nanoVNA vs SVA1015X VNA (Need entry level VNA)

[switchabl]

The first thing I noticed was the slow sweep speed hopefully Siglent improves on this.

My 12 year old E5062A is a lot faster.

According to the datasheet it shouldn't be. Are you comparing it at the same settings? I think Shahriar had it at something like 500 Hz IFBW, 500 points. That is going to slow it down a lot. The fact that he was using the remote interface may not help either.

EDIT: This is assuming we are talking about the SNA5000A video here and not about the SVA.

[rplabs]

Hello all,

I wanted to share my thoughts here since I am in search for a new VNA also.

I own a NanoVNA V2plus4 for a long time and it was OK for my amateur radio stuff I do for up to 4GHz but now I need something in the range of 8-12GHz. Solver32 program also helps a lot to increase the usability of the small NanoVNA.

As for used VNAs... I am looking on eBay for more than 2 months and prices are crazy for any VNA. Even if it is 20 years old and shows errors or is not working prices in EU are at least 3K EUR.

Same applies for old SNAs on eBay, 2K EUR and they are not tested and are missing the detector heads. Buying the detector heads will bring the price same as a VNA.

On the good side I saw on LibreVNA groups.io list they work to combine multiple VNAs to create something like a cluster. Not clear if this can be used to increase the max frequency of 6GHz or it just does different measurements where one unit cannot do it.

[tomud]

I need something in the range of 8-12GHz.

upss it will be painful financially... 

Apparently, SNA5000 variants will appear at frequencies higher than 8.5GHz - but here the price will probably not be low. The same applies to the prices of calibrators and cables.

Unfortunately, these are already large amounts of money to spend  Sometimes I build radars on 24GHz myself and a VNA would be useful, but I do not even think about it because it is outside my private budget.

However, as for the prices and condition of equipment from ebay etc you are right. (it often looks like equipment found in a dumpster)

You can try to buy the HP 8510C + 8516A + 83621A, but it is not the latest equipment and you need a lot of space in the workshop...

[joeqsmith]

Hello all,

I wanted to share my thoughts here since I am in search for a new VNA also.

I own a NanoVNA V2plus4 for a long time and it was OK for my amateur radio stuff I do for up to 4GHz but now I need something in the range of 8-12GHz. Solver32 program also helps a lot to increase the usability of the small NanoVNA.

As for used VNAs... I am looking on eBay for more than 2 months and prices are crazy for any VNA. Even if it is 20 years old and shows errors or is not working prices in EU are at least 3K EUR.

Same applies for old SNAs on eBay, 2K EUR and they are not tested and are missing the detector heads. Buying the detector heads will bring the price same as a VNA.

On the good side I saw on LibreVNA groups.io list they work to combine multiple VNAs to create something like a cluster. Not clear if this can be used to increase the max frequency of 6GHz or it just does different measurements where one unit cannot do it.

They changed the LiteVNA's firmware to use harmonics and cap it at 9.3, at least with the version I currently have installed.    I've thought about putting together an up/down converter for it with some software support.    I have some support today and demo'ed the NanoVNA I think above 2GHz.  Maybe something to consider.   

[jhov]

I'm not sure how it compares to your other options, but a Pluto Plus SDR with albfers SATSAGEN software might be worth looking into. His latest version added VNA capability using an RF bridge.

https://www.albfer.com/en/2022/05/29/satsagen-v-0-7-1-4/#content

[switchabl]

I'm not sure how it compares to your other options, but a Pluto Plus SDR with albfers SATSAGEN software might be worth looking into. His latest version added VNA capability using an RF bridge.

https://www.albfer.com/en/2022/05/29/satsagen-v-0-7-1-4/#content

I have the older revision of the Pluto, so I can't try this out. But the isolation between TX and RX is pretty bad. I expect the dynamic range to be very limited. You may be able to improve this somewhat by reducing the source power and adding some external gain. But in the end, it wasn't exactly built as a VNA.

[tomud]

Pluto was designed as a low-cost SDR for educational purposes. You can attach the coupler, but as it was said, I would not expect miracles.
Especially that for the price of a Pluto and a coupler with reasonable parameters, you can probably buy any budget VNA - which will be more convenient.

@joeqsmith

Yes, you can think of harmonics (even Keysight FieldFox works that way). However, at frequencies such as 8GHz and above, everything becomes more complicated and there are no simple solutions. It can be seen even from all budget VNAs what parameters they reach at the end of the bandwidth in which I work (whether it will be libreVNA or others).

Even if a project of such a VNA is created and has acceptable parameters, it will not be cheap. There is nothing to cheat here, targeting frequencies of the order of 10GHz will not be cheap...

At the moment, only the older VNAs remain - the question is to find one that is reasonably priced and undamaged (which won't be easy). Anyway, when buying old measuring equipment, you have to reckon with the fact that sooner or later you will have to repair something, replace the capacitors or something else. If I had more room in the workshop I would try to buy the HP 8510C, this is probably the only reasonable option in terms of cost and repairability.

[joeqsmith]

For up/down conversion, I wasn't thinking harmonics but yes, there's a higher cost it seems the faster you go.   This seems to hold true with with my bikes as well.  The quicker they are, the more they cost.      

I was very surprised when they released the LiteVNA that supported 6GHz and only cost $130 USD.   The fact it works at all is amazing.   I'm looking forward to seeing where they go next. 

[rplabs]

upss it will be painful financially... 

Yes, that's why I search eBay and other local sites for more than 2 months without any hope now.
Looks like it is cheaper to buy it from US and pay customs and shipping to EU.

You can try to buy the HP 8510C + 8516A + 83621A, but it is not the latest equipment and you need a lot of space in the workshop...

I saw them and was thinking about it but only broken ones are cheap. The ones that power on and show something on display are almost the same as a not tested but powering on Rohde & Schwarz ZVM. Also the shipping costs will be probably high for that if it is not in a normal driving distance to the seller for pick up.

I'm not in a hurry. It is just for my amateur radio hobby so I can wait for a good deal.

[rplabs]

They changed the LiteVNA's firmware to use harmonics and cap it at 9.3, at least with the version I currently have installed.    I've thought about putting together an up/down converter for it with some software support.    I have some support today and demo'ed the NanoVNA I think above 2GHz.  Maybe something to consider.

Interesting but I didn't see this mentioned anywhere. I saw only that LiteVNA upper frequency is 6.3GHz and reports that the noise floor is higher than NanoVNA V2plus4.

Do you have a link with more details about 9.3GHz firmware running on LiteVNA?

9GHz would be OK for me now to test some filters, isolators and mixers for the amateur DSN project that I want to build now.

[rplabs]

At the moment, only the older VNAs remain - the question is to find one that is reasonably priced and undamaged (which won't be easy). Anyway, when buying old measuring equipment, you have to reckon with the fact that sooner or later you will have to repair something, replace the capacitors or something else. If I had more room in the workshop I would try to buy the HP 8510C, this is probably the only reasonable option in terms of cost and repairability.

Hmm... I can only see in EU only this one from a seller in Italy and it costs 24K Euro.

https://www.ebay.at/itm/304194390464

For the same price you get the R&S ZVK up to 40GHz.

https://www.ebay.at/itm/324827992024

I am sure the ZVK will use less power also and also less space and it is a more modern unit.

[tomud]

You can try to buy the HP 8510C + 8516A + 83621A, but it is not the latest equipment and you need a lot of space in the workshop...

I saw them and was thinking about it but only broken ones are cheap. The ones that power on and show something on display are almost the same as a not tested but powering on Rohde & Schwarz ZVM. Also the shipping costs will be probably high for that if it is not in a normal driving distance to the seller for pick up.

I'm not in a hurry. It is just for my amateur radio hobby so I can wait for a good deal.

Unfortunately, I also have such a problem and to be honest I have been looking for a decent VNA for a home workshop for many years. Unfortunately, when something interesting appears on the market, it is quickly bought by people who professionally trade equipment, and then sell it at very high prices

Unfortunately, to buy something at a good price, you need a lot of free time to follow the auction (unfortunately I do not have this time), when something appears at a good price, unfortunately it disappears immediately.

24k euro for 8510C IMHO is a crazy price. If I had a larger workshop, I would prefer to buy a few cheap damaged ones and assemble them into one functional measuring instrument. Even with a lot of bad luck, it would be cheaper anyway.

There is even an attempt to use the HP 8515A module on the Polish forum and do the rest yourself. But I don't know how this attempt ended (Unfortunately, the topic is in Polish: http://mikrofale.iq24.pl/default.asp?grupa=160341&temat=423430 )

Maybe it would be a good idea to look for hams who have such measuring equipment at home and talk to them about the chances of repairing such a device.

I am slowly starting to think about the Siglent SNA5000. I'm still waiting for independent reviews and most likely, if the reviews are good, I will buy up to 8.5GHz. Yes, I would like something more, but you have to think realistically ... and at the moment the most I miss the possibility of measuring in the 5.7GHz band.

[nctnico]

The question is: do you really need a network analyser? IOW: do you need phase information for your measurements? A low cost option would be to use a spectrum analyser + sweep generator. This will be slow but at least can give you some graphs (amplitude and VSWR -if you have a directional coupler-).

[rplabs]

The question is: do you really need a network analyser? IOW: do you need phase information for your measurements? A low cost option would be to use a spectrum analyser + sweep generator. This will be slow but at least can give you some graphs (amplitude and VSWR -if you have a directional coupler-).

Yes, you are right that for this task a spectrum analyzer + sweep generator will work but... I have the SA and I am looking for a sweep generator to cover also 8-12GHz and those are also not cheap.

I contacted a few sellers on ebay in EU and they were selling "good" units but in fact from pictures I could see errors. When I asked about errors they were saying just "no issue, it works. Buy it and test it by yourself and you will see it is OK." Right, so I need to pay a few K Euro and test it to see if it is really broken or not? Not to say that this is 20+ years old equipment which can fail anytime...

[joeqsmith]

They changed the LiteVNA's firmware to use harmonics and cap it at 9.3, at least with the version I currently have installed.    I've thought about putting together an up/down converter for it with some software support.    I have some support today and demo'ed the NanoVNA I think above 2GHz.  Maybe something to consider.

Interesting but I didn't see this mentioned anywhere. I saw only that LiteVNA upper frequency is 6.3GHz and reports that the noise floor is higher than NanoVNA V2plus4.

Do you have a link with more details about 9.3GHz firmware running on LiteVNA?

9GHz would be OK for me now to test some filters, isolators and mixers for the amateur DSN project that I want to build now.

https://groups.io/g/liteVNA/topic/first_tests_above_6_3ghz/87993520?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C1%2C20%2C0%3A%3Arecentpostdate%2Fsticky%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C20%2C87993520%2Cprevid%253D1643508180797191034%2Cnextid%253D1640273623127907015&next=1

***
The software I wrote doesn't limit the frequency the VNA uses.  If for example the user enters 1THz for the start frequency, the software assumes you are smart enough to know what you are doing and will gladly write the data to the VNA.   

I did attempt a few of my own experiments using harmonics but it's not something I am really setup for. 

[rplabs]

https://groups.io/g/liteVNA/topic/first_tests_above_6_3ghz/87993520?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C1%2C20%2C0%3A%3Arecentpostdate%2Fsticky%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C20%2C87993520%2Cprevid%253D1643508180797191034%2Cnextid%253D1640273623127907015&next=1

Interesting read but I noticed from the screenshots posted in the thread that performance is not quite good after 7.5~8GHz in my opinion but it is a start. I am not sure if this extended range can be improved. Seems like a hardware limitation.

The software I wrote doesn't limit the frequency the VNA uses.  If for example the user enters 1THz for the start frequency, the software assumes you are smart enough to know what you are doing and will gladly write the data to the VNA.   

I did attempt a few of my own experiments using harmonics but it's not something I am really setup for.

Your software is amazing. Many thanks for publishing it, I appreciate it!

[joeqsmith]

At least with the LiteVNA, there were/are problems with the USB power supply.   Same for the V2Plus4.   This can have a dramatic effect on the VNAs performance.  I suspect they capped the firmware I have at 9GHz as there was no useful information after this. 

Your software is amazing. Many thanks for publishing it, I appreciate it!

Glad to hear.   

[LogicalDave]

Sorry it,s a converted SSA Plus, a worthless device and a waste of money.
Once you have worked with real VNA you have forgotten ALL the solutions suggested here. (Nanovna, Libre, VNWA, LiteVNA, SVA, SSA etc etc).
My advice is save enough money and buy a real VNA.

I know this comment is more than a year old, but would you be willing to expand on your statement?

Each of these devices has a price point and is designed to meet certain needs.  What would be most helpful to people reading these threads is understanding the capabilities and limitations of each VNA *for specific tasks*.  For example, when sweeping/tuning an 868MHz antenna, characterizing a filter or a discrete component or feed line, tweaking a diplexer, etc., at what point does a user who does not have unlimited funds need to step up from a NanoVNA to a LibreVNA or SVA10xx to a Copper Mountain VNA to a  "real VNA"?

[tautech]

Typically, only when you need to fully characterize a device with S11, S21, S12 and S22 measurements.
SNA5000A models allow for this by providing bidirectional stimuli.