Looking to purchase scope, torn between models

[adauphin]

I think I'm finally going to pull the trigger on a good sub-$1K scope, this will be my max budget, that being said, I've been very interested in the $350-400 scopes with the contemplation of going to around $650-700. The $1K max is just that, not where I want to be but it depends on what the offerings are.

I'm pretty much a hobbyist but I have always been someone who loves to diagnose problems and learn their inner workings. Whether it's automotive, electronics, anything that can be fixed....I'm all in, I just wished I had taken classes early on but I learn quick and have the desire to learn more as I go. Best part, when I get out the soldering gun, the 9YO is in full attention so being able to teach him as I go is a great feeling  .

I have a Tek 465B and a Global spec 4001 pulse generator does have it's limitations naturally but it's what I've been messing with.

I don't know if I need more than a 100 MHz scope, or even 4 channels, but I would like to have the capabilities available so that's why I'm asking.

The more I mess with electronics, the more I want to get involved. I have a couple amplifiers I'm trying to repair, I enjoy looking into a circuit and trying to see where I would have any distortion in the signal, whether its speaker crossovers, comparing components, etc. Also going into CATV and USB that's where I'm unsure of which scope will work best within my budget.

The possibilities are endless when you have a good scope and there are many offerings right now that will fulfill my needs. The list goes on, but as far as either designing, troubleshooting, repair, I want a scope that has more than what I need and not just mostly fulfilling my needs. Granted that's a broad statement and goes into more than a 5 digit price tag but I trust you understand what I mean.

So going on price point, I have read a lot about the 1054Z, as well as the 1202X-E. I have also considered the 1074Z and the 2304X.

Should I opt for the 1074 or am I getting into territory with that one where I need to bust the 1K barrier to fully maximize it's potential? I was curious about the cosmetic quality of the Siglent scopes with the screen print on the buttons and the knobs not being as well made (wobble) as the Rigol...is this really an issue?

I also need to factor in a decent signal generator so that can make or break the budget.

I know the Rigol 1054Z has been the one to get based on performance per dollar, but are there other offerings now that I should opt for now or in the near future?

All input and criticism appreciated.

[tautech]

So going on price point, I have read a lot about the 1054Z, as well as the 1202X-E. I have also considered the 1074Z and the 2304X.

Typos ?
4ch X-E is 1104X-E or 1204X-E
See this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/

There might be a solution for your AWG needs as a 25 MHz USB (SAG1021) module is optional for these ^ too.
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-fj.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2

2304X is way outside your intended budget.
http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1488&T=2&tid=1

I was curious about the cosmetic quality of the Siglent scopes with the screen print on the buttons and the knobs not being as well made (wobble) as the Rigol...is this really an issue?

Most encoders on low cost equipment have a little shaft play and AFAIK it doesn't cause any issues.
Button prints I don't have any complaints about.

I also need to factor in a decent signal generator so that can make or break the budget.

As mentioned above or consider SDG1032X (30 MHz 2 ch)
http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=4705&T=2&tid=16

[Fungus]

So going on price point, I have read a lot about the 1054Z, as well as the 1202X-E. I have also considered the 1074Z and the 2304X.

Should I opt for the 1074

No! It's a complete waste of money.

The basic Rigol DS1054Z can easily be unlocked to be a full 100MHz DS1104Z with all options enabled - far better than a 70MHz DS1074Z. This is what makes it the people's favorite - $350 buys you an awful lot of oscilloscope. 

[nctnico]

the knobs not being as well made (wobble)

Even on very expensive scopes the knobs on encoders will wobble.
Did you look at MicSig's TO1000 series? The TO1104 is about half your budget. It has the most screen real-estate (800x600 display) and due to being battery powered it is portable as well. If you want to measure something in your car then having a real portable (=battery powered) scope is a big plus.

[adauphin]

Typos ?
4ch X-E is 1104X-E or 1204X-E

Sorry....yes, I had a few models I was researching and entered the wrong one.

Thank you for the links.

So going on price point, I have read a lot about the 1054Z, as well as the 1202X-E. I have also considered the 1074Z and the 2304X.

Should I opt for the 1074

No! It's a complete waste of money.

The basic Rigol DS1054Z can easily be unlocked to be a full 100MHz DS1104Z with all options enabled - far better than a 70MHz DS1074Z. This is what makes it the people's favorite - $350 buys you an awful lot of oscilloscope. 

That seems to be the consensus and will likely be the route I take.

Given the track record of this scope, and experienced users that have used it...if i were to up the ante a few hundred bucks from the 1054Z, will I end up with a better all-around unit, or will I need to dig much deeper into the wallet?

So basically could I have all that the 1054Z offers with some options that experienced users would like to have, at a slightly higher budget? I understand that can be subjective, but the reason I ask is I don't know this scope well enough to wish I had other useful features.

Great info btw, thanks so far.

[HalFET]

Don't forget to call up your local Keysight/Tek distributor and ask if they have anything that was used for demo's. That's how I got mine.

[nctnico]

Given the track record of this scope, and experienced users that have used it...if i were to up the ante a few hundred bucks from the 1054Z, will I end up with a better all-around unit, or will I need to dig much deeper into the wallet?

In the sub $1000 range you'll end up with a unit which will have limitations (like no protocol decoding, slow user interface, limited functions, firmware bugs) one way or another. Pick two out of three: Good, cheap, many functions

[Electro Detective]

For the uses OP adauphin specifies above, an analogue oscilloscope is a must,

and if going for a new DSO (with bucketloads of WARRANTY and local seller support!) I would go with an established model that members here are familiar with.

I'm no fan of 4 channel DSOs with 'shared controls' btw, but if you ignore that half baked feature on the Rigol and others, it's as good as it gets for the money

Then again, a dedicated fully featured 2 channel DSO for a few dollars more may be the best way to go, with less compromises (freebies, hacks, channels, blah...) 

FWIW, always keep an analogue scope handy...   

[tautech]

Typos ?
4ch X-E is 1104X-E or 1204X-E

Sorry....yes, I had a few models I was researching and entered the wrong one.

Thank you for the links.

Here's another and a very good deal on a SDS2204 from Siglent in Ohio but you'd need to be quicker than quick.
https://store.siglentamerica.com/product-category/clearance/

[Fungus]

I don't know if I need more than a 100 MHz scope, or even 4 channels, but I would like to have the capabilities available so that's why I'm asking.

The more I mess with electronics, the more I want to get involved. I have a couple amplifiers I'm trying to repair, I enjoy looking into a circuit and trying to see where I would have any distortion in the signal, whether its speaker crossovers, comparing components, etc. Also going into CATV and USB that's where I'm unsure of which scope will work best within my budget.

I also need to factor in a decent signal generator so that can make or break the budget.

Given these interests you might want to look at a thing called the "Analog Discovery".

It has a 14-bit ADC so it can measure audio far more accurately than any low end oscilloscope. It also has a built-in signal generator so you can do Bode plots, etc.

It's also designed for educational use and "messing about with electronics".

OTOH: It's not cheap and you can do audio analysis with a PC sound card and a few potentiometers.

Given the track record of this scope, and experienced users that have used it...if i were to up the ante a few hundred bucks from the 1054Z, will I end up with a better all-around unit, or will I need to dig much deeper into the wallet?

The DS1054Z isn't 100% perfect but it's a very well-known "devil" with an awful lot of owners here.

There's a new Siglent for $500 which looks better on paper but it was only released last week and nobody knows if it's full of bugs yet. Siglent don't have a stellar record there. nb. There's a whole bunch of Siglent resellers lurking in these forums who will no doubt appear in the next few posts and tell you how incredible it is, take that with a pinch of salt until it proves itself (at least a Dave review and one firmware update).

There's also the GW-Instek 1054B for about the same price as a DS1054Z. It's limited to 50MHz and not very "digital" (eg. no serial decoders) but it does "analog" things better than the DS1054Z so it could be what you're looking for (based on audio interests).

No low end scope will do USB, etc.

[Fungus]

Have you seen this thread?

Apparently Siglent forgot some important capacitors when they built some 'scopes. If you read the messages towards the end you'll find users being told they don't have a warranty.

Buying any newly released product is a gamble. 

[rstofer]

As mentioned above, the DS1054Z is pretty well known.  It's not perfect but it's darn good.  I bought one to augment my Tek 485 and, no, I'm not going to get rid of the Tek.

Everybody is waiting for the new Siglent SDS1204X-E to be released worldwide.  Then the early adopters will be the beta testers for some number of months.  It took Rigol a couple of years to debug the DS1054Z so I wouldn't expect anything different from Siglent.  There will be problems and it will take time to get them worked out.  The good news is that the vast majority of features will work and those that don't may not be important to any particular user.  The DS1054Z FFT function is less than stellar.  It doesn't matter, to me, because I have no use for the FFT function.

Stop agonizing and drive a stake in the ground.  There will always be something better - some time down the road or at some increase in price.

In the $400 range, the DS1054Z is probably as good as it's going to get.  The new Siglent seems to be priced somewhat higher - when it finally gets released.

Yes, you will need to unlock the DS1054Z to get the decoding, 100 MHz bandwidth and other options.  This is a well understood process.

For a scope, the most important specification is bandwidth - except channels.  There are perfectly good reasons for insisting on 4 channels - decoding SPI is one of them.

[Mr. Scram]

Yes, the price difference makes the choice easier. The DS1054Z is still a very good oscilloscope for a very sharp price. The SDS1204X-E is a better scope, but at a higher price. We also don't quite now what issues it might have. The price difference means that whatever you pick, you made a smart choice. Save money and buy a cheap and good scope, or spend money and buy a better scope. Unless the Siglent turns out to be a total disaster, you can't really go wrong either way.

[marshallh]

Start with a basic cheap scope and then when you have more idea what you need you can upgrade to another one.

In the end it's only a tool and a means to get thru your project's debugging stage. Very few scopes will actually fail that purpose.

[skander36]

Have you seen this thread?

Apparently Siglent forgot some important capacitors when they built some 'scopes. If you read the messages towards the end you'll find users being told they don't have a warranty.

Buying any newly released product is a gamble. 

The truth is that when you buy from abroad you must assume sending the defective scope to dealer which is not very economic .
In my case I contacted Siglent Europe (Hamburg) and they told me that will send me a new motherboard and the warranty remain available for the rest of the time (3 years) . I think this is a correct and honorable attitude toward the clients .

[adauphin]

Sorry if this has been asked 500 times, but is there a cost involved in hacking the Rigol 1054Z?

[rstofer]

Sorry if this has been asked 500 times, but is there a cost involved in hacking the Rigol 1054Z?

No

The process is described around here somewhere.  Here is the web site, the only proper option is DSER so enter your serial number and follow the yellow brick road.  Yes, I know DSER isn't on the list but it is the ONLY proper option.

http://gotroot.ca/rigol/riglol/

ETA

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-unlock/msg958372/#msg958372


You will need to RTFM to figure out how to get the code into the scope.  Or maybe you can find it by searching around here.

[Fungus]

Sorry if this has been asked 500 times, but is there a cost involved in hacking the Rigol 1054Z?

No

The process is described around here somewhere.  Here is the web site, the only proper option is DSER so enter your serial number and follow the yellow brick road.  Yes, I know DSER isn't on the list but it is the ONLY proper option.

Yes, DSER is the one.

You can enter the code via the front panel but it's a pain. The easiest way is with an Ethernet cable and telnet.

Connect it up to PC and telnet to your 'scope on port 5555. Type:

:SYSTem:OPTion:INSTall XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Where XXX is your key

Job done.

You can also remove the options with:

:SYSTem:OPTion:UNINSTall

[tautech]

Sorry if this has been asked 500 times, but is there a cost involved in hacking the Rigol 1054Z?

Yes, two costs.

Time.
Loss of traceable calibration.

[Fungus]

Yes, two costs.

Time.
Loss of traceable calibration.

Getting desperate, tautech? 

[bd139]

Mine didn't come with a traceable calibration so 

It's not like a scope is a particularly accurate device anyway.

[tautech]

Yes, two costs.

Time.
Loss of traceable calibration.

Getting desperate, tautech? 

YOU ARE by denial of facts. 

[Fungus]

Mine didn't come with a traceable calibration so 

Neither did anybody else's.

It's not like a scope is a particularly accurate device anyway.

Only about 5% accuracy. Who'd want to traceably calibrate that?

The bandwidth hack wouldn't affect the calibration anyway, it just disconnects a capacitor from the input. There's no change to either the internal voltage voltage reference or the vertical gain amplifiers.

(and at least Rigol remembers to put all the capacitors in, unlike Siglent, who might send you a couple of extra ones in the post after you bought it. If you're lucky.)

[bd139]

(and at least Rigol remembers to put all the capacitors in, unlike Siglent).

Hahahaha 

It's all Wun Hung Low vs Wan Hung Low at this price point anyway. YMMV etc etc.

[nctnico]

(and at least Rigol remembers to put all the capacitors in, unlike Siglent).

Hahahaha 

It's all Wun Hung Low vs Wan Hung Low at this price point anyway. YMMV etc etc.

Indeed. Rigol doesn't know how to use PLLs and voltage regulators properly.