My Ebay Hantek Buying Hell

[Mikey2016]

Hi there,

I've been lurking around the boards here for a few weeks reading all the stuff I can find about Hantek and Rigol scopes with a view to buying my first scope and maybe modding it up etc. A friend of mine has a Rigol 1052E which I was able to hack up to 100Mhz very easily thanks to a post I came across round here when researching Hanteks

Long story short in the end I decided to go for a Hantek DSO5102B - the best I could afford for my budget (£250) - unfortunately I made the silly mistake of ordering one from a seller on ebay from Hong Kong. What an absolute mistake! I've had nothing but grief since I laid my eyes on that listing. Some my fault for being too hasty but the rest has been sheer avoidable hell.

Stupidly thinking to myself that I'd thought of everything, I hastily placed my order with the seller on Feb 17th. Out of all the listings on Ebay this one had the best price with the quickest dispatch (within 1 day of cleared payment) and delivery between 25th Feb and 4th March. By Feb 18th the scope hadn't been shipped so I contacted the seller to see if they were planning on shipping it that day. By Feb 19th the item hadn't been shipped and I'd had no reply from the seller.

In the mean time I'd been further reading and had come across some rather nasty stories regarding buying scopes from Hong Kong - particularly how they were offering free shipping to certain countries and then charging an additional $40 for shipping. I'd also read of issues people have had with warranties and quite frankly all of this and the fact the item hand't been dispatched yet put me off.
So on the 19th of Feb, I contacted the seller and told them to cancel the order and refund the money and that in a nutshell I wanted to order it somewhere else local instead.

At some point on the same day (Feb 19th) I conveniently got a response from the seller appologising for not responding and stating that he had shipped the item and provided a DHL tracking number and a little message stating he had marked the item down in value to $49 for shipping purposes. Needless to say my brain went into immediate worry mode. Firstly it appeared I had missed my opportunity to cancel but also that being DHL I was expecting all sorts of customs issues owing to the falsely declared value.

At this point I did nothing. I didn't even respond. I didn't see the point if he had shipped it already. I'd just got to suck it and see and then deal with returning it.
So, I took the tracking number and tried it in the DHL tracking system but nothing came up. I presumed at that point it was too early. I've never dealt with DHL before so I don't know what I should see or when.

Two days later, 21st Feb the tracking number finally works in DHL and what should I see but DHL tracking telling me the parcel was picked up from the seller on the 21st!
What's wrong with that I hear you ask? Well, I issued a request to cancel the sale through ebay on the 19th and the seller responded to that very cancellation request stating it had been dispatched when clearly it hadn't. Not only that but he had taken it upon himself to fraudulently claim the item was worth less than it actually was. Rather than listen to my instructions he thought I'll tell him it's been shipped, give him a tracking number and he'll think it's too late to cancel - and he was right - that's what happened.

Fast forward to yesterday 23rd Feb and the item is now within reach but is being held pending a DHL release charge ransom (which is conveniently the same everywhere I read of £16 no matter the value of the item). And if you think that's the end of it, OH NO!

Seeing that the item was being held to ransom, last night I contacted the seller to finally lodge my complaint that he'd disregarded my request to cancel and that I'd clearly cancelled in time before the item was physically shipped, that I had proof of all of this and that I wont be accepting it and that I want a refund. Needless to say this morning there were no replys from the seller so I looked to ebay to help.
What a waste of time.

To make matters worse, at the time I ordered, I didn't have enough funds in the bank account associated with our paypal acount (my girlfriend and I share an ebay and paypal account but it's connected to her card and bank) so I paid through the ebay account, using the paypal form but with my own debit card stupidly thinking I'd still get the same protection. WRONG... That's just the excuse they need to wash their hands of the matter. Ebay wont even discuss the matter. There's no option to raise a dispute of any sort. They tell me to see paypal. Because I paid on my card there is no paypal account it's a guest payment. At this point I ring paypal and ask them why I'm not covered. They tell me first I need to create my own paypal account for the card I paid with else they can't deal with it. So I do this and then they tell me basically I'm screwed. I should just accept the item and pay the customs money even though I can prove 100% I cancelled before the item was even shipped.

As far as paypal are concerned the transaction through ebay is nothing to do with them even though I have evidence on ebay that I cancelled within good time. And of course ebay are washing their hands by passing it off to paypal. So all in all, ZERO protection from them even though it was a registered ebay account and all the evidence lies therein. At that point in time I went off for a think.

Then earlier this afternoon while I was out, I get a phone call from my mum saying that DHL tried delivering and wanted £16 so when I got home a couple of hours ago, I rang them to inform them of the situation and asked how I could get the item returned to the sender. Aparently I either have to accept it, contact the seller to recall it or keep refusing it until it's returned to sender automatically in 30 days. The problem here is that if I don't accept the item now it will dissapear back into transit and I'll have no proof it ever got returned and so will lose any chance of a refund.

I explained to the DHL rep that I had initally ordered the item but had cancelled 2 days before DHL picked it up for shipping and that the seller had given a false declaration / value for the item and that I wasn't comfortable with that idea. I explained that I'd tried since to contact the seller who seems to have fallen off the face of the earth and all they could advise me to do was to either pay and accept the item or wait 30 days and I'll never see it again.

So, I get back on the phone to paypal to re-appeal my case and explain that DHL have informed me I need to accept it or get it returned but to get it returned would mean I have no proof it was returned.
Paypal informed me that I would have no protection at all in that case and again made it clear there was nothing they could or would do since the item is pending delivery and I'm refusing it.
The paypal rep did suggest that I either pay the ransom or do a charge back on my visa debit so that's what I've been forced to do.

I rang my bank last of all and explained the situation to them and they've requested a charge back but I'm still not out of the woods. The charge back can take up to a week and I've got a £250 scope floating around between DHL and my house and it's looking like I'm going to be forced to pay the ransom and accept delivery or lose it altogether. The problem is if I accept the delivery, it looks like I'm trying to have my cake and eat it. I've requested a charge back but I've had the item. The seller will say I've accepted delivery therefore I've had the item when in reality I've got absolutely no choice in the matter. I either pay it or lose out.

So that's where I'm at right now. A £250 scope I didn't want stuck in the hands of DHL with a ransom on it's head and no means of cancelling the order without it costing me more money for an item I didn't want.

I can tell anyone reading this that I'm going to have the last laugh in the long run. I've been utterly honest, I'm not trying to con anyone and I'm getting p00ped all over and I'm not happy.
So if I sign for this here scope tomorrow and pay the ransom and I then get the charge back done successfully, Mr Seller is going to be getting a lovely email from me stating if he wants his scope back he can pay all the shipping, all the duties and taxes both ways and any other costs I've incured as a result. See how he likes it!

And as for ebay and Paypal, they can both take a running jump from now on. All the money I've put through their hands over the years and the first chance they get to wriggle out of something... Pfft.
Disgusting.

And for anyone wondering what horrific seller I've been dealing with on ebay, they go by the seller name ameliazhou and if I were anyone thinking of buying from them, I'd avoid them completely.
Knowing what I know now I would avoid buying any items above £20 in value from Hong Kong / China in the future. In fact it's made me think twice about ebay and paypal if I'm honest. In this case they offer me no help at all despite the weighted evidence they are willfully ignoring.

Ultimately I've been denied my right to cancel and I'm not at all happy. Ebay and Paypal have both let me down despite proof I cancelled this order and now I'm having all this grief.
Yes, I should have known better. Less haste, more brain in future. I'm as angry with myself as I am with Ebay, Paypal and this shoddy seller.

For anyone reading this, I will update the outcome. I may also if time permits grab screen shots of the emails with the sensitive date removed obviously which shows my instructions to the seller telling them to cancel the order on Feb 19th, the reply from the seller on the same day saying the item had been sent and finally a screen shot of the DHL tracking which states clearly the package was picked up on Feb 21st - 2 days after I cancelled and he responded directly to my cancellation request so he can't deny I cancelled.


Cheers! Hope this saves someone else from this hassle. Buy from UK / Europe!!!

[ebastler]

I am sorry to hear about your mishaps. I hope you either end up with a scope you like, or manage to return it without too much of a penalty to pay.

However, for my own education: You mention the "right to cancel", which you feel you have been denied in this case. What terms and conditions do grant you that right, when buying from an international seller? I have always been under the assumption that my ebay purchase is a binding contractual commitment, and that the seller is not obliged to accept a cancellation, or a return of the article unless it is damaged.

European consumer laws grant non-commercial customers the right to return an item within 14 days. (And hence sellers are happy to cancel an order if you decide against the purchase before it has shipped, to save the shipping cost and hassle.) But these laws don't apply to purchases from overseas, I think. Do ebay's terms define a separate "right to cancel"?

[Gyro]

I'm also sorry to hear of your problems, but wouldn't it have been better to just pay the £16 to get hold of it? The seller marking down the value for customs purposes has probably saved more than that in import duties.

[Mikey2016]

Hi ebastler and thank you.

Sorry, when I say I was denied my right to cancel, what I meant was that the seller has intentionally mislead me into thinking it was too late to cancel the order.
When I contacted the seller on Feb 19th via ebay to reqest the order be cancelled he replied the same day and stated it had been dispatched and gave me the tracking number along with telling me he'd declared it's value at $49. All of which without my concent. My last instructions were to cancel the order. He replied to that same cancellation message (so obviously ignoring my request) saying it had been shipped.

So from my point of view based on his reply I thought it was too late to cancel and get a refund.
In reality, DHL tracking states they didn't pick up the scope from the seller in Hong Kong until Feb 21st so he knowingly lied. He had two days to cancel my order but chose to continue with the sale.

Had the scope made it through customs, I would have returned it at his expense owing to this fact.

Now I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place and tomorrow, I can't see that I have much choice other than to pay the DHL ransom and accept it and then it'll go back to the seller with the cost of  return shipping, the £16 ransom and any other costs I end up with being added to the refundable amount. By my reckoning, I'm more than in the right here given I clearly cancelled and he chose to wilfully ignore that cancellation.

I don't see how he can get out of this? Or why I feel like I'm the one in the wrong
I cancelled in good time, he replied to the cancellation message same day saying it had been shipped. DHL tracking shows they didn't collect until 2 days later.

Well, lets see what fun and games tomorrow brings because I've since contacted the seller with MY terms and his options.
He had better hope that if I sign for the scope tomorrow that the Visa company doesn't refund me else this seller is going to find out what a ransom is. I shouldn't have to resort to this but if they want to play unfair with me then it's fight fire with fire time I guess.

 

[Fungus]

Pay the 16 Quid, get the 'scope. You got off lightly there, customs could have charged you a lot more.

(funny how people forget about customs/import charges when they buy stuff "cheap" from China).

Now send the seller £250 via paypal.

It won't make up for the mess you've created but it will help.

[ebastler]

Sorry, when I say I was denied my right to cancel, what I meant was that the seller has intentionally mislead me into thinking it was too late to cancel the order.
When I contacted the seller on Feb 19th via ebay to reqest the order be cancelled he replied the same day and stated it had been dispatched and gave me the tracking number along with telling me he'd declared it's value at $49. All of which without my concent. My last instructions were to cancel the order. He replied to that same cancellation message (so obviously ignoring my request) saying it had been shipped.

So from my point of view based on his reply I thought it was too late to cancel and get a refund.
In reality, DHL tracking states they didn't pick up the scope from the seller in Hong Kong until Feb 21st so he knowingly lied. He had two days to cancel my order but chose to continue with the sale.

Hi Mikey,

yes, the seller would apparently have had the possibility to cancel your order. But I don't think that he was obliged to do so. He could have replied and told you: "Sorry, we have a deal, I don't accept a cancellation anymore". And if you now approach him to return the scope, he might equally say: "Sorry, the scope is in working order and as described in my ebay listing. I have fulfilled my part of the deal; I hold you to your binding purchase order and don't accept a return".

At least that's my understanding of the legal situation. But I might be overlooking some ebay terms or legislation which gives you further rights; hence my original question.

[Mikey2016]

I'm also sorry to hear of your problems, but wouldn't it have been better to just pay the £16 to get hold of it? The seller marking down the value for customs purposes has probably saved more than that in import duties.

Hi Gyro,

I would love to but the £16 isn't really my problem. It's still a cheap scope if I add that to the price but it's what put me off originally that made me cancel.
It's the warranty hassle. I'm even less confident in that now I've seen how ebay / paypal have responded to my case. I can see me having all types of problems if anything goes wrong.
That's assuming the seller is still around in 6 months :/ I just decided against it in the end and opted to go with somewhere in the UK / Europ where I could get decent after sales support.

The customs declaration thing really did bother me. I know why they did it but I personally don't approve. It's just one more thing to go wrong and another excuse for me to end up conned out of my money.
I look at it like if something were to or has happened to it in transit, looking at the problems I've already had, I can see the fun I'd have trying to get that one sorted with the seller worming their way out of responsibility.

Knowing what I know now with this seller and how he deliberately mislead me, I just want to get rid of the thing, get it back to him and get my money back.
This purchase has been painful but it's revealed the kind of seller I would have to deal with if I kept it.

[wraper]

If seller would declare the right value, you would have to pay about £60, not £16. As for saying that he lied about that item was already shipped, this in not necessary true. Seller could have used some intermediary between him and DHL, therefore the item could be already dispatched but not scanned by DHL yet. It is not rare that item is dispatched from Hong-Kong while the seller is located in mainland China. Also February 21 is Sunday, and it doesn't seem likely that could actually dispatch it on this day. Even if he lied, very likely he does not have his own stock, therefore already spend his money for purchasing the scope at the moment you contacted him about cancelling the order. Just pay those £16.

[Fungus]

yes, the seller would apparently have had the possibility to cancel your order. But I don't think that he was obliged to do so. He could have replied and told you: "Sorry, we have a deal, I don't accept a cancellation anymore".

Yep, an eBay sale is a contract.

He also has a binding contract with eBay to pay their fees. He can't simply mark an order as "cancelled" and pay nothing. EBay will still charge him the full amount for the sale - could be 10%.

EBay doesn't allow order cancellation because people could agree to pay for stuff outside of eBay and avoid seller's fees by simply marking things as 'cancelled'.

[tautech]

If seller would declare the right value, you would have to pay about £60, not £16. As for saying that he lied about that item was already shipped, this in not necessary true. Seller could have used some intermediary between him and DHL, therefore the item could be already dispatched but not scanned by DHL yet. It is not rare that item is dispatched from Hong-Kong while the seller is located in mainland China. Also February 21 is Sunday, and it doesn't seem likely that could actually dispatch it on this day. Even if he lied, very likely he does not have his own stock, therefore already spend his money for purchasing the scope at the moment you contacted him about cancelling the order. Just pay those £16.

+1

[Fungus]

...it's what put me off originally that made me cancel.
It's the warranty hassle. I'm even less confident in that now I've seen how ebay / paypal have responded to my case. I can see me having all types of problems if anything goes wrong.
That's assuming the seller is still around in 6 months :/ I just decided against it in the end and opted to go with somewhere in the UK / Europ where I could get decent after sales support.

Maybe the 'scope will be fine and last for 10 years with no problems.

The customs declaration thing really did bother me. I know why they did it but I personally don't approve. It's just one more thing to go wrong and another excuse for me to end up conned out of my money.

Huh? He did you a big favor and took a risk in the process.

You saved 50 Quid, he risked being caught for fraud charges (fines, confiscations...)

That's not a "con", that's customer service above and beyond the call of duty.

[wraper]

BTW, do not forget about different time zones. By the moment you sent the message on the feb 18th, most likely, business day in China was already ended.

[Gyro]

I'm also sorry to hear of your problems, but wouldn't it have been better to just pay the £16 to get hold of it? The seller marking down the value for customs purposes has probably saved more than that in import duties.

Hi Gyro,

I would love to but the £16 isn't really my problem. It's still a cheap scope if I add that to the price but it's what put me off originally that made me cancel.
It's the warranty hassle. I'm even less confident in that now I've seen how ebay / paypal have responded to my case. I can see me having all types of problems if anything goes wrong.
That's assuming the seller is still around in 6 months :/ I just decided against it in the end and opted to go with somewhere in the UK / Europ where I could get decent after sales support.

The customs declaration thing really did bother me. I know why they did it but I personally don't approve. It's just one more thing to go wrong and another excuse for me to end up conned out of my money.
I look at it like if something were to or has happened to it in transit, looking at the problems I've already had, I can see the fun I'd have trying to get that one sorted with the seller worming their way out of responsibility.

Knowing what I know now with this seller and how he deliberately mislead me, I just want to get rid of the thing, get it back to him and get my money back.
This purchase has been painful but it's revealed the kind of seller I would have to deal with if I kept it.

So basically, you ordered something at a low price, then thought about things like warranty and changed your mind. You are now upset that you weren't able to cancel it. You're using everything else the "DHL ransom" seller's 'dishonesty' etc. as an excuse.

I'm sorry, but my sympathy is with the seller in this case. You are a nightmare customer to deal with.

[Kilrah]

So from my point of view based on his reply I thought it was too late to cancel and get a refund.

Aren't ebay transactions non-cancellable in the first place bar "force majeure" (which "I don't want it anymore" certainly isn't)? So the seller's answer of "too late" being only something to try and make the pill a bit easier to swallow than a harsh "no cancellations as per eBay terms you agreed to".

Or why I feel like I'm the one in the wrong

To me, you are. £16 for a £250 item shipped internationally and going through customs is normal if not actually pretty cheap. "Destination country's VAT + handling charges" is standard practice, it's documented, it's not hard to find out about.
Then the whole "How do I deal with warranty from a seller I don't know who's at the other end of the world and where it would take me 30% of the original cost to ship it back to" also isn't that hard to figure out, and most importantly is something to consider and weigh BEFORE clicking the "Buy" button. Along with reading the conditions for the sale and various protection options.

I agree with the "pay the £16, take the scope, wait until you have confirmation of the cashback, if it worked contact the seller and pay him, this time through a proper paypal account, if not leave it at that", by all means stop jumping around and try to think before you act as until now pretty much every step you've taken has made matters worse.

But at this point you're the one being unfair to the seller. He's probably going to end up with £50+ in shipping losses due to YOUR mistakes and freaking out instead of thinking before buying.

[Mikey2016]

Pay the 16 Quid, get the 'scope. You got off lightly there, customs could have charged you a lot more.

(funny how people forget about customs/import charges when they buy stuff "cheap" from China).

Now send the seller £250 via paypal.

It won't make up for the mess you've created but it will help.

I'll have a big bag of whatever you've been smoking this evening. Cheers.

I didn't forget anything and it's quite clear what you're implying. I couldn't give a stuff about the current £16 ransom or the import duties even if he had declared it at its true value (which I would have preferred). I was well aware of the risks when I initally purchased the item and was quite prepared to pay the duties since it clearly states it all over the listing.
What don't you grasp about the simple premise that I didn't want it, I changed for my mind reasons I covered in my first post well before it even left the sellers hands and that I instructed the seller to cancel but he chose not to? Is that to difficult or should I spell it out in large font in crayon? 

And what on earth are you babbling about with "I should send £250 to clear up the mess"? Dude, do yourself a favor and stay off the hard stuff!
Double 

So, if I understood correctly, you ordered sth, regretted, sent a cancellation, then the seller told you he already sent it but that was not the truth. 2 days later, he did send the item, then you got trouble with DHL custom fee. It that correct?

AFAIK, "sent a cancellation, then the seller told you he already sent it but that was not the truth" is the only wrong the seller did. Other than that, it is all your problem. You should anticipate DHL custom service fee in advance, and you should not bypass PP buyer protection.

Right now, either you pay 16 to protect your 250 investment, or you risk 250 to get it (hopefully) refunded.

You should feel lucky because custom did not discover the fact that it was under valued on CN22, or you are subject to penalty or confiscation.

If only 250 quids floating gets you really worried, you should think twice about this hobby. This hobby IS expensive.

The only wrong he did? Oh boy.  NVM. Go back sleep. 
What's this obsession with customs? Customs has nothing to do with this issue. I couldn't care less about customs or the price. That's not the point. The point which is getting glossed over is that I, the *** customer told the seller not to continue with the sale before any goods had been sent. The seller lied and ignored this. End of. If people are struggling to grasp that simple concept then I give up.

 

[Kilrah]

What don't you grasp about the simple premise that I didn't want it, I changed for my mind reasons I covered in my first post

What you don't grasp is you didn't have that freedom. Once you click the buy button it's done. There's no changing minds, the thinking must be done before the clicking, not after.

The reason people talk about the customs is that you keep mentioning the "£16 ransom" so it seems you put importance on it - instead of the facts that actually matter.

[Gyro]

There you go again, don't you understand that buying something and then deciding you don't want it is entirely YOUR problem, not the seller's. 

[wraper]

What don't you grasp about the simple premise that I didn't want it, I changed for my mind reasons I covered in my first post well before it even left the sellers hands and that I instructed the seller to cancel but he chose not to? Is that to difficult or should I spell it out in large font in crayon? 

What you do not grasp is that seller have no obligation to cancel the order at all. You don't have the right to cancel the order on ebay, this can be only a favor from the seller to do this. By the time you made a purchase, seller already owed £25 to ebay.

[TheAmmoniacal]

Haven't read the whole post, but I can share my dealings with DHL.

Ordered some parts from TME.eu, only £20 worth of parts, got delivered pretty fast with DHL, they just handed me the package as they should. 2 weeks later I get an invoice for £35, claiming they paid the VAT for me and they had a fee for paying VAT up front. But the £20 is below the VAT limit, so I tried to complain.

No contact on the phone, nothing on email.. Just a week later I get a late fee added on top and a warning that they are sending it to debt collectors. Now it's £40, and still completely unable to contact DHL, I wait.. Next week I get a letter from the debt collector, £45 now and legalese writing that scared me... Decided to just pay it so it won't escalate any further (fearing a strike on my credit history).

The morning the day after I paid DHL, they contact me, apologizes for the mistake and say they've cancelled the invoice. Too late.. I email them again, ask if I can have it refunded, not heard from them..

[ebastler]

[...] 

Time to quiet down, man... You placed a binding order, then got second thoughts about it; but that does not give you the right to cancel the order or return the item. Maybe the seller wanted to avoid a confrontation by telling you "too late to cancel", but it does not matter -- he would have won that confrontation anyway.

Pay the customs fee, get the scope ad use it -- I hope it will be useful for your projects.

[TheSteve]

[...] 

Time to quiet down, man... You placed a binding order, then got second thoughts about it; but that does not give you the right to cancel the order or return the item. Maybe the seller wanted to avoid a confrontation by telling you "too late to cancel", but it does not matter -- he would have won that confrontation anyway.

Pay the customs fee, get the scope ad use it -- I hope it will be useful for your projects.

Well put!

[Fungus]

Pay the 16 Quid, get the 'scope. You got off lightly there, customs could have charged you a lot more.

Now send the seller £250 via paypal.

It won't make up for the mess you've created but it will help.

I couldn't give a stuff about the current £16 ransom

What "ransom"? It's a standard import TAX, required by law.

Pay it, get your scope, relax and enjoy it. It'll probably be fine.

What don't you grasp about the simple premise that I didn't want it, I changed for my mind

And what you're not grasping is that you never had that option. That's not the way things work.

Two things happen when you click "buy" on eBay:
a) You entered into a legal contract (I believe eBay pops up a window that explains this to you and gives you the chance to cancel).
b) The seller is stuck with non-refundable eBay/Paypal fees (at what point did you offer to pay those for him?)

Sorry, I'm with the seller. With all the eBay fees, chargebacks, etc., he's probably already lost money on this.

If he's really unlucky eBay will raise his fees on ALL ITEMS HE SELLS IN THE FUTURE. eBay has a sliding scale of fees, his sellers fees can go up forever because of stuff like this.

[Mikey2016]

You know it's funny because I've explained all of this to my bank at great length earlier today and they didn't seem to share the same opinion regarding these "binding contracts", sales laws, consumer rights etc. Ironically it was Paypal that advised me to intiate the charge back and the bank didn't disagree with the facts sorry, I mean excuses presented to them. Still, time will tell, eh?

Maybe I should just print the phone number to my Visa provider and you can all inform them of these binding laws? It seems the Visa people obviously aren't well versed in goods and sales etc. 

[ebastler]

Good luck. I'm out of here.

[Fungus]

Maybe I should just print the phone number to my Visa provider and you can all inform them of these binding laws? It seems the Visa people obviously aren't well versed in goods and sales etc. 

Be sure to let us know how you straightened this out without losing your honor.