My Ebay Hantek Buying Hell

[Pinkus]

well, let me just mention:
a) I dealt with 'ameliazhou'  before, everything was fine.
b) you ordered during chinese new year festivities: there is a two week period where almost nothing happens in China. Did you ever took this in account?

I did not read all the posts. My advise: pay the 16 pounds and get it. You should be glad you can avoid to pay more import VAT and tax. Basically you are betraying your nation with this. As a honest citizen you should inform DHL that the stated value is wrong (not your fault) and that they please should calculate VAT and import tax using the real amount of $$ you paid. Thus you can sleep well at night and you can be proud of your honesty 

[ebastler]

At what point do your rights as a buyer in your country trump his rights as a seller in his?

At the point the seller decides to sell to a consumer resident in the EU.
[...]
The laws that apply to the transaction are those of the EU, and this is separate to the rules about which court to apply to in order to enforce them. 

This is where it gets interesting. (And I don't claim to know the exact legal situation; hence my open question in post #2.)

Do you have any official reference for those statements? The reference Mikey and I had quoted above states that the "jurisdiction of the seller" applies, which not just means which court one needs to turn to, but also which laws apply. But, as you mention, the situation may have changed with the 2014 EU directive on consumer rights. A current reference would be appreciated!

(Come to think of it, isn't this forum meant to talk about a different flavor of "current reference"?  )

[Fungus]

At what point do your rights as a buyer in your country trump his rights as a seller in his?

At the point the seller decides to sell to a consumer resident in the EU.
[...]
The laws that apply to the transaction are those of the EU, and this is separate to the rules about which court to apply to in order to enforce them. 

This is where it gets interesting. (And I don't claim to know the exact legal situation; hence my open question in post #2.)

Never mind the laws. I'm pretty sure they're not designed for "I changed my mind".

First get the 'scope from DHL. If it turns out to be a cardboard box with six house-bricks in it, then you can start reading laws.

If it contains a perfectly working Hantek oscilloscope then you get what you ordered, it arrived in a very reasonable time (even in Chinese New Year!) and you didn't get stung badly with customs charges. What's the complaint?

[Mikey2016]

Just to clarify.....

Anyone selling through ebay AS A BUSINESS is subject to the DSR / CRA.

It doesn't matter if the seller is in the north pole - if they are trading through Ebay.co.uk and selling to customers in the UK, no matter where in the world their business is, they are subject to and bound by those regulations. Even ebay are ultimately bound by and governed by those regulations - as are ANY businesses trading through ebay.co.uk. The seller can write no returns etc all over their listing but those terms mean absolutely nothing when wieghed against the DSR and CRA. Anyone selling to the UK should be FULLY versed in these regulations.

Auctions are a slightly different matter but I didn't deal with an auction - I dealt with buy it now which brings the DSR and CRA into play

The seller and ebay can print whatever terms and small print they like but the DSR and the consumer rights act will always take precedent. That's what they were created for.
Anyone wishing to contact trading standards or Citizens advice can verify this.

Like I said, I can cancel. No reason needed. None of this "it's a binding contract" or "it's up to the seller's good will" nonsense.

I could set up a shop tomorrow and fill my terms and conditons with things like once you click buy it's yours, no refunds, no warranty etc but ultimately these mean naff all.


Taken from Citizens Advice:

If you bought the item online, over the phone or by mail order

You automatically get a 14-day ‘cooling-off period’ when you buy something you haven’t seen in person - unless it’s bespoke or made to measure.

The cooling-off period starts as soon as you receive your order, and there doesn’t need to be anything wrong with the item for you to get a refund.

You won’t get a cooling-off period when you buy:

    something that deteriorates quickly - like flowers or food
    an item that was personalised or custom-made for you
    anything from a private individual rather than a business
    a CD, DVD or software, if you break the seal on the wrapping

If you paid for standard delivery when you bought something, the seller has to refund this if you return it. If you chose a more expensive delivery option, you'll have to pay the difference.
Use your cooling-off period

You need to tell the seller you don’t want the item within 14 days of receiving it. Once you’ve told the seller, you’ve got another 14 days to actually send the item back.

You can use our template letter to let the seller know you’re cancelling. Keep a copy so you’ve got proof you sent it.

You could also phone - but make sure you make a note of who you speak to and what was agreed. It’s a good idea to follow up with a letter or email.

Sellers must give you certain information when you buy something without seeing it in person. This includes their business address and phone number, and details of your right to cancel. If you didn’t get this in writing (they’re allowed to send it by email) then your cooling off period is increased even further, to a year and 14 days.

14 days is the absolute minimum cooling-off period that a seller must give you. Make sure you check the terms and conditions in case they’ve given you more time to change your mind - many choose to do so.


 

[Mikey2016]

At what point do your rights as a buyer in your country trump his rights as a seller in his?

At the point the seller decides to sell to a consumer resident in the EU.
[...]
The laws that apply to the transaction are those of the EU, and this is separate to the rules about which court to apply to in order to enforce them. 

This is where it gets interesting. (And I don't claim to know the exact legal situation; hence my open question in post #2.)

Never mind the laws. I'm pretty sure they're not designed for "I changed my mind".

See my previous post.

Indeed I can change my mind when the items have been purchased over the internet. It's an automatic 14 day cooling off period.
I can cancel at ANY time even if the goods have been sent.

Cheers.

[matseng]

The EU consumer rights apply for purchases within the EU area.

From the website of European Consumer Centre Ireland at http://www.eccireland.ie/popular-consumer-topics/shopping-online/

Consumers should also bear in mind that if you buy from a trader based outside the EU/EEA, European consumer legislation may not be applicable, so it is important that you check all the relevant details before placing an order. If you are unfamiliar with the trader and you are not satisfied that they are based within the EU/EEA, you should exercise extreme caution. Under European legislation traders are required to indicate their geographic address on the website; if you do not feel confident because the address does not seem to be genuine or there is no address at all, our advice is to purchase elsewhere.

Warning : If you shop from websites based outside the EU your European consumer rights will not apply and you may face unexpected customs and tax bills!

[wraper]

 Mikey2016 all I know, you are arrogant noob who's ebay rating is only 9 (edit, not sure about this) and who is proud of cancelling the orders and screwing up the sellers. Good luck in your life with such attitude. If you receive the scope and keep the money, this is called fraud.

[Mikey2016]

Mikey2016 all I know, you are arrogant noob who's ebay rating is only 9 and who is proud of cancelling the orders and screwing up the sellers. Good luck in your life with such attitude. If you receive the scope and keep the money, this is called fraud.

So where did I say I was planning on keeping the money and the scope? Please do tell me where I said this?
Don't try and question my honesty or integrity when I'm not the one that couldn't be straight to begin with!

Oh yes, I absolutely get off on making sellers life hell just for the fun of it. Makes my day all day every day. I'm going to do it again tomorrow just because I like spending money and creating problems just to put sellers out of pocket. Yep, you've rumbled me. Damn! That's my scam exposed.

Aint nothing wrong with my ebay rating pal. Never had any major issues that couldn't be worked out reasonably in 12+ years of being a member.

[Fungus]

You need to tell the seller you don’t want the item within 14 days of receiving it. Once you’ve told the seller, you’ve got another 14 days to actually send the item back.

Ummmm, you haven't received it yet.

...and UK laws don't apply to everybody else in the entire world. Ask a Texan if you need any clarification on that point, i'm sure they'll explain it clearly.

[Macbeth]

Mikey, gr8 b8 m8!

[Kilrah]

Indeed I can change my mind when the items have been purchased over the internet

IN THE COUNTRIES these regulations apply to. Ie UK/EU. Not China.

[PTR_1275]

And yet no one has mentioned that Chinese New Year finished a few days before the purchase. The backlogs would have been huge and probably contributed to delays in shipping / communications in general.

I've had several orders with dhl ship from our warehouse and not show on tracking for a day or 2, so the seller was probably telling the truth about it already being shipped.

[BillyD]

And yet no one has mentioned that Chinese New Year finished a few days before the purchase. The backlogs would have been huge and probably contributed to delays in shipping / communications in general.

I've had several orders with dhl ship from our warehouse and not show on tracking for a day or 2, so the seller was probably telling the truth about it already being shipped.

Actually there have been a couple of mentions of it, see #53 and #55 above where they make a similar point to yours.

[PTR_1275]

My bad, yes you are correct that it's been mentioned previously.

[StuUK]

Just to clarify.....

Anyone selling through ebay AS A BUSINESS is subject to the DSR / CRA.

It doesn't matter if the seller is in the north pole - if they are trading through Ebay.co.uk and selling to customers in the UK, no matter where in the world their business is, they are subject to and bound by those regulations. Even ebay are ultimately bound by and governed by those regulations - as are ANY businesses trading through ebay.co.uk. The seller can write no returns etc all over their listing but those terms mean absolutely nothing when wieghed against the DSR and CRA. Anyone selling to the UK should be FULLY versed in these regulations.

Auctions are a slightly different matter but I didn't deal with an auction - I dealt with buy it now which brings the DSR and CRA into play

The seller and ebay can print whatever terms and small print they like but the DSR and the consumer rights act will always take precedent. That's what they were created for.
Anyone wishing to contact trading standards or Citizens advice can verify this.

Like I said, I can cancel. No reason needed. None of this "it's a binding contract" or "it's up to the seller's good will" nonsense.

I could set up a shop tomorrow and fill my terms and conditons with things like once you click buy it's yours, no refunds, no warranty etc but ultimately these mean naff all.


Taken from Citizens Advice:

If you bought the item online, over the phone or by mail order

You automatically get a 14-day ‘cooling-off period’ when you buy something you haven’t seen in person - unless it’s bespoke or made to measure.

The cooling-off period starts as soon as you receive your order, and there doesn’t need to be anything wrong with the item for you to get a refund.

You won’t get a cooling-off period when you buy:

    something that deteriorates quickly - like flowers or food
    an item that was personalised or custom-made for you
    anything from a private individual rather than a business
    a CD, DVD or software, if you break the seal on the wrapping

If you paid for standard delivery when you bought something, the seller has to refund this if you return it. If you chose a more expensive delivery option, you'll have to pay the difference.
Use your cooling-off period

You need to tell the seller you don’t want the item within 14 days of receiving it. Once you’ve told the seller, you’ve got another 14 days to actually send the item back.

You can use our template letter to let the seller know you’re cancelling. Keep a copy so you’ve got proof you sent it.

You could also phone - but make sure you make a note of who you speak to and what was agreed. It’s a good idea to follow up with a letter or email.

Sellers must give you certain information when you buy something without seeing it in person. This includes their business address and phone number, and details of your right to cancel. If you didn’t get this in writing (they’re allowed to send it by email) then your cooling off period is increased even further, to a year and 14 days.

14 days is the absolute minimum cooling-off period that a seller must give you. Make sure you check the terms and conditions in case they’ve given you more time to change your mind - many choose to do so.


 

NOT A CHANCE!! You purchased outside of the EU!

[pascal_sweden]

Honestly I don't get this story from the Original Poster.

Either you buy something and stick with the original plan, or you don't buy it in the first place.
Think twice before you order something.

You have really overcomplicated all these things yourself.

I really hope for yourself that this is a one time event where you overcomplicated something, and that you don't overcomplicate other things in life, otherwise your life must be very very complex....

[ebastler]

Anyone selling through ebay AS A BUSINESS is subject to the DSR / CRA.
[...]
The seller and ebay can print whatever terms and small print they like but the DSR and the consumer rights act will always take precedent. That's what they were created for.
Anyone wishing to contact trading standards or Citizens advice can verify this.

Like I said, I can cancel. No reason needed. None of this "it's a binding contract" or "it's up to the seller's good will" nonsense.

Taken from Citizens Advice:
[...]

 

Since you trust the citizensadvice website, why not read this page as well:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/buying-abroad/buying-abroad/buying-from-an-overseas-seller-outside-europe/

It seems that the page you quoted from describes the situation within the EU correctly. But it neglects to mention the implicit assummption that both, the buyer and the seller, are located in an EU country.

[Fraser]

I have said it before and it is worth repeating........

Life is too short for this sort of crap. £250 for a DSO is a good price. It comes from China where prices are low and margins are slim. Chinese sellers tend to have a far harder life than we enjoy in the UK. Please consider this.

Mikey, please stand back for a moment, try to disconnect your UK/European centric views and consider whether you are being totally logical about this situation.

You wanted a DSO at a great price, you have potentially got a DSO at a great price. You are worried about support, but have no reason to think the DSO will be poor quality and fail quickly. The savings you have made would effectively offset the repair cost anyway. Remember, this is ONLY a £250 scope and not a multi thousand pound purchase.

Please think about Karma here. Is it right to take the action that you have against the seller when he or she has provided what was ordered, and in very quick time. You changing your mind was an unfair act in Chinese thought processes. The Chinese view of business is very different to that found in the UK. You made a mistake in your mind. I beg to differ, I think you made a good decision to buy from a good Chinese seller.

You state you have been on eBay over 12 years, so surely you were already aware that most, if not all Chinese sellers on eBay place a nominal value on a consignment ? HMRC are well aware of this, but the man hours to pursue the thousands of relatively low value parcels is uneconomic. The situation is very different for high value consignments though.

I am 48 and have just retired from a high stress job. I am now enjoying life.
My best friend dropped dead of a Heart attack last week at age 63, my head of section and deputy head of section both died of cancer last year, both were aged 63 ! ....... This gives you some perspective on life. From your posts I am guessing you are still quite young and full of youthful energy and expectations. If this is true, PLEASE consider what is important in life and discount the small annoyances that occur along the way. It took me until I was 43 to realise this important life view. I got very ill and I am still fighting to get back to the health that I hope you enjoy. This tends to focus the mind on what is, and is not truly important to a well formed and happy life. You have finite time to enjoy it and I regret wasting some of mine worrying about what I could not influence or change. I used to be a bit like you, a dog with a bone. You have to learn to let it go.

My advice from the heart is, swallow your pride and views on what is totally right or wrong, and pay the £16 to DHL, take delivery of the DSO and enjoy it !
This will be a very positive experience I can assure you.

Then contact your card company and cancel the chargeback as the situation is resolved.

Contact the seller and explain that you have accepted the delivery and cancelled the charge back. The seller can use this to sort out any issues your chargeback has caused at their end. Please have some compassion for this seller.

Finally, if you truthfully have issues with not paying your correct level of VAT, please contact HMRC and explain that there was an undercharge on a parcel you received. They will think you mad, but will happily accept the additional VAT payment. You can then relax about not paying your dues to British society.

Have a good life full of positivity and do not waste any of it on silly little disagreements or conflicts.

Fraser

[Fraser]

Further my last,

Please re-read this thread. The majority of posts are trying to be helpful and highlight that you may be acting somewhat irrationally in this situation.

Criticism is never easy to take, but please consider the fact that anyone cared enough to answer, and like me, took the time to write a response. Our time is valuable to us you know. In my case I am not 'bashing' you over this, just trying to give you a slightly different perspective on life that will serve you well in the years ahead.

Fraser

[timb]

Mikey, sorry, you're wrong. You don't have any right of return when purchased from a company in China. They sell through eBay.com, with a worldwide listing. EU laws *do not* apply.

Cancel the chargeback. Pay the €16. Use the scope.

Or, keep digging your hole.

Either way. (Though, if you chose the latter, I hope a representative from your bank finds this thread when researching the chargeback, laughs at you, declines it and then closes your bank account. Now *that* would be funny. Talk about just desserts.)

[Jwalling]

b) The seller is stuck with non-refundable eBay/Paypal fees (at what point did you offer to pay those for him?)

Sorry, I'm with the seller. With all the eBay fees, chargebacks, etc., he's probably already lost money on this.

I'm with the seller as well, but I was under the impression that if the seller hadn't shipped it yet and canceled the sale, that all the Ebay and Paypal fees are returned.
I did this for a buyer several months ago and that was the case then, anyway...

Jay

[iloveelectronics]

I'm with the seller as well, but I was under the impression that if the seller hadn't shipped it yet and canceled the sale, that all the Ebay and Paypal fees are returned.
I did this for a buyer several months ago and that was the case then, anyway...

Jay

Yes, if a transaction is cancelled on eBay all fees are refunded to both parties. I think the likely situation was, as someone else already said, that the seller didn't really stock the item but had to order it from the supplier first. He/she shouldn't have falsely advertise dispatch within 1 day though, which was what started this whole mess. Had the seller been honest and responsive right from the start I guess everyone would have been happier.

Having said that, I also agree that the OP should simply pay the £16, get the scope and move on. Life's too short for this kind of drama.

[vk6zgo]

Mikey, sorry, you're wrong. You don't have any right of return when purchased from a company in China. They sell through eBay.com, with a worldwide listing. EU laws *do not* apply.

Cancel the chargeback. Pay the €16. Use the scope.

Or, keep digging your hole.

Either way. (Though, if you chose the latter, I hope a representative from your bank finds this thread when researching the chargeback, laughs at you, declines it and then closes your bank account. Now *that* would be funny. Talk about just desserts.)

The OP is the bank's customer--they make good money out of him.
If they decline  the chargeback,that is one thing,but why would they close his account?

Over the last 30 or so years,an idea has grown up that banks are somehow doing you a favour,in accepting your business.
From that has come the habit of charging extortionate fees to operate accounts,penalties for "insufficient funds" refusals which are out of proportion to the real costs involved,etc.

The latter is,thankfully being addressed in Australia,where banks look like having to repay millions of dollars.

[Fred27]

When everyone here is trying you that you're wrong, maybe it's time to consider, however fleetingly, that maybe you are wrong. It sounds like that seller has been helpful and you have been a very difficult customer.


Please never buy anything from me on eBay. Definitely don't enter the 'scope giveaway on here. I'd hate to think what you'll find to complain about if you were even slightly inconvenienced by winning it.

[vk6zgo]

I'm with the seller as well, but I was under the impression that if the seller hadn't shipped it yet and canceled the sale, that all the Ebay and Paypal fees are returned.
I did this for a buyer several months ago and that was the case then, anyway...

Jay

Yes, if a transaction is cancelled on eBay all fees are refunded to both parties. I think the likely situation was, as someone else already said, that the seller didn't really stock the item but had to order it from the supplier first. He/she shouldn't have falsely advertise dispatch within 1 day though, which was what started this whole mess. Had the seller been honest and responsive right from the start I guess everyone would have been happier.

Having said that, I also agree that the OP should simply pay the £16, get the scope and move on. Life's too short for this kind of drama.

Here's someone who is actually in Hong Kong who says the seller is not without fault in this situation.
The funny thing is,I have seen similar threads on this forum,where folks have been on the buyer's side.

I have also worked somewhere where we bought quite expensive stuff from a company in China (5 specially built units).
They  were all "dead on arrival",& were returned for repair.
After some weeks they came back,& one of them "sort of" worked.

We ended up fixing them ourselves,but got the "run-around" every time we tried to source information, parts,etc,from the manufacturer.
There seemed to be public holidays every time we contacted them!

Yes,we got screwed,but it was cheaper in the end,to pretty much disengage,and source everything we possibly could from other suppliers,only getting proprietary bits from them.

With this experience,I agree with the others about fighting this---there are things worth "going to the barricades" about,but this isn't one.