New bench scope - Fnirsi 1014D, 7", 1GSa/s

[pcprogrammer]

With the probe set to x1 the bandwidth drops to about 6MHz. It even says so in the manual. The one thing they did not lie about 

[naiclub]

With the probe set to x1 the bandwidth drops to about 6MHz. It even says so in the manual. The one thing they did not lie about 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fnirsi-1014d-function-gen-square-wave/msg5301730/#msg5301730
I want you to read this thread. Can I improve the generator like the owner of this thread?

[bunaziua]

pcprogrammer from europe reverse engineering electronics from china, the circle is now complete 

[bunaziua]

I got the scope recently, needed something portable to find why my car did not want to run.

In my use case I found 2 areas lacking:

1)If you use a wide time band (ex. 100ms per division) it will miss a lot of data. Theoretically it could capture the data (with a supposed 1GSa/s) , but seems like the limitation is in the sample memory (supposedly 240 Kbit). When the trigger hits, the oscilloscope captures 30 time divisions. With one sample supposedly 8 bits, you get 30K samples over 30 divisions, so 1K samples per division. But I really doubt it's 1K samples per division, and I am a beginner with oscilloscopes so not sure if I have correct assumptions. So if you don't know what the frequency of the signal will be, you might miss some important details if you use too wide of a time division.

2) The trigger behavior seems odd. I used a Rigol DS5102CA before, and the trigger was intuitive. With the FNIRSI it seems odd and I didn't use it enough to say what is wrong, but it feels like it's not a good implementation.

What I chose to buy it:
In my area you can't find a good oscilloscope for a decent price. I needed a portable scope, and with all the drawbacks this one is the best option.

If I would be in the North America I would get the Rigol DHO802 for 330$ and not waste my money on the FNIRSI. But I am in eastern europe and the DHO802 is 415 euro, and I have to also add 20% customs VAT (and potentially shipping), so that makes it 500+ euro. So the 130 euro FNIRSI it is.

It's not something you can confidently use if you need it for serious/responsible work (at least that is my opinion), but for a lot of use cases it gets the job done.

[Atlan]

Why didn't you buy the 1013D, it's actually a portable version of the 1014D.

[Harrow]

Hi all, I just joined the FRISNI 1014D club today. Found one for under $200 AUD on eBay, so it will tide me over until the SDS814X makes it to our shores.

I can understand why so many people love to hate it, but I'm already quite fond of it. I understand its limitations, which is why I plan on getting something better, but for what it is, I think it's pretty good. I find the controls and layout quite intuitive, and while it won't be up to scratch for detailed design, it's certainly handy for basic diagnostics and hobby tinkering. I like the idea of being able to take it anywhere and run it off a power pack. I think the trigger level encoder is already playing up a little after two days, lol, but I expected as much at this price level. It will be like owning a Triumph. ;-)

[Atlan]

Hantek is close to this price level, and it can already be called an oscilloscope.

[csuhi17]

I got the scope recently, needed something portable to find why my car did not want to run.

In my use case I found 2 areas lacking:

1)If you use a wide time band (ex. 100ms per division) it will miss a lot of data. Theoretically it could capture the data (with a supposed 1GSa/s) , but seems like the limitation is in the sample memory (supposedly 240 Kbit). When the trigger hits, the oscilloscope captures 30 time divisions. With one sample supposedly 8 bits, you get 30K samples over 30 divisions, so 1K samples per division. But I really doubt it's 1K samples per division, and I am a beginner with oscilloscopes so not sure if I have correct assumptions. So if you don't know what the frequency of the signal will be, you might miss some important details if you use too wide of a time division.

2) The trigger behavior seems odd. I used a Rigol DS5102CA before, and the trigger was intuitive. With the FNIRSI it seems odd and I didn't use it enough to say what is wrong, but it feels like it's not a good implementation.

What I chose to buy it:
In my area you can't find a good oscilloscope for a decent price. I needed a portable scope, and with all the drawbacks this one is the best option.

If I would be in the North America I would get the Rigol DHO802 for 330$ and not waste my money on the FNIRSI. But I am in eastern europe and the DHO802 is 415 euro, and I have to also add 20% customs VAT (and potentially shipping), so that makes it 500+ euro. So the 130 euro FNIRSI it is.

It's not something you can confidently use if you need it for serious/responsible work (at least that is my opinion), but for a lot of use cases it gets the job done.

Are you sure about that? that 1Gs/s is the real sampling?!
Based on tests, the oscilloscope corresponds to a maximum of 30 Mhz.

I tried what you wrote with the 1013D with its factory firmware.
I gave it a 51Khz square signal, with a 100ms time base, then stopped it, then tried to zoom in on it, but it wouldn't let me.
When I set the trigger to Single, the time base was automatically set to 10mS.

I don't know what other people's experience with this device is, but I don't think it will be suitable for what you want.

I quickly tested it with my Micsig.
I can't upload a picture now because I have to go to work, maybe tomorrow if you're interested.
I gave a 51Khz square signal to both.

My Micsig memory is limited to 28k.
The time base is 10ms, because only then does Fnirsi allow me to zoom in on the stopped wave.

The difference between the two waves is heaven and earth.
On my Micsig, the whole wave is continuous, and I have to zoom in even more to see the waveform.
Fnirsin is worthless in comparison.

So does Fnirsi use much less memory?

Maybe you would be better off with a Hantek 1112. Although there are many complaints about that.

[pcprogrammer]

Both the 1013D and 1014D only use a small amount of the available memory in the FPGA to store the samples. In the software it even uses less depending on the time base setting. Only on the shortest times per division does it use both ADC's per channel with the related storage. For the rest of the settings it uses only half the storage space and in the roll mode it only stores a single display.

We are talking max 1500 or 3000 samples per channel.

The 1014D FPGA configuration is for the most part the same as for the 1013D. I almost fully reverse engineered the one for the 1013D and looked at the one for the 1014D to find matching parts.

The basic conclusion is that the design is crap and only ok for simple hobby use. The original firmware polishes the signal to make it look good, but it is utter crap.

The new firmware for the 1013D improves things quite a bit especially now that Atlan took over to tweak things and implement the parts I skipped. Unfortunately for some it can't be used on the 1014D. Efforts on porting it seem to have stopped.

[bunaziua]

Why didn't you buy the 1013D, it's actually a portable version of the 1014D.

I got what was available locally since I didn't want to wait for shipping from china. And I like the knobs more than touch screen, and the fact that you can use it with a power bank instead of a integrated battery that might go bad after some years.

Are you sure about that? that 1Gs/s is the real sampling?!
Based on tests, the oscilloscope corresponds to a maximum of 30 Mhz.

I know that the specs are exaggerated, like usual chinese cheap stuff

I tried what you wrote with the 1013D with its factory firmware.
I gave it a 51Khz square signal, with a 100ms time base, then stopped it, then tried to zoom in on it, but it wouldn't let me.
When I set the trigger to Single, the time base was automatically set to 10mS.

This might be one of the reasons the trigger seemed so bad, will test it later and post the findings.

I quickly tested it with my Micsig.
I can't upload a picture now because I have to go to work, maybe tomorrow if you're interested.
I gave a 51Khz square signal to both.

My Micsig memory is limited to 28k.
The time base is 10ms, because only then does Fnirsi allow me to zoom in on the stopped wave.

The difference between the two waves is heaven and earth.
On my Micsig, the whole wave is continuous, and I have to zoom in even more to see the waveform.
Fnirsin is worthless in comparison.

Haha, I believe you, FNIRSI seems to capture so little data

Maybe you would be better off with a Hantek 1112. Although there are many complaints about that.

The specs look better than the FNIRSI regarding sample memory will look into the Hantek 1112, if it is indeed good.

Both the 1013D and 1014D only use a small amount of the available memory in the FPGA to store the samples. In the software it even uses less depending on the time base setting. Only on the shortest times per division does it use both ADC's per channel with the related storage. For the rest of the settings it uses only half the storage space and in the roll mode it only stores a single display.

We are talking max 1500 or 3000 samples per channel.

The 1014D FPGA configuration is for the most part the same as for the 1013D. I almost fully reverse engineered the one for the 1013D and looked at the one for the 1014D to find matching parts.

The basic conclusion is that the design is crap and only ok for simple hobby use. The original firmware polishes the signal to make it look good, but it is utter crap.

The new firmware for the 1013D improves things quite a bit especially now that Atlan took over to tweak things and implement the parts I skipped. Unfortunately for some it can't be used on the 1014D. Efforts on porting it seem to have stopped.

Thank you for pointing it out. One screen is 14 divisions, so in the worst case it's 1500 samples for 14 divisions = ~100 samples per division (but it feels even lower than that hehe).

[Atlan]

Setting up an oscilloscope that has a touch screen is a joy (not completely because one encoder would be needed), but doing it on an oscilloscope that has buttons and 7 encoders is a punishment.  P.S. CHANGING THE BATTERY is not a problem.

In addition, 1013D allows you to switch between original and alternative software.

[Harrow]

I got what was available locally since I didn't want to wait for shipping from china. And I like the knobs more than touch screen, and the fact that you can use it with a power bank instead of an integrated battery that might go bad after some years.

I also prefer knobs instead of touch screens, and external battery power.

[Postal2]

I quickly tested it with my Micsig.

Micsig is good, I have it. I made it's screen dirty with hands and hole in screen with iron before I buy 1014D. Now Micsig in safe place, but only one time I played with it because HF trace of printboard searching was needed and high sensitivity was needed for this. All other works I proceed with 1014D perfectly (phase delay between two signals of 24MHz etc.).
By the way, Micsig complected with poor power adapter, need change. HF pulses from adapter cannot be filtered without change it.

[thomasx]

So I was offered a second hand Fnirsi 1014D at what seemed to be a reasonable price.

But having browsed a few posts in this thread, the recommendation seems to be: STAY AWAY FROM FNIRSI.

[Harrow]

What do you want to use it for? If you can get one for under $100 and you just want to do a little tinkering with audio frequencies, but otherwise wouldn't be buying a scope, then it might be all you need. But if you are even just a half-serious hobbyist, it really is kind of a toy. Having said that, it works and it's very easy to use. I'm quite fond of its simplicity and I've already had a lot of fun with it. I lend mine to my friend's son without needing to worry about it too much, but after just a few weeks, I'm now ordering a 'real' scope.

[thomasx]

My impression is that any entry level Rigol or Siglent is way better than this, at more or less the same cost, and way better value for money.

[csuhi17]

Even a Hantek is better than this...

[Aldo22]

Even a Hantek is better than this...

I had also looked at this Fnirsi 1014D and found the 50mV/div disturbing and therefore did not pursue it any further.
With the Hantek DSO2C10 I can still measure frequencies at e.g. 230µV RMS (attachment). If I see things correctly, the Fnirsi can't even dream of that.
The Hantek certainly does not reach the quality of Rigol or Siglent, but they are more expensive.
For the same price as this Fnirsi (I bought the Hantek for $130) it is much more powerful, I think.

[csuhi17]

I had also looked at this Fnirsi 1014D and found the 50mV/div disturbing and therefore did not pursue it any further.
With the Hantek DSO2C10 I can still measure frequencies at e.g. 230µV RMS (attachment). If I see things correctly, the Fnirsi can't even dream of that.
The Hantek certainly does not reach the quality of Rigol or Siglent, but they are more expensive.
For the same price as this Fnirsi (I bought the Hantek for $130) it is much more powerful, I think.

As far as I know, the 10x position of the probe is 50mV.
5mV in 1x position.
Yes, that's why I recommended Hantek to several people, but it turned out afterwards that it has a lot of bugs, I don't have such a scope and I didn't really look into it, so I don't know exactly what they're complaining about.

[Aldo22]

As far as I know, the 10x position of the probe is 50mV.
5mV in 1x position.

I don't think so.
It is the official specification. Why would they write 50mV when it's 5mV?
That would be a marketing disaster.

Yes, that's why I recommended Hantek to several people, but it turned out afterwards that it has a lot of bugs, I don't have such a scope and I didn't really look into it, so I don't know exactly what they're complaining about.

I have a Hantek and it's good enough for me so far.
After the last FW update a month ago, I haven't had a single crash.

The trick with the Hantek is to be careful not to pay too much for it. Unfortunately the prices vary a lot.
For example, Hantek France sells them for €347 VAT included.
You shouldn't pay that much! That is ridiculous. 
I wouldn't pay much more than $150 for a DSO2C10 and I would only recommend the DSO2C10, because the more expensive versions are all technically the same afaik.

But for the comparable price, it's imo generally a better tool than the Fnirsi 1014D.

[tunk]

IIRC and if it's like the 1013D, then the 50mV/div is in software
only, in hardware it's 100mV/div (or 1V/div with a 10x probe).

[pcprogrammer]

IIRC and if it's like the 1013D, then the 50mV/div is in software
only, in hardware it's 100mV/div (or 1V/div with a 10x probe).

That is correct.

A small downside of the Hantek is that it comes with only one probe. 

As many on this forum already stated, it is better to save up our money and buy a Siglent or Rigol scope. Much better scopes for not that much more money.

I have a line up of these cheap scopes and hardly use them. Sometimes the Hantek because it starts quicker than the Rigol, but only for very simple checks on easy to scope signals.

Had fun with the FNIRSI's doing the reverse engineering, so feel I got my moneys worth, but that is it. 

[Aldo22]

As many on this forum already stated, it is better to save up our money and buy a Siglent or Rigol scope. Much better scopes for not that much more money.

But you can't compare these.
Maybe it depends on where you live, but for me a Rigol DHO802 from Batronix would cost me CHF 430 delivered (2Ch, 70Mhz).
I paid CHF 126.70 for the Hantek (2Ch, 100Mhz).
That's not just a little less, it's a completely different price range and decision.
And not everyone always needs the latest, greatest features etc.
The Hantek is enough for me at the moment. Maybe in 5 years I'll buy a Rigol or Siglent. Let's see what's all the rage then.

[pcprogrammer]

 

It seems I can't resist. Looking into making open source firmware for this one.

After working on it for a week or so I can understand why @donwulff gave up on his quest. It involves a lot of work to write up the user interface and connect it to the code I wrote for the 1013D.

For another project I wanted a simple scope user interface and thought "ah well the 1014D is simple enough and will do" so I wrote up some code running on Linux to draw the front panel of the scope and with the information donwulff gathered I hooked the buttons and knobs onto the right commands and coupled the gui with the emulator I wrote for the 1013D development. Nopped the SD card code in the 1014D firmware binary and it is now running on my computer.



This allows me to take screen captures and check it with what I'm generating with my own code that I'm writing for it. Also gives me the ability to trace down into the code and set breakpoints to do further investigation if needed.



It is already taking shape, but far from finished. As per usual there is no consistency in the original firmware on how things are done, so it still requires searching through the code with Ghidra to find the different bitmaps and fonts used to make up the display.

The new emulator is in the hacking repository.

Can't say how long it will take to get it fully up and running, but I will make a new thread on here to keep you all informed on the progress.

[pcprogrammer]

I'm looking for testers of the new firmware I'm working on.

Checkout the other thread here.