need a decision support for an oscilloscope (DSO)

[Frank_MV]

In terms of bandwidth 100MHz would be enough for me, MSO is a "nice to have".
An internal arbitary generator with sweep function would be an advantage.
Reliability (repairs) and measuring accuracy would be important to me.

What about a USB-Scope like PicoScope 5443D (MSO) ?
https://www.reichelt.de/de/en/usb-oscilloscope-100-mhz-4-channels-mso-ps-5443d-mso-p251228.html?&nbc=1

With best regards

Andreas

Thanks for your suggestion, Andreas, but I would like to have a standalone device with buttons and controls.
For the Pico scope I would also need a notebook, because my desktop PC is located in a other corner ;-)

br,
Frank

[Frank_MV]

tautech: "Have you looked at Siglent's newish SDS2000X Plus series ? Specifically SDS2104X Plus ?"
>>Yes, I have seen this.  The ADC has no real 10 bit resolution

Not real native 10 bit correct and the 10 bit mode is limited to 100 MHz BW which fits your needs.
3 bits of ERES can be further applied to the 10 bit mode.

FYI, I've checked the -3dB BW of SDS2104X Plus and it's some 185 MHz which is excellent for a 100 MHz scope.

and the resolution of the display is 1024 x 600,
the RTB has 1024 x 800.
But I don't know now if you can really see the lower resolution from the display.

The resolution is quite adequate for the SDS2000X Plus 10" display.

I have not yet found a video review where I can see how well the touch screen works.

Touch IME which is otherwise only with SDS5000X models is great although I have read some users have small difficulty in setting a zone which I have only tried a couple of times and indeed it is a little tricky setting a small zone but very easy with a mouse.
I tend to use Touch, a mouse and the physical controls for advanced use and prefer to have a mouse connected for general use as it's easier to use with the virtual keyboards for naming traces or files and a mouse scrollwheel is better in the longer menus.
YMMV

Edit
Oh and BTW a promo is running on the Plus series:
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e1464-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/

"FYI, I've checked the -3dB BW of SDS2104X Plus and it's some 185 MHz which is excellent for a 100 MHz scope."
>> ok, thanks the info.

Yes, I know the promo ;-)


The knobs of the SDS2000X Plus make a somewhat cheap impression on the pictures - or is that just deceptive ?

[tautech]

The knobs of the SDS2000X Plus make a somewhat cheap impression on the pictures - or is that just deceptive ?

Some seem to worry about them however exactly the same rubberized knob has been used on several models before Plus. I like the feel of them and never see the silver ring when using the scope.

Deceptive as you say is correct.....you should be looking at the display and not the controls !   

[Frank_MV]

The knobs of the SDS2000X Plus make a somewhat cheap impression on the pictures - or is that just deceptive ?

Some seem to worry about them however exactly the same rubberized knob has been used on several models before Plus. I like the feel of them and never see the silver ring when using the scope.

Deceptive as you say is correct.....you should be looking at the display and not the controls !   

Yes tautech - you are absolutely right   
If this type of button was already used on previous devices, it will probably last a long time 

I would also choose the 100MHz variant and hope that some day a hack will be released for a higher bandwidth

[tautech]

The knobs of the SDS2000X Plus make a somewhat cheap impression on the pictures - or is that just deceptive ?

Some seem to worry about them however exactly the same rubberized knob has been used on several models before Plus. I like the feel of them and never see the silver ring when using the scope.

Deceptive as you say is correct.....you should be looking at the display and not the controls !   

Yes tautech - you are absolutely right   
If this type of button was already used on previous devices, it will probably last a long time 

I would also choose the 100MHz variant and hope that some day a hack will be released for a higher bandwidth

Already done.......search some and you will find it. 

[nctnico]

The knobs of the SDS2000X Plus make a somewhat cheap impression on the pictures - or is that just deceptive ?

That would be least of my worries. Be aware that Siglent (and Rigol scopes) typically only decode what is on-screen.  If you want more packets on screen then you have to resort to zoom mode and thus give up screen real-estate in a situation where the screen is already cramped.  On top of that Siglent scopes only record enough data to fit the (zoom) screen (unless they have fixed that in the meantime) regardless of the memory depth setting. The latter can be annoying because you have to go back & forth between settings if you need to repeat the same measurement several times.

The R&S scopes OTOH don't have these limitations; it will always have decoded data for the entire memory depth you selected. If working with protocol decoding is important I'd go for the R&S scope.

[Fungus]

The R&S scopes OTOH don't have these limitations; it will always have decoded data for the entire memory depth you selected. If working with protocol decoding is important I'd go for the R&S scope.

Yep. If a feature is important then go with that feature.

[tautech]

The knobs of the SDS2000X Plus make a somewhat cheap impression on the pictures - or is that just deceptive ?

That would be least of my worries. Be aware that Siglent (and Rigol scopes) typically only decode what is on-screen.  If you want more packets on screen then you have to resort to zoom mode and thus give up screen real-estate in a situation where the screen is already cramped.  On top of that Siglent scopes only record enough data to fit the (zoom) screen (unless they have fixed that in the meantime) regardless of the memory depth setting. The latter can be annoying because you have to go back & forth between settings if you need to repeat the same measurement several times.

The R&S scopes OTOH don't have these limitations; it will always have decoded data for the entire memory depth you selected. If working with protocol decoding is important I'd go for the R&S scope.

And you don't see 1/10 of the memory in a R&S a limitation ?

When with the SDS2000X Plus you can set a timebase with memory depth to 200 Mpts, capture and examine the complete record in detail.
It still amazes me that experienced engineers cannot grasp the real power of a DSO....zooming in !

[nctnico]

The knobs of the SDS2000X Plus make a somewhat cheap impression on the pictures - or is that just deceptive ?

That would be least of my worries. Be aware that Siglent (and Rigol scopes) typically only decode what is on-screen.  If you want more packets on screen then you have to resort to zoom mode and thus give up screen real-estate in a situation where the screen is already cramped.  On top of that Siglent scopes only record enough data to fit the (zoom) screen (unless they have fixed that in the meantime) regardless of the memory depth setting. The latter can be annoying because you have to go back & forth between settings if you need to repeat the same measurement several times.

The R&S scopes OTOH don't have these limitations; it will always have decoded data for the entire memory depth you selected. If working with protocol decoding is important I'd go for the R&S scope.

And you don't see 1/10 of the memory in a R&S a limitation ?

When with the SDS2000X Plus you can set a timebase with memory depth to 200 Mpts, capture and examine the complete record in detail.

But likely the limit for the number of decoded frames is far exceeded with such a long record. Something else to look for when using protocol decoding is the oversampling factor. This can depend on the actual memory depth used to speed up processing. So in the end the question is: how useful is the long memory record in reality where it comes to protocol decoding? Better do some testing to back up the claim 200Mpts is better.  It may not be the case at all. The R&S RTM3004 I tested didn't had any trouble recording 32000 messages for example. Again, the way decoded data is displayed on the R&S scopes is excellend. If you make the decoded data trace higher then the text will be rotated by 90 degrees so you can cram a boat load of decoded data on the screen. But I get a salesman just likes to throw big numbers around.

[Electro Fan]

1 vote for Dave making an updated video on decoding - with some of the scopes and tests suggested by our most ardent decoding fans. 

[Electro Fan]

1 vote for Dave making an updated video on decoding - with some of the scopes and tests suggested by our most ardent decoding fans.

- could throw in a USB LA or 3 to show the tradeoffs

[2N3055]

If decoding with a scope is important, nothing can beat Picoscopes...
R&S only has search on CAN.  You can capture 32000 packets of I2C and than you have to search manually for one packet you need...

[Electro Fan]

If decoding with a scope is important, nothing can beat Picoscopes...
R&S only has search on CAN.  You can capture 32000 packets of I2C and than you have to search manually for one packet you need...

roger that

there’s the capture but then there’s the search and navigate - seems like someone should make a video to show the leading alternatives

[KaneTW]

Yeah, if you need to decode a lot, Picoscope is the way to go. You're inherently limited by preprogrammed decoders in non-PC scopes. Streaming from a standalone scope via Gbit LAN or such is possible, but you get like 80MSPS@10 bit max out of that if everything aligns.

[2N3055]

If decoding with a scope is important, nothing can beat Picoscopes...
R&S only has search on CAN.  You can capture 32000 packets of I2C and than you have to search manually for one packet you need...

roger that

there’s the capture but then there’s the search and navigate - seems like someone should make a video to show the leading alternatives

It's simple, it's either Picoscope on PC, or if you want to do it on scope  it LeCroy and Keysight... and R&S on their higher end scopes.. 2000/3000/4000 series are not included...
For instance, Keysight 3000T series has small memory, but hardware decode works from before A/D decimation, so you can decode even when signal is visibly in a very bad shape. Combine that with segments and search that works over segments and any protocol you can decode a lot. In fact, you can decode so much, that if you want more, you need to go to PC based solution just because it's to much data for scope screen and ergonomics. While R&S 2000/3000/4000 has superior screen (size and resolution, not quality), very good decoder concept, much, much more memory, R&S decided not to make 2000/3000/4000 series as powerful as it could be... They can't allow them to compete with their own higher end offers... I was very disappointed.  In the end you are more versatile with Keysight 3000T despite  hardware limits.. Old story of good hardware used to the max capabilities and potential, compared to excellent hardware only half utilized...

[rsjsouza]

Just a remark: only the entry level Rigol and Siglent oscilloscopes decode what is on screen. My DS4014 happily decodes whatever you throw at its memory. Searching, however is usually lacking and available in more advanced oscilloscopes.

Did you look at LeCroy? A few years back I was looking at some used models that were quite advanced and right at your price range.

[Frank_MV]

If decoding with a scope is important, nothing can beat Picoscopes...
R&S only has search on CAN.  You can capture 32000 packets of I2C and than you have to search manually for one packet you need...

roger that

there’s the capture but then there’s the search and navigate - seems like someone should make a video to show the leading alternatives

It's simple, it's either Picoscope on PC, or if you want to do it on scope  it LeCroy and Keysight... and R&S on their higher end scopes.. 2000/3000/4000 series are not included...
For instance, Keysight 3000T series has small memory, but hardware decode works from before A/D decimation, so you can decode even when signal is visibly in a very bad shape. Combine that with segments and search that works over segments and any protocol you can decode a lot. In fact, you can decode so much, that if you want more, you need to go to PC based solution just because it's to much data for scope screen and ergonomics. While R&S 2000/3000/4000 has superior screen (size and resolution, not quality), very good decoder concept, much, much more memory, R&S decided not to make 2000/3000/4000 series as powerful as it could be... They can't allow them to compete with their own higher end offers... I was very disappointed.  In the end you are more versatile with Keysight 3000T despite  hardware limits.. Old story of good hardware used to the max capabilities and potential, compared to excellent hardware only half utilized...

It's always the same problem that competition must be prevented within the company.
What about the SDS 2000X  Plus, is there a search function for serial bus decoding?

[Frank_MV]

Just a remark: only the entry level Rigol and Siglent oscilloscopes decode what is on screen. My DS4014 happily decodes whatever you throw at its memory. Searching, however is usually lacking and available in more advanced oscilloscopes.

Did you look at LeCroy? A few years back I was looking at some used models that were quite advanced and right at your price range.

At leCroy I only had a quick look, I'll have another closer look 

[Frank_MV]

The knobs of the SDS2000X Plus make a somewhat cheap impression on the pictures - or is that just deceptive ?

Some seem to worry about them however exactly the same rubberized knob has been used on several models before Plus. I like the feel of them and never see the silver ring when using the scope.

Deceptive as you say is correct.....you should be looking at the display and not the controls !   

Yes tautech - you are absolutely right   
If this type of button was already used on previous devices, it will probably last a long time 

I would also choose the 100MHz variant and hope that some day a hack will be released for a higher bandwidth

Already done.......search some and you will find it. 

Great 

[tautech]

The knobs of the SDS2000X Plus make a somewhat cheap impression on the pictures - or is that just deceptive ?

That would be least of my worries. Be aware that Siglent (and Rigol scopes) typically only decode what is on-screen.  If you want more packets on screen then you have to resort to zoom mode and thus give up screen real-estate in a situation where the screen is already cramped.  On top of that Siglent scopes only record enough data to fit the (zoom) screen (unless they have fixed that in the meantime) regardless of the memory depth setting. The latter can be annoying because you have to go back & forth between settings if you need to repeat the same measurement several times.

The R&S scopes OTOH don't have these limitations; it will always have decoded data for the entire memory depth you selected. If working with protocol decoding is important I'd go for the R&S scope.

And you don't see 1/10 of the memory in a R&S a limitation ?

When with the SDS2000X Plus you can set a timebase with memory depth to 200 Mpts, capture and examine the complete record in detail.

But likely the limit for the number of decoded frames is far exceeded with such a long record. Something else to look for when using protocol decoding is the oversampling factor. This can depend on the actual memory depth used to speed up processing. So in the end the question is: how useful is the long memory record in reality where it comes to protocol decoding? Better do some testing to back up the claim 200Mpts is better.  It may not be the case at all.

Decoding is not the only use of deep memory and yes your question about packets is clearly listed in the SDS2000X Plus datasheet:
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/document/SDS2000X%20Plus_Datasheet_DS0102XP_E01A.pdf
I²C Decoded frames (Max.) 2,000
SPI Decoded frames (Max.) 15,000
UART Decoded frames (Max.) 15,000
CAN Decoded frames (Max.) 2,000
LIN Decoded frames (Max.) 3,000
CAN FD Decoded frames (Max.) 1,000
FlexRay Decoded frames (Max.) 1,000
MIL-STD-1553B Decoded frames (Max.) 10,000

The R&S RTM3004 I tested didn't had any trouble recording 32000 messages for example.

OK so you're not comparing apples with apples. 
RTM3004 is a 5 GSa/s DSO with 80 Mpts max memory and is in another totally different price class to SDS2000X Plus DSO's.
OTOH the OP was looking at RTB2000 which only has 10 Mpts mem depth so could well be more limited in the # of packets it can display.

[robert.rozee]

The R&S RTM3004 I tested didn't had any trouble recording 32000 messages for example.

while far from an expert, i've used high-end DSOs, and (unfortunately) used low-end DSOs. i would say that for 95% of average users the siglent SDS scopes (i own an SDS1104X-e upgraded to 200MHz myself) provide usability and performance closer to the high-end. the technology has reached a point of maturity where the performance is, to be honest, quite amazing.

however, i would always recommend a cheap (clone) saleae logic analyser - these can be had for around the us$10 mark on ebay - hooked up to a laptop via USB. these devices provide far superior serial bus decoding than any but the most expensive MSO. the main place where an actual MSO (or DSO with serial decoding) shines is when you need to decode serial data and see the data aligned beside an analog trace. this is not something most folks need to do often, if ever!

so, my suggestion is to consider serial bus decoding a nice extra feature, which may be useful on occasion, but not something to be a deal breaker when there are other parameters that have a far greater impact in your day-to-day use of the instrument. for just a few dollars you can get a dedicated device to do serial bus decoding that does the job far better than most DSOs and MSOs.


just my opinion, mind you.

cheers,
rob   :-)

[Golds]

TEXIO DCS-9710

[Frank_MV]

The SDS2000X Plus comes with the Logic Analizer for free because of the promo, so you can think about getting one for USB later.
But at the moment the one in the "Scope" would suffice for me.

I read that the RTB2000 is supposed to have only one I2C/SPI decoder and Rigol and Siglent probably have 2. Is there any truth in that ?
Rohde & Schwarz customer service said that one decoder would be enough because you could only trigger on one decoder not on 2 or more.

[tautech]

The SDS2000X Plus comes with the Logic Analizer for free because of the promo, .........

No, sorry it doesn't. 
MSO is excluded from the promo package.
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e1464-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/

[Frank_MV]

The SDS2000X Plus comes with the Logic Analizer for free because of the promo, .........

No, sorry it doesn't. 
MSO is excluded from the promo package.
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e1464-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/

Right, you're right. I looked wrong