Author Topic: Magnova oscilloscope  (Read 129654 times)

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Online nctnico

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #150 on: April 18, 2024, 05:56:14 pm »
My point wasn't to bash R&S. I know that they are considered as among the best in RF. But I also know that I've definitely seen quite some TME with a R&S label on it that was produced by a japanese company. Whatever, this thread is about a scope, so that, R&S scopes, is what I focused on. And in that field I would, although formerly a fan of R&S, absolutely not buy one of their scopes after the RTM clusterf_ck.

You may get that idea from the Afug testing but A) there is a lot to question about what Afug found and some of their tests show lack of understanding how a DSO actually works. Take their triggering video for example which completely misses the mark. B) A lot of testing was done with very early firmware which should not have been released if you'd ask me. All in all the RTM3004 videos made by Afug do not represent the current state of this oscilloscope.

And where it comes to the glossy screen: it really isn't a problem. Lots of people think it is a problem to use an oscilloscope with a glossy screen but I have two DSOs ( including an RTM3004) with a glossy screen and it just isn't a problem. The reason is that our eyes focus on what is on screen which automatically undoes anything that may reflect. In the past I've worked with displays which project two images at the same time but at a different perceived depth in order to save space in an instrument cluster. By focussing your eyes differently you can select between the two images. Pretty nifty stuff; it is an interesting optical effect.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2024, 06:01:52 pm by nctnico »
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Online ebastler

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #151 on: April 18, 2024, 06:01:25 pm »
I simply and frankly stated my position. Which, in fact is a service to them. I'll say it in the words of a restaurant owner with whom I later became friends: "(constructively) criticizing us is very important for us. There is nothing worse for us than what many unsatisfied customer do; they smile politely, leave, and never return. With criticism we at least learn what customers don't like and can change, adapt, improve".

But in the present case, you are explaining to the owner of an Italian restaurant why you prefer Vietnamese, right? Or lecturing potential patrons who are browsing the Italian place's menu on why you consider Italien cuisine to be rather pointless and why Vietnamese cooking is so much better.  ::)
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #152 on: April 18, 2024, 06:07:49 pm »
And where it comes to the glossy screen

I never understand this. If somebody doesn't like a glossy screen, they can get a matte screen protector to cover it with. 🤷
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Offline pdenisowski

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #153 on: April 18, 2024, 06:15:29 pm »
But I also know that I've definitely seen quite some TME with a R&S label on it that was produced by a japanese company.

I've been with the company for > 16 years and I have never heard of us ever relabeling anything from a Japanese company.  Could you provide a product or company name?

During my time with the company, I don't recall us ever relabeling T&M products from another company*.  We have acquired some companies (most notably, Hameg), but I'm not aware of a single case where we took an outside company's product and just stuck our label on (and I work on the product management team and cover all of our T&M products).  Again, might have been before my time, so examples would be helpful.

And in that field I would, although formerly a fan of R&S, absolutely not buy one of their scopes after the RTM clusterf_ck.

Could you be more specific?  There was some mention of Afug testing: I'm not familiar with those results, so a link would be helpful (u. Deutsch ist ja auch völlig okay :))

Also, as an add on, I consider a company building scopes with a glossy screen as insane and evidently not guided by engineering and rationality. It seems though that their higher end scopes don't have glossy screens. Maybe they just assumed that those who buy their lower end scopes would be attracted by something glossy; if so they'd certainly not be alone in that.

Believe it or not, some people actually liked the screen. But in all honesty, I'm 99% sure we didn't choose those screens because lower end scope users are "attracted by something glossy" :)


*I should probably say that I'm talking about instruments, not about accessories like probes, fixtures, etc., some of which are sourced from other companies and sold with the R&S name on them.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2024, 06:28:04 pm by pdenisowski »
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #154 on: April 18, 2024, 06:20:58 pm »
Yes, probably R&S manufactured some kind of TME early on, but I've seen more than a few cases where they simply sold equipment made by others, e.g. from japanese companies. IIRC I've even seen simply relabeled equipment.

Are you confusing R&S with RS?

RS certainly does relabel equipment (and components)
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Online nctnico

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #155 on: April 18, 2024, 06:28:38 pm »
But I also know that I've definitely seen quite some TME with a R&S label on it that was produced by a japanese company.

I've been with the company for > 16 years and I have never heard of us ever relabeling anything from a Japanese company.  Could you provide a product or company name?
That might be Advantest. I don't know whether R&S sold equipment from Advantest branded as R&S but IIRC there has been some form of a collaboration between R&S and Advantest.

There has been some debate about this collaboration on this forum as well: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/realationship-between-rs-and-advantest/
« Last Edit: April 18, 2024, 06:30:37 pm by nctnico »
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Offline pdenisowski

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #156 on: April 18, 2024, 06:35:50 pm »
That might be Advantest. I don't know whether R&S sold equipment from Advantest branded as R&S but IIRC there has been some form of a collaboration between R&S and Advantest.

Maybe that was it - it seems there was a reseller agreement many years ago, but I'm pretty sure no rebranding took place.

We do now have our own subsidiary in Japan (R&S Japan).  In fact, they just posted a translation of my video on oscilloscope tips and tricks earlier today :)

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Offline egonotto

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #157 on: April 18, 2024, 06:37:46 pm »
....

Could you be more specific?  There was some mention of Afug testing: I'm not familiar with those results, so a link would be helpful (u. Deutsch ist ja auch völlig okay :))
....


Hello,

a few years ago there were some videos about the RTM3004 from the Afug-Info channel on YouTube. There was a discussion on https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/473278?page=single
A few strange characters took part in this discussion. Later there was something similar here on the EEVblog.

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #158 on: April 18, 2024, 06:39:29 pm »
Could you be more specific?  There was some mention of Afug testing: I'm not familiar with those results, so a link would be helpful (u. Deutsch ist ja auch völlig okay :))

a few years ago there were some videos about the RTM3004 from the Afug-Info channel on YouTube.

Was it this test here? http://www.afug-info.de/Testberichte/RS-RTM3004/
 
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Offline egonotto

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #159 on: April 18, 2024, 06:45:58 pm »

Was it this test here? http://www.afug-info.de/Testberichte/RS-RTM3004/

Hello,

yes.
The discussion in the microcontroller forum is interesting.

Best regards
egonotto
 
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Offline moerm

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #160 on: April 18, 2024, 07:03:23 pm »
My point wasn't to bash

So far, you've done little else than to bash the scope this thread is about (with no experience of it) and you bashed most of the people that responded to you.

Nope, I did neither. For instance, I also mentioned - favourably - their fast LA option and its low price.
And I bashed nobody here. Trust me, it would be perfectly clear if bashing was my intention.

I am a fan of Batronix, I've seen nothing but a nice supportive company, who btw does have experience with development of TE, including their fantastic scope demo board.

Now I'm even more glad that I did not bash them. And I'd in fact have no reason to do do because I have no experience with them so far. All I knew about them is that they produce programmers, and good ones it seems.

You may not be aware of this, but it's poor etiquette to do what you did.

Should I from now on be worried about being nicely dressed before logging in here?

For example, I personally and absolutely hate Rigol. This is based on my experience with my first scope having been a popular (and terrible IMO) Rigol scope. Despite my hate for that brand and the weird choices they make, I don't go posting in every Rigol thread why I won't be purchasing that specific Rigol scope. It's pointless, and many people enjoy those products. To each their own.

Neither would I out of the blue bash a Rigol scope - although I'd wholeheartedly sign "I absolutely detest Rigol". Nor would I enter a Rigol thread to bash them. But then the problem rather is the contrary: Rigol fans mercilessly recommending Rigol stuff, prettey much no matter what the question was.

My point wasn't to bash R&S. I know that they are considered as among the best in RF. But I also know that I've definitely seen quite some TME with a R&S label on it that was produced by a japanese company. Whatever, this thread is about a scope, so that, R&S scopes, is what I focused on. And in that field I would, although formerly a fan of R&S, absolutely not buy one of their scopes after the RTM clusterf_ck.

very early firmware which should not have been released if you'd ask me.
I took the liberty to cut the quote down to the relevant part. "which should not have been released" - but it was.

And where it comes to the glossy screen: it really isn't a problem. Lots of people think it is a problem to use an oscilloscope with a glossy screen but I have two DSOs ( including an RTM3004) with a glossy screen and it just isn't a problem. The reason is that our eyes focus on what is on screen which automatically undoes anything that may reflect. In the past I've worked with displays which project two images at the same time but at a different perceived depth in order to save space in an instrument cluster. By focussing your eyes differently you can select between the two images. Pretty nifty stuff; it is an interesting optical effect.

Doesn't change my opinion. At all. But well, that's my opinion, and I don't have the slightest problem with you seeing it differently. May you enjoy your RTM ;)

I simply and frankly stated my position. Which, in fact is a service to them. I'll say it in the words of a restaurant owner with whom I later became friends: "(constructively) criticizing us is very important for us. There is nothing worse for us than what many unsatisfied customer do; they smile politely, leave, and never return. With criticism we at least learn what customers don't like and can change, adapt, improve".

But in the present case, you are explaining to the owner of an Italian restaurant why you prefer Vietnamese, right? Or lecturing potential patrons who are browsing the Italian place's menu on why you consider Italien cuisine to be rather pointless and why Vietnamese cooking is so much better.  ::)

Simply NO. I'm lecturing nobody. I simply say what I think.

And where it comes to the glossy screen

I never understand this. If somebody doesn't like a glossy screen, they can get a matte screen protector to cover it with. 🤷

If - and only if - a glossy screen was the only contra of "my perfect scope" I'd likely choose that option. 'IF'.

But I also know that I've definitely seen quite some TME with a R&S label on it that was produced by a japanese company.

I've been with the company for > 16 years and I have never heard of us ever relabeling anything from a Japanese company.  Could you provide a product or company name?

Sorry, no. That was quite some time ago and I don't remember the model anymore. I seem remember though that it was a spectrum Analyzer and I do remember that I scratched my head when pretty much at the same time I saw exactly the same instrument from, I think, it was Advantest. I hope this helps.

And in that field I would, although formerly a fan of R&S, absolutely not buy one of their scopes after the RTM clusterf_ck.

Could you be more specific?  There was some mention of Afug testing: I'm not familiar with those results, so a link would be helpful (u. Deutsch ist ja auch völlig okay :))

Just search for "afug rtm" on youtube and you'll find a whole series of videos.
As for nitpicking remarks wrt that review, I can't vouch for that ladies detailed competence but I like her videos and have always found her to be knowledegable and fair. And I have absolutely no reason to believe that she doesn't know how DSOs work.

*I should probably say that I'm talking about instruments, not about accessories like probes, fixtures, etc., some of which are sourced from other companies and sold with the R&S name on them.

No problem, I'm absolutely not out to hunt R&S down or bash them. It was a full instrument, no some accessory.
Maybe R&S had a deal with that japanese company to e.g. exclusively distribute their products in some region and possibly even to sell those instruments under the R&S brand.

Yes, probably R&S manufactured some kind of TME early on, but I've seen more than a few cases where they simply sold equipment made by others, e.g. from japanese companies. IIRC I've even seen simply relabeled equipment.

Are you confusing R&S with RS?

RS certainly does relabel equipment (and components)
.

Nope. As a former R&S fan (and not exactly newbie in electronics) I'd never confuse RS and R&S.

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Offline pdenisowski

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #161 on: April 18, 2024, 07:08:44 pm »
Was it this test here? http://www.afug-info.de/Testberichte/RS-RTM3004/

Those must be it.  It'll take me some time (even at 2X) to watch all 15 videos :)

Ironically, the first video compares the RTM to an analog Hameg HM407-2 ... I just happen to have exactly that same oscilloscope here in my office :)

Even more ironically:  although their first video is very critical of the RTM's roll mode implementation, it didn't stop Afug from using the RTM (in roll mode!!!) when explaining PWM in a different video :)



« Last Edit: April 18, 2024, 07:12:38 pm by pdenisowski »
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Offline moerm

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #162 on: April 18, 2024, 07:10:44 pm »

Was it this test here? http://www.afug-info.de/Testberichte/RS-RTM3004/

Hello,

yes.
The discussion in the microcontroller forum is interesting.

Best regards
egonotto


Could you, although you seem to not at all like me, please provide a link to that discussion? After all, you described it as interesting.
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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #163 on: April 18, 2024, 07:14:19 pm »
Could you, although you seem to not at all like me, please provide a link to that discussion? After all, you described it as interesting.

https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/473278

A really interesting discussion (in German), although it also contains a lot of very strongly held opinions in addition to quite a bit of factually incorrect information
« Last Edit: April 18, 2024, 07:16:51 pm by pdenisowski »
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Offline moerm

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #164 on: April 18, 2024, 07:16:19 pm »
Even more ironically:  although their first video is very critical of the RTM's roll mode implementation, it didn't stop Afug from using the RTM (in roll mode!!!) when explaining PWM in a different video :)

Which proves what?

P.S. I seem to remember that said instrument from a japanese company was quite old.
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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #165 on: April 18, 2024, 07:22:49 pm »
Even more ironically:  although their first video is very critical of the RTM's roll mode implementation, it didn't stop Afug from using the RTM (in roll mode!!!) when explaining PWM in a different video :)

Which proves what?

Either (a) the "deficiencies" of the RTM roll mode implementation are not that serious or (b) Afug only has a single oscilloscope to make videos with.  :)

P.S. I seem to remember that said instrument from a japanese company was quite old.

I think this thread has already ventured much too far from the Magnova oscilloscope (which I am also very interested in).  Perhaps it would be best to start a new thread if you'd like to discuss this topic further?
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Offline moerm

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #166 on: April 18, 2024, 07:34:45 pm »
Even more ironically:  although their first video is very critical of the RTM's roll mode implementation, it didn't stop Afug from using the RTM (in roll mode!!!) when explaining PWM in a different video :)

Which proves what?

Either (a) the "deficiencies" of the RTM roll mode implementation are not that serious or (b) Afug only has a single oscilloscope to make videos with.  :)
... or c) she for some reason chose the RTM from among different scopes. But: even if she has only one scope, so what?

P.S. I seem to remember that said instrument from a japanese company was quite old.

I think this thread has already ventured much too far from the Magnova oscilloscope (which I am also very interested in).  Perhaps it would be best to start a new thread if you'd like to discuss this topic further?
[/quote]

My aim wasn't to further discuss that point but to help you. I remembered that that instrument seems to have been an old one with a CRT and told you to help you. Simple as that.
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Offline mubes

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #167 on: April 19, 2024, 10:24:19 am »
My word, in the absence of much useful signal yet the AGC certainly has amplified a lot of noise in here.

Batronix should be judged by their actions, not whatever prejudices any of us choose to hold. Let's wait and see what they tip up with.  Personally I'm excited to see a new entrant into the market trying to stir things up...with the background and experience across a whole range of existing products to know what works and what doesn't. Given where they're positioning this there's a decent chance they might actually listen to people and add in features that the big players simply don't have....I already messaged them privately about one such feature I'd love to see - I'd even help them implement it!

It could be crock, it could be fantastic. Based on my interactions with the company in the past I've hopeful it's the latter, but none of us can know until the dammed thing turns up.



 
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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #168 on: April 19, 2024, 07:10:35 pm »
...Batronix should be judged by their actions ...
...Given where they're positioning this there's a decent chance they might actually listen to people and add in features that the big players simply don't have....

These are exactly my thoughts regarding Batronix, based on my contacts with Batronix. They are accessible and do listen.

Rigol releases a new scope with non working Video triggers and other stupid errors, some customers complain - reaction zero...
Timeframe for an update - oscillogod knows...  eternety?

 

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #169 on: April 19, 2024, 09:18:47 pm »
It could be crock, it could be fantastic. Based on my interactions with the company in the past I've hopeful it's the latter, but none of us can know until the dammed thing turns up.

I also think that we should wait and see, as there is hardly any information on this so far.
You can also get a 350Mhz 12 bit scope for 3400€ (SDS2354X HD), I can't imagine that you would launch your own scope at twice the price without being sure that it can compete with it.
And that a larger screen alone is not enough.
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #170 on: April 19, 2024, 10:00:06 pm »
You can also get a 350Mhz 12 bit scope for 3400€ (SDS2354X HD)

Are the Euro prices higher now? In the US, the SDS3034X HD for $3,690.00 and the SDS2354X HD is $2,999.00.
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Online Martin72

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #171 on: April 19, 2024, 10:17:15 pm »
"Comparison is the end of happiness and the beginning of dissatisfaction."(Kierkegaard)
Siglent SDS800X HD Deep Review
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #172 on: April 19, 2024, 10:24:47 pm »
"Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before." - Steven Wright
 
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Offline moerm

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #173 on: April 20, 2024, 08:32:42 am »
You can also get a 350Mhz 12 bit scope for 3400€ (SDS2354X HD), I can't imagine that you would launch your own scope at twice the price without being sure that it can compete with it.
And that a larger screen alone is not enough.

(emphasis mine)

I think that pretty much nails it.

Whatever. A new player in the scope market certainly is welcome news to many (incl. myself).

I'm glad to see this thread active again and I probably (and unfortunately) did derail it somewhat but I had no ill intentions whatsoever. In fact, while feeling innocent (in terms of intentions) I recognize that my merely telling what I think and after that simply responding to others seems to have had a negative effect. And for that I sincerely apologize. I certainly wish no harm whatsoever to Batronix.

Even more ironically:  although their first video is very critical of the RTM's roll mode implementation, it didn't stop Afug from using the RTM (in roll mode!!!) when explaining PWM in a different video :)

Talking about Afug I went to youtube and watched a relatively recent video about a Benning current clamp.
And lo and behold! - what did I see there? A Micsig scope!

As you seem to be keen to interpret her/them using this or that scope for this or that purpose, let's look at what that newer video tells us. Maybe, shock and awe, it means that the RTM was, matching the findings of their review/test video series, found to be unsatisfactory and replaced by a Micsig scope?

In other words: I get it, you work at and for R&S, and not surprisingly tend to defend them. That's OK and normal.

BUT: Never ever smear or belittle a benevolent reviewer (not payed, serving "the community")!
Maybe politely hint at a (e.g. procedural) error such a reviewer might make, that's OK, nobody expects a company to hold still when someone erroneously "puts them in a bad light". But do not do what you did - such "irony" is bound to turn against you in the long run.

Friendly regards
« Last Edit: April 20, 2024, 08:36:20 am by moerm »
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Offline egonotto

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Re: Magnova oscilloscope
« Reply #174 on: April 20, 2024, 01:31:33 pm »
Hello,

there is still the Micsig MHO3-3504 for 3568.81 € with 350 MHz. With 14 " 1920x1200 screen and 2 x 3 Gpts/s and 2 x 360 Mpts memory and variable filters.


Best regards
egonotto
 
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