NanoVNA V3 (6GHz)

[Mechatrommer]

browsing nano vna 6ghz today... it's been a year since i mentioned it to OwO and he said it's under development... but today its already up in their official site https://nanorfe.com/nanovna-v3.html but not in production nor for sale yet... checking in tindie also zero.. but when i check aliexpress, man i guess its not long before entering madness stage... LibreVNA 6GHz now available at $399 (but poor noise floor > 3GHz compared to what is claimed in nanorfe site), the "other" NanoVNA 6GHz are also there just for $248, but unlike official NanoVNA V3 that claims 100kHz min limit, they are only down to 23MHz... so i suspect when the official version is up, there will be many more variants adding to the noise. if the $400 tag and 100dB noise up to 6GHz claim as in the official nanorfe site is true, then this is a worth time to wait for the official version of NanoVNA V3... to OwO, (given the reputation) please let us know when your V3 is up for sale asap  , fwiw.

[Mechatrommer]

according to OwO in https://groups.io/g/NanoVNAV3/topic/83921832#38

It depends how many people are interested. Once there is sufficient people on the waitlist the production can start, so the more people we get interested in this the faster it can be made available.

this sounds not too good. i've been waiting for eons. how long the waitlist will be filled up to acceptable amount? forever i guess? which should come first, the supply? or the demand? 6,10,20 GHz supply have been around for decades, and people/company will still buy it. why OwO you just tell your production man to start production, once its in Tindie or Ali i'm pretty sure people and young people in the future will buy it.

[thinkfat]

At a $500 price point you can expect the preorder queue to fill slowly. This is for a hobbyist already in the "serious money" category. The more money you need to spend on something, the more you're going to question your needs to actually have it. I bought a V2 with the large display and metal case. It fulfills all my measurement needs. I'm not looking for a 6GHz instrument. I'd appreciate a 120dB dynamic range, but I can't justify spending $500 on it.

[joeqsmith]

It's easy to suggest how to proceed when you're not the one taking the risk.   While I signed up, I think part of the problem was we never heard back what the specs would end up with.  I want that lower frequency, wide dynamic range and while they stated they were looking into it, we never heard back.   Many, rightfully so, will want to see it in action before they pull the trigger.   $500 would be cheap if they could pull it off.   

[Mechatrommer]

At a $500 price point you can expect the preorder queue to fill slowly. This is for a hobbyist already in the "serious money" category.

if they dont know how its worth, then they should not even buy the 3GHz version.. even the Ali $50 knockoff version.

It's easy to suggest how to proceed when you're not the one taking the risk.

if they are afraid, they can send me the design and let me order pcb and parts from lcsc/jlcpcb, assemble it with my hand for my personal usage 

[Mechatrommer]

if it takes too long, the people in the wait list may quit due to impression that the designers are struggling to meet the promised specs... we may wander off and get the current alternative and try to live with <50dB spec beyond 3GHz just as what we get used to on previous VNA cheaper options such as Deepace unit, here is what i'm talking about ($400 LibreVNA) ps: i have a "one heck of a serious" project waiting for the device. if OwO charge me $700 for their early birdie unit i will not hesitate to pay, even if its aesthetically looks nasty, as long as electrical functionally within the promised spec.

[joeqsmith]

My interest was personal use so I can afford to wait forever.  If they pull it off, I will buy one. 

I had been following the LibreVNA for a long time.  A few people asked me about porting my software to run on it.  I tried to as a few questions on their forum a few times but they censored everything.  Last I saw it seemed they were having a lot of problems and were getting ready to turn a new hardware revision.   At $400 a pop, for the privilege of help them develop it and having to deal with the censorship,  I lost interest and have no idea what's going on with it anymore.   The performance was too poor for what I was wanting it for anyway.   There was one from Russia but again, poor specs and it looked like there was no remote control.  It wasn't well documented.

You can download the software for the ones linked below and see if you like how they drive.  You may also be able to rent a system for a few months.  That may be a really good option if your in a hurry, need a working system and are short on funds.  Of course there is the used market as well.   Maybe with the current state of things, you could find a really good deal.   If you go this route, and your planning to layout a bit of cash, you may want to work a deal where the unit is sent directly to the manufacture for a checkout and any updates.  If there are problems that the seller covers them or the unit is returned. 

Good luck with your project. 

https://coppermountaintech.com/vna/s5065-2-port-6-5-ghz-analyzer/
https://www.picotech.com/vector-network-analyzer/picovna/picovna-series

[Mechatrommer]

Good luck with your project.

just a $5 project really, but i have a little plan and i feel crippled if i cant reach up to 6GHz, its been for months i'm waiting. i can continue with my NanoVNA V2 and spec my device up to 3GHz but meh, it will be much better if i can have 6GHz V3 at hand. those coppermountain and pico devices you mentioned are premium to pro grade (expensive), thats why people like me see a $500 6GHz VNA as an opportunity, not a burden. thanks anyway for your info and wish. censoring comments and opinions by LibreVNA is not a good sign either. cheers.

[thinkfat]

At a $500 price point you can expect the preorder queue to fill slowly. This is for a hobbyist already in the "serious money" category.

if they dont know how its worth, then they should not even buy the 3GHz version.. even the Ali $50 knockoff version.

It's easy to suggest how to proceed when you're not the one taking the risk.

if they are afraid, they can send me the design and let me order pcb and parts from lcsc/jlcpcb, assemble it with my hand for my personal usage 

Aren't you a bit childish expecting to be handed something for basically free, that someone spent months of work on, building up intellectual property with the hope to make a profit out of it eventually. Especially with the copycat mentality displayed among Chinese manufacturers, they're bound to fill a pre-order queue first before committing serious money to a larger production run.

Hitting the right price point, and the right target group, with a decent margin, is critical. USD500 retail is already a stretch, IMHO. If the device is built similar to the NanoRFE V2, even with the enhanced specs, that's going to be a tough sell.

if it takes too long, the people in the wait list may quit due to impression that the designers are struggling to meet the promised specs... we may wander off and get the current alternative and try to live with <50dB spec beyond 3GHz just as what we get used to on previous VNA cheaper options such as Deepace unit, here is what i'm talking about ($400 LibreVNA) ps: i have a "one heck of a serious" project waiting for the device. if OwO charge me $700 for their early birdie unit i will not hesitate to pay, even if its aesthetically looks nasty, as long as electrical functionally within the promised spec.

I doubt people will walk away and buy something else, because, what else would they buy? There is nothing with the same performance and the same price point. Alternatives like the PicoVNA 106 sell at over 5000GBP. The real question is whether the target group is large enough to have a business perspective for the product. I have some doubt about that. If you really need a 6GHz VNA, would you buy something off Tindie or Taobao for $500, from a vendor struggling to put the money out for the first production batch, or would you buy a brand-name instrument even if it costs 10 or 20 times as much.

So, the target group are people who don't actually "need" it yet are curious enough to put out half a grand to buy a novelty item for which they have no actual use. It better be a damn sexy thing.

[Bicurico]

As hobbyist I bought the 50 Euro NanoVNA (probably a clone of it).

That is play money for me that I can use to get these device for the sole purpose of learning how to use it and understanding what (in this case) a VNA measurement is.

At 500 Euro, I think that there will be much less hobbyist people like myself buying one for no particular or specific application other than basically trying it out and learning from it.

The thing is: for 1500 Euro you get a Siglent SSA3021X which you can hack into a SVA1032. While it only goes up to 3.2GHz, it is an entry level professional equipment. I would spend my hobby money on such a device (after saving up money for it), but I would not consider spending 1/3 of that money for a NanoVNA.

Also, people have to understand that measurements over 3GHz require very expensive accessories and cables to get any meaningful measurement.

Considering all this, I really doubt that the NanoVNA3 will be a success at 500 Euro, unless it can act as a proper spectrum analyzer, too.

Regards,
Vitor

[JohnG]

I have a couple alternate scenarios where a $500 VNA makes a lot of sense:

1. Every company I have worked for has a dividing line between $2k to $3k for equipment. Above the line is capital equipment and many justifications, discussions, approvals, et cetera are needed to purchase. Below the line, I can purchase at my own discretion, and if I don't abuse the privilege, I'm good to go.

2. I have had some situations where I needed to measure parasitics on power devices under various dc bias conditions, and I used self-designed bias networks because I couldn't find commercial ones that did what I needed. It's pretty nerve-wracking when your self-designed bias network is all that is standing between your company's very expensive VNA input and an 800V dc power supply, especially if the DUT is an experimental power device of unknown reliability. You could buy quite a few $500 VNAs for the price of the simplest high-end VNA repair. Heck, you could just build it in to your test jig.

John

[Bicurico]

I have a couple alternate scenarios where a $500 VNA makes a lot of sense:

1. Every company I have worked for has a dividing line between $2k to $3k for equipment. Above the line is capital equipment and many justifications, discussions, approvals, et cetera are needed to purchase. Below the line, I can purchase at my own discretion, and if I don't abuse the privilege, I'm good to go.

2. I have had some situations where I needed to measure parasitics on power devices under various dc bias conditions, and I used self-designed bias networks because I couldn't find commercial ones that did what I needed. It's pretty nerve-wracking when your self-designed bias network is all that is standing between your company's very expensive VNA input and an 800V dc power supply, especially if the DUT is an experimental power device of unknown reliability. You could buy quite a few $500 VNAs for the price of the simplest high-end VNA repair. Heck, you could just build it in to your test jig.

John

Not trolling but genuinely asking:
Would an ISo900x certified company accept such test equipment like the NanoVNA3?

[Mechatrommer]

I doubt people will walk away and buy something else, because, what else would they buy?

i've mentioned one alternative above, libreVNA. and me is at least a one person that is at risk of walking away. you cant guarantee all the people in the waitlist will eventually make the purchase when the product is released for sale. so judging from waitlist count is a bit irrational imho. if i buy librevna now, i might not be the early birdie anymore, i'll wait more and more reviews first to justify for another 6GHz VNA when V3 is released. or maybe wait for their 2nd or 3rd revision. and since there is no update as to what is going on in the RnD progress today, we'll start to doubt it... not wanting to take risk in production cost is a lame excuse for me, Kickstarter is there, bank of PRC is there far better than wallstreet or our bank or whatever i think. at least give us some update. if they wait for more people in waitlist, i think they will also lose some people during the time. about who need it who dont? i dont want to debate, HAM/RC community alone is there bigger than this forum, you dont find them here, you can only see them playing with their drones in youtubes and some unknown chaps also doing reviews on NanoVNA V2 there. ymmv.

Not trolling but genuinely asking:
Would an ISo900x certified company accept such test equipment like the NanoVNA3?

well its trolling i guess, even its not original intention. since V3 is not targetting on those companies that can afford $1M of equipments and annual 5 digits service and maintenance cost. if V3 is going to be polish today to meet the target and become 3-4 digit price, we the small hobby/company will be washed away from the poll and start collecting librevna, since its the only best option now.

[joeqsmith]

Not trolling but genuinely asking:
Would an ISo900x certified company accept such test equipment like the NanoVNA3?

At least in R&D, would we care?  It's not a process we need to control to maintain the quality of the products we produce.   Free HF meters for everyone!   

Using it for part of the production test, maybe.  Guessing there are worse fixtures than the Nano in use in some cases.  Interesting thought.  I wonder if anyone has done it. 

[joeqsmith]

Even if the design is 100% complete and has been fully tested, with distribution being what it is, they may not be able to obtain the parts to build it.  You may be waiting for several years before the supply chains return to normal.   

So for $500 can you find an old 8753 with a 6GHz option, have it shipped and get it working.... 

The point about the accessories and their cost is certainly something to consider.     

[JohnG]

Not trolling but genuinely asking:
Would an ISo900x certified company accept such test equipment like the NanoVNA3?

Short answer: yes
Longer answer: Definitely for R&D, because you cannot be limited to existing equipment if it does not meet your R&D needs, and if you are the researcher/developer, making a case for whatever you need should be part of your skill set.

You can even make a case for using something like it as part of a production process, though it may be a lot of extra work to justify, qualify, and document accordingly. The latter may cost more than purchasing high-end equipment when all is considered, but even then, you are still building test fixtures and setups and there is just as much room here for something to go wrong. You can get ISO900x certification and have well documented processes that you follow completely, and turn out crap. You need to have a documented process to deal with crap (I am not kidding).

John

[joeqsmith]

You can get ISO900x certification and have well documented processes that you follow completely, and turn out crap.

When I get in a discussion about quality, I pull out my 100 year old pocket watch made long before ISO, black belt blah blah blah.   Today we talk a lot about quality, have all sorts of training, document everything to the hilt but there was a time we didn't hear too much about it but I think we may have had a better understanding of it. 

[thinkfat]

You can get ISO900x certification and have well documented processes that you follow completely, and turn out crap.

When I get in a discussion about quality, I pull out my 100 year old pocket watch made long before ISO, black belt blah blah blah.   Today we talk a lot about quality, have all sorts of training, document everything to the hilt but there was a time we didn't hear too much about it but I think we may have had a better understanding of it.

That's because everybody is saying "quality" while they're actually just talking about procedures. That is not "quality", that is "accountability". It's about covering your arse. "I cannot be blamed because I followed procedures".

[thinkfat]

Not trolling but genuinely asking:
Would an ISo900x certified company accept such test equipment like the NanoVNA3?

At least in R&D, would we care?  It's not a process we need to control to maintain the quality of the products we produce.   Free HF meters for everyone!   

Using it for part of the production test, maybe.  Guessing there are worse fixtures than the Nano in use in some cases.  Interesting thought.  I wonder if anyone has done it.

What if it starts to impact your yield because the $500 instrument is falsely rejecting perfectly good products.
Or vice versa, letting defective products pass, causing a high level of support calls, returned boxes and angry reviews on Amazon.

[bestel]

I doubt people will walk away and buy something else, because, what else would they buy?

I've bought a LibreVNA this week.
It *seems* to cover all my needs... But there is not a lot more of review available... so I hope it will be OK

I'm not a big fan of hacking, but turning a "SSA3021X into a SVA1032X" is still x3 the "500$" price.
The 6GHz is "just" a nice to have as a work around, but help to have a dynamic range of +/- 85dB for frequency < 3GHz !
(https://github.com/jankae/LibreVNA/blob/master/Documentation/UserManual/specsheet.pdf)

If LibreVNA is a "broken" design, I will certainly buy a SSA3021X.

[joeqsmith]

What if it starts to impact your yield because the $500 instrument is falsely rejecting perfectly good products.
Or vice versa, letting defective products pass, causing a high level of support calls, returned boxes and angry reviews on Amazon.

I was thinking the $50 unit.  $500 for a production test jig used to make the next generation guidance system seems like a stretch.   

[tautech]

If LibreVNA is a "broken" design, I will certainly buy a SSA3021X.

It must be the Plus model. 

[joeqsmith]

I've bought a LibreVNA this week.
It *seems* to cover all my needs... But there is not a lot more of review available... so I hope it will be OK
...
If LibreVNA is a "broken" design, I will certainly buy a SSA3021X.

I doubt very much it would be "broken", at least to the extent they could not sell it.

The very poor communication, or censorship was a deal breaker.  For playing (and I do mean playing) with PDN designs, the 100kHz 60dB dynamic range below 1MHz is not even near good enough.   

The $50 unit does a pretty decent job for what it is.  It will be very interesting to see what OWO brings to the table next. 

 

[thinkfat]

What if it starts to impact your yield because the $500 instrument is falsely rejecting perfectly good products.
Or vice versa, letting defective products pass, causing a high level of support calls, returned boxes and angry reviews on Amazon.

I was thinking the $50 unit.  $500 for a production test jig used to make the next generation guidance system seems like a stretch.   

My sarcasm detector was apparently off that minute 

[bestel]

The very poor communication, or censorship was a deal breaker.

For me, as an outsider, the "very poor communication, or censorship" is compensated by the open-source and the good documentation.
The choice also of technology with Qt is really interesting (run everywhere with good performance) !

The "censorship" was on this URL ? https://groups.io/g/LibreVNA-support
It seems they changed recently.