My Ebay Hantek Buying Hell

[free_electron]

I'm sorry, but my sympathy is with the seller in this case. You are a nightmare customer to deal with.

<-THIS

You buy something on ebay. pay for it. Then change your mind ? sorry bub. should not have bought it.

Now you are trying all kinds of shenanigangs to return item and get money back.

no sympathy.

[TheAmmoniacal]

I have to pay 25% VAT + £13 handling fee for getting anything into the country, £16 for £250 is something to be happy about. Just do it.

[Gyro]

Laugh all you want son, but you won't worm your way out with any form of self-respect or dignity now. Just because the seller's thousands of miles away doesn't mean he deserves to get screwed by you.

[Fraser]

Oh what a mess !

I am a regular purchaser from China via eBay. I have also lived in China and Hong Kong. With  >3600 eBay feedback I know a thing or two about international purchasing. My thoughts on your situation.....

1. You ordered an expensive and fragile product from an overseas seller. He likely had to order it and pay a supplier before posting it to you.
2. The seller used DHL, normally the preferred shipping method as China Post can be brutal to fragile packages.
3. You changed your mind about the purchase. EBay is not like a regular retail shop and you are buying from China. Normal rules of retail and the right of return do not apply. Sadly you did not consider this before ordering the scope That was your mistake and not the sellers.
4. The seller told you it was too late to cancel, you think he lied. Stop for just a minute and think about this. You ordered an expensive product, the seller likely sourced it from a supplier who does not offer returns. You committed to buy and cancelling your order places the seller in a very difficult position. He has every right to say too late.
5. The seller shipped later than advertised...... Likely waiting for the wholesaler to deliver the product to him. Such is life.
6. Now the very important part....... You contracted to pay the seller for the scope. In truth £250 is not a huge sum to most of us in Europe or the UK. However, for many Chinese, £250 is a very big deal and not an amount they can afford to loose. This would also apply to any lost postage to get the scope back. The Chinese are good people and many are just trying to make a living as best they can. Have some compassion for the seller.

In this case I definitely feel for the seller and pity him. I believe in Karma and suggest you do the right thing by ensuring the seller gets paid in full for the scope. There is little reason to expect problems with the scope and you will have made a large enough saving to take the risk ? I bought my Rigol,from China and it has given great service for many years. At worst you would have to pay the UK Agent to have it repaired....... Remember you made a saving when you bought it though. Buying such kit from outside Europe is an informed risk.

Honestly, and I mean this in the kindest possible way, stop making a mountain out of a mole hill and settle your debts. You will get to an age when you look back and wonder why on Earth you made such a fuss over this. Make decisions, good or bad, and live with the results. Do not whinge or make others life miserable trying to dig yourself out of a hole.

Oh and just so you know, under chargeback, a card issuer will happily refund your account while they investigate the validity of your claim. That does not mean they agree with your views or that you are right. They will just as happily recharge your account when the seller counters your claim.

Fraser

[nctnico]

I'm also sorry to hear of your problems, but wouldn't it have been better to just pay the £16 to get hold of it? The seller marking down the value for customs purposes has probably saved more than that in import duties.

That's assuming the seller is still around in 6 months :/ I just decided against it in the end and opted to go with somewhere in the UK / Europ where I could get decent after sales support.

What makes you think a local seller will provide proper warranty and sales support? I'd just pay the 16 pounds and use the scope for as long as it works.

[ez24]

OP -->

I can tell anyone reading this that I'm going to have the last laugh in the long run.

I doubt it, maybe from the bottom of a 6 foot hole.  ie this will drive you crazy.   

[Fungus]

I'm sorry, but my sympathy is with the seller in this case. You are a nightmare customer to deal with.

<-THIS

You buy something on ebay. pay for it. Then change your mind ? sorry bub. should not have bought it.

I admit I changed my mind once on eBay (I was after something that formed a pair and I only got one of the two items).

You know what I did? I wrote to the seller and offered to let them deduct their eBay fees plus a couple of dollars for their trouble then refund me the difference.

In the end they didn't deduct the extra couple of dollars and I got positive feedback.

[Muttley Snickers]

Unfortunately people we will probably never get the opportunity to read this chapter.....

My Ebay Hantek Selling Hell

[mos6502]

I admit I changed my mind once on eBay (I was after something that formed a pair and I only got one of the two items).

You know what I did? I wrote to the seller and offered to let them deduct their eBay fees plus a couple of dollars for their trouble then refund me the difference.

In the end they didn't deduct the extra couple of dollars and I got positive feedback.

There was no need to make that offer. Cancelling a transaction doesn't cost the seller anything. If the seller refunds the money, he is refunded all eBay and PayPal fees.

[ez24]

This reminds me of a story a few months ago - I believe it was a $800 ebay purchase from Germany sent by DHL to Italy.  I think the last update it was lost in DHL never never land.

Does anyone remember this story and what ever happened?

[Mikey2016]

As I understand it my purchase is covered by the distance selling regulations. And they state that I have the right to cancel at any time without reason provided it is within 14 days of receiving the goods.
I have the right to refuse the goods if they've been sent already.

It's all here.

What Rights and Obligations Does a Buyer Have?

Buyers have seen an increase in their rights since the days of “caveat emptor”, and can be sure they will be given the same protections through the European Union.

The most important change is that the buyer’s right to withdraw from the sale has been extended from seven to fourteen days. Withdrawal allows a buyer to change their mind about whether or not they want the goods. However, they must withdraw from the sale by using an acceptable method –for example, a phone call is unlikely to be sufficient unless the seller specifically states it is. To find out what method of withdrawal is acceptable to the seller, it is necessary to look at their terms and conditions.

The buyer should keep evidence of their attempt to cancel, just in case the seller does not respond in time or refutes. If the buyer does make a phone call, they should keep a written log of this, but it would be best to use another method of cancellation.

The buyer’s right to cancel is unconditional. If they do so before the arrival of the goods, the total cost and shipping must be refunded. If the goods arrive, they can refuse to accept delivery. If the goods are lost in transit, the seller must either send new goods or offer a full refund including delivery charges. However, the buyer may be liable for shipping costs in certain circumstances. This information must be provided by the seller, usually through their terms and conditions. If it is not, the buyer will have a claim against the seller.

The risk involved in transporting the goods remains on the seller upon giving the goods to the carrier. However, if the carrier is chosen by the buyer and it is not one of the seller’s usual carriers, the risk then passes to the buyer, who is held liable for damages by the carrier.

It is the duty of the buyer to take reasonable care of the goods if they choose to return them. They must not be damaged. If they are, the seller may have a claim. And if the buyer fails to return the goods and a refund has been issued, the seller has a claim.




Ebay is governed by these laws above all others despite what ebay may claim or sellers may try and claim so I really don't care what the opinions are about what they think I'm trying to do or not.
The fact is I changed my mind end of. There's no con here. No customs dodging or any of the other sour accusations / assumptions. Just sore sellers backing up other sore sellers from the look of it.
Funny how they advocate certain dodgy practices like customs dodging but then paint people as terrible customers to be avoided when they try and exercise their rights. Pfft.

Anyway, I'm outta here. Have fun debating it.

Cheers.

[Mikey2016]

I admit I changed my mind once on eBay (I was after something that formed a pair and I only got one of the two items).

You know what I did? I wrote to the seller and offered to let them deduct their eBay fees plus a couple of dollars for their trouble then refund me the difference.

In the end they didn't deduct the extra couple of dollars and I got positive feedback.

There was no need to make that offer. Cancelling a transaction doesn't cost the seller anything. If the seller refunds the money, he is refunded all eBay and PayPal fees.

Yep, I know this anyway because I've had it happen in the past and the seller was perfectly fine. Transaction cancelled with no cost to either party.

[TheSteve]

Anyway, I'm outta here. Have fun debating it.

Whew, we can now resume talk about test equipment!

[Mikey2016]

Was somebody stopping you then TheSteve? Maybe your own compulsion to return to this post?
I'll remove the gun from your head so you can carry on your "test equipment" discussions.

[haveissues]

At what point do your rights as a buyer in your country trump his rights as a seller in his?

[KL27x]

This purchase has been painful but it's revealed the kind of seller I would have to deal with if I kept it.

What further relationship do you need? The seller of an oscilloscope doesn't necessarily have to like romantic comedies or long walks on the beach. And he doesn't necessarily even have know how to turn on an oscilloscope. If the product arrives as stated, the relationship is great. And it's done (barring bank involvement).

It is possible he could have been nice and canceled your order. You don't know the circumstances. All you have is a DHL number. You don't know his inventory management, picking, packing, and shipping systems. Canceling the order at that point could have cost him real money. It could have been impractical. It could have been out of his hands, entirely. Your package could have been one of a thousand already piled up on pallets on a loading dock. Our collective gut might think this isn't the case, but you have no way to prove he didn't act in good faith.

FYI, an oscilloscope is warranted by the manufacturer. If it arrives in good condition but later develops problems, you would contact Hantek, not the seller. The seller is not the guy doing quality control and repair of defective oscilloscopes.

[Monkeh]

As I understand it my purchase is covered by the distance selling regulations.

These regulations apply to UK sellers. You did not buy from a company in the UK, your contract was not with a company in the UK.

Pay the money and accept the scope you purchased.

[Stray Electron]

This reminds me of a story a few months ago - I believe it was a $800 ebay purchase from Germany sent by DHL to Italy.  I think the last update it was lost in DHL never never land.

Does anyone remember this story and what ever happened?

    The last that I heard, the buyer was out his money and never received his item.  I talked to Ebay shortly after that happened and I specifically asked about a situation like his.  Ebay told me that they DO NOT stand behind international shipments unless they're shipped via THEIR overseas shipping program!   THAT was news to me!  Ebay has always claimed that they stand behind the buyer if there is a defective item or if it's not delivered but I've never seen anything that said that that only applied if you bought an item and shipped it via their shipping service! 

   FWIW UPS is well known for holding items for ransom when shipping from the US to Canada and vice versa so I ALWAYS make sure of how the seller is planning on shipping and what fees are involved before entering into an international Ebay transaction.   Clearly in this case, the buyer didn't do that and IMO he got off lightly!  And further, the seller actually saved him money by mis-stating the value of the item for tax purposes.  IMO this buyer has NOTHING to complain about!  He claims QUOTE The customs declaration thing really did bother me. I know why they did it but I personally don't approve. It's just one more thing to go wrong and another excuse for me to end up conned out of my money. UNQUOTE.    Ok OP if you feel so bad about it, I suggest that you write a check for the correct amount and send it to your country's revenue service.  But I'm not holding my breath until that happens!

[TopLoser]

Now I remember why I stopped selling stuff on eBay!

[KL27x]

I agree, you should pay the customs and pick up your scope... even if you don't want it.
Rather than deal with a seller in HK who you already do not trust, take the bird in hand. And then sell it if you want your money back.

I'm reminded of a defective computer I purchased from a big box store. I finally took it back just a few days after the return policy expired. They had it for over a month, always with an update on what state it was in, where it was shipping off to, etc.

So I came down to the store in person to see if I could grease some wheels. And a rep informed me they were working on it in the back, as we spoke (hoya! I was totally shocked to hear this, because for the past 5 weeks whenever I had called, it had always been on a truck going nowhere). But that is still wasn't fixed, and they would call me when it was done (which was an empty song and dance that I was treated to at least once, already. Still I'm thilled to just have the computer back). I said no thanks. Kindly keep my money and give me the thing which I had paid for two months ago. Broken, in pieces, I don't care. Just give me all the parts in a bag, and I'll be on my way. No problem. I was done wasting my time, and I just wanted to cut my losses.

Well, apparently they didn't even have my computer. The look of distress on his face told me I had called a bluff. He scuttled away to speak to a manager, who came over to offer me a new replacement.

Point being, if it's there, I'd take it. You send it back, they have your money and you have nothing. And if you want a scope, you might like it. I have a Hantek. I bought it on Ebay. I like it. And I have received support from Hantek.

[CustomEngineerer]

Just wait until you actually do get the scope and then realize you have a genuine Hantek.

[stuartk]

Hey Micky,

Take a deep breath and don't stress it. 250 pounds for a scope that you will likely enjoy and use for years is not a big deal in the grand scheme  of things. Very likely the seller has razor thin margins, and is just barely making a living, so cut him some slack. At that price you're not expecting much of a warranty or service anyways. Whatever use you get out of it, it will be worth it.

Right now I'm toying with the idea of purchasing a $7500 MSO from Keysight and that's low end equipment to what a lot of people use. When you're making those level of purchases you expect a higher level of customer service/warranty that you still may not be guaranteed at getting. These things always break the day after the warranty ends anyways, and then cost a fortune to fix. That's when you are really held for ransom.

Many of the people on this forum have lost tens of thousands of dollars or more on projects that didn't work out or business decisions that went awry.

This kind of stress damages your coronary arteries and your enjoyment of what is a enjoyable hobby and just isn't worth it. Do your self a big favor, complete the deal, get the scope, fire it up and have some fun.

Remember you can always resell it if you don't like it and get most of your money back anyways.

As for taxes and fee's and the ransom, I hear you, I hate it, you just have to take the broomstick on that one as every level of supplier and government wants a piece of your money and there is not much you can do about it.

Have a nice day,

Stuart

[rich]

As I understand it my purchase is covered by the distance selling regulations.

See post #2, which you replied to and thanked, why these regulations don't apply here.

I don't see how he can get out of this? Or why I feel like I'm the one in the wrong

because maybe deep down you know the seller is going to be out of pocket?

You know it's funny because I've explained all of this to my bank at great length earlier today and they didn't seem to share the same opinion regarding these "binding contracts", sales laws, consumer rights etc. Ironically it was Paypal that advised me to intiate the charge back and the bank didn't disagree with the facts sorry, I mean excuses presented to them. Still, time will tell, eh?

The bank don't care who's right or wrong because the money is yanked back from the seller by default. Only if the seller manages to prove beyond doubt that it's a bogus chargeback will the decision get reversed. Whichever way it costs the seller, they either suck up the debt or spend time/money fighting it.

Just sore sellers backing up other sore sellers from the look of it.

This made me re-read the thread to make sure you weren't being served an injustice by these sore folk. I found no evidence.

Needless to say my brain went into immediate worry mode.

That's the nub right there. Immediately after ordering you got buyer's remorse, worried something might screw up in the delivery process and so you tried to cancel your order. The seller either chose to ignore your request or the process was so far along that they genuinely couldn't recall the order. It arrives well before its estimated delivery date, without incident and has a reasonable £16 DHL fee to pay, and you're now worried that DHL are trying to fleece you.


Let's hypothetically say that you held your nerve for the 6 days from order to delivery (17-23rd), or hadn't read the scaremongering which made you try to cancel, then your post would have been along the lines

"ordered scope from Hong Kong; arrived in less than a week; great price; those b'stards at DHL only took £16; tense time waiting for it but really pleased when it arrived; would recommend, great eBayer"

In none of this charade do you say you don't actually want that model of scope which you researched more than the buying process, so why can't you pay the £16 fee and enjoy your purchase?  Personally, I think you should chalk this up as a learning curve of how business and trade generally works.

If you release it from DHL and change your mind about owning it, I'll commit to buying it from you.

[ebastler]

As I understand it my purchase is covered by the distance selling regulations. And they state that I have the right to cancel at any time without reason provided it is within 14 days of receiving the goods.
I have the right to refuse the goods if they've been sent already.

It's all here. [...]

The page you probably quoted from, https://www.unlockthelaw.co.uk/distance-selling-regulations.html, discusses the European consumer protection laws. But it does have a brief section covering transactions across EU borders. Please review that section too:

What Protections Are in Place for Transactions Outside of the EEA [European Economic Area]?

The law regarding transactions taking place outside of the EEA depends on jurisdiction. It also differs slightly between England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland primarily through domestic statute, but the process is extremely similar.

When a buyer based in the UK wishes to file a claim against a seller outside of the EEA then Schedule 8 to the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgements Act 1982 applies.

The basic rule is the claimant (the buyer) must sue in the jurisdiction of the defendant (the seller). This also applies to the supply of goods, although exceptions are sometimes available.

The process normally begins with the claimant filing a claim, which should be addressed to the place of business of the defendant. The claim will be handled in the jurisdiction of the defendant. It is highly advised to check with the distance seller as to how to handle the complaint. This could help avoid any court fees or auxiliary headaches.

As mentioned earlier, I don't think the European consumer protection laws apply when you buy from outside of the European union.

[rch]

At what point do your rights as a buyer in your country trump his rights as a seller in his?

At the point the seller decides to sell to a consumer resident in the EU.

However, I'm not siding with the buyer in this case, because I don't think it is fair to refuse delivery in an international transaction.  But EU law is probably on the buyer's side.  In fact the Distance Selling Regulations he quotes have been replaced by new similar EU regulations with an even longer title, so the exact rules may  differ.  The also differ slightly between EU countries, depending on how they implement the relevant EU directive.

Edit:   the laws that apply to the transaction are those of the EU, and this is separate to the rules about which court to apply to in order to enforce them.  In practice, unless you are extremely wealthy it is best to deal with the intermediaries such as the credit card company rather than start a legal case in a foreign country.