz will be enough to make things clear. Then please do the same with a 5 Vpp square wave. Then we all will we able to asess how good it really is and what it could be used for. Based neither in marketing advertisements nor prejudices, but on real data.

 

Offline Evi

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Re: New 2ch pocket DSO+SG - SigPeak DSO2512G
« Reply #174 on: April 26, 2023, 03:04:56 pm »

No one needs to see a sine wave.
The criterion for reliability is the square wave.
 
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