looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?

[nctnico]

Still waveforms/s is nice for marketing. They all are optimum case peak values which have no meaning in practical situations. A couple of hundreds waveforms/s (which most practically used settings come down to) is enough to get a clear picture of a signal.

[MrWolf]

That is full range, not per vertical division (I should have been more clear about that). A small but significant detail! For example 1V/div gives you 8V full range which shows a 5V signal nicely. On the picoscope you'd have to choose 10V full range which compresses the signal to half the screen size. Also on many Picoscopes the maximum input voltage is +/-5V versus a couple of hundred Volts on a normal scope.

Ok I see, I never had a problem with this because PC screen is rather big and often there is other data on the screen that I stuff into free area.
However there is sort of workaround using zoom (attached) but this results in weird sub-divisions values.

[MrWolf]

Still waveforms/s is nice for marketing. They all are optimum case peak values which have no meaning in practical situations. A couple of hundreds waveforms/s (which most practically used settings come down to) is enough to get a clear picture of a signal.

Well indeed, my oldest PS 2205 soapbox has only 2kwfms/s and I remember having a problem only once when trying to trigger on some rare events with nanosecond range risetimes (some misses now and then).

[jemangedeslolos]

Picoscope seems to have nice products but Im not sure that I can see what I want on the screen easier or more faster without knob to play with.
I also think that the PicoScope are a little too overpriced.
a 4 channel 200 Mhz ( 3000 series ) = 1815€
2025€ with logical analyser

2165€ for the 5000 series and they have no screen, no HMI and no processing power.
I understand that this type of device has advantages.
I'm young ( euhhh 32  years old ) , I handle PCs since I was little.
But for once, I'm not sure that for a lab instrument, this is the best choice.

SDS2204X + Option Bundle is around 1850€ !!
Hard to beat.

[nctnico]

SDS2204X + Option Bundle is around 1850€ !!
Hard to beat.

No it is not hard to beat: The GW Instek GDS-2204E is cheaper and I'd say it is also way better.

[jemangedeslolos]

Yes and no.
I read your review ( very good review as I said ) and it seems to be a very nice scope, really.
I found video on youtube ( and eevblab I think ) where I could see a very responsive UI.

But :

- You mention in your review annoying noise. It is unacceptable for me.
This is one reason why I change my DSO after only one year. I don't know how much I can sell my DS2202A full optionned.

- In France, I can touch the GW Instek around 1300€-1400€  but for that price, there is no 16 channel logical analyser and AWG.
Without those options, the Siglent is at 1564€

The Siglent seems to be the upper range but maybe just on paper....

Not so easy to choose 

[pascal_sweden]

Is the GW-Instek noisy? How noisy?

[nctnico]

The noise from the GDS2204E is easy to fix if it is annoying; the problem is that the case may resonate due to fan fibration. A couple of rubber fan mounts do the trick and no warranty void stickers. But you have to realise the noisiest device in my office is an external hard drive somewhere on the floor so I may not be the best reference when it comes to acceptable noise.

The AWG inside the SDS2000X series is of very limited use (I used to own an SDS2204). Without the dedicated function generator user interface it is tedious to setup. If I where you I'd read the thread about the SDS2000X very carefully because there are still several bugs mentioned and some features look good on paper but may not be implemented in a useful way. If you choose to buy an SDS2000X be sure you can return it and test it thouroughly immediately. To avoid dissapointment assume that what isn't working today is never going to be fixed.

If you really want an MSO then going after a used Agilent/Keysight could be a good option. Keysight has many excellent deals for used scopes in their Ebay store at the moment which can be hacked as well. Be sure to check Ebay prices and make them an offer instead of paying their (slighly high) asking price.

[jemangedeslolos]

The AWG is coming with the option bundle. It's almost free if you buy the 16 channel logical analyser.
I have a dedicated SDG2082X so my needs are covered.

You seem to be a very pessimistic person.
Probably for good reason, Im still a "young player"
But I looked at the SDS2000X and it seems that new firmware exist and fixes things ( but not all ).

I didn't know it was possible to remove the fan without losing the warranty.
It is not possible on both Rigol and Siglent because of the warranty sticker.
I think it is more easy on the Siglent than the Rigol thanks to the Dave's Teardown but I want a warranty.

It is why I don't want second hand scope.

[JPortici]

It is why I don't want second hand scope.

same. but i don't dislike boat anchors because old dso (so single shot) still means connectivity and high bandwidth bandwidth / price
and second hand as guaranteed refurbished is not that bat. it's not for example a refurbished apple from the apple store (for only 300$ less!!!). we are talking serious discounts.

[nctnico]

Warranty is overrated because you depend on the good will of a seller. The most money I ever lost on test equipment was with a brand new scope.

[JPortici]

i tend to buy this stuff with VAT number so i only have one year warranty anyway (from the manufacturer)

[jemangedeslolos]

Brand new scope offering 3 years warranty but...when purshased from an official distributor.
Big names like Tektronix said that the manufacturer warranty is not transferable.
So I don't know how it works with second hand instrument ?

It will be sexy to have a Keysight DSOX3024T for 2000€ on my bench but Iam not lucky enought to find that on ebay 

And personally, I prefer to have a brand new scope.
It may be stupid but psychologically, I would be more peaceful.

Maybe one day, I will buy brand new InfiniiVision 4000 X-Series
I will put in my Ferrari' trunk to put it on my marble bench thanks to the electronic I sell designed with Siglent or GW Instek scope 

[JPortici]

Brand new scope offering 3 years warranty but...when purshased from an official distributor.
Big names like Tektronix said that the manufacturer warranty is not transferable.
So I don't know how it works with second hand instrument ?

what do you mean? what do they mean? this is the EU. if you have the receipt you have the warranty. things may be different with an invoice with a different name on it though but the warranty should still be appliable

[nctnico]

Brand new scope offering 3 years warranty but...when purshased from an official distributor.
Big names like Tektronix said that the manufacturer warranty is not transferable.
So I don't know how it works with second hand instrument ?

AFAIK you can buy extra warranty from Keysight for a second hand instrument (if it is still supported).

[Wuerstchenhund]

Think that desktop scopes get enough publicity on this forum. Here may be some
people that may have more scientific interests that general tinkerer and think I is
rather ok to inform them that there are tools for that also

The standard scopes of the science community have been and still are mostly LeCroys. I've seen a few PicoScopes in a handful of scientific applications where a remote digitizer was needed so the separation of PC/Display and sampler was of advantage, and it appears what they do they do well, but they aren't exactly high performance scopes or offering a lot in terms of waveform analysis.

[MrWolf]

The standard scopes of the science community have been and still are mostly LeCroys.

Not only community does science. There are also lot of barely financed people in the sheds working on a new paradigm shifts.

[David Hess]

The other reason im sending it back is because it wont trigger on short pulses 20nS  that are widely spaced. Im not sure why this is as it works in single and in normal mode but not on auto. My Old tek scope has no issue with this.

That is normal and it will be the same on any non-Tektronix oscilloscope. It has to do with the delay after a trigger in auto mode. On most oscilloscopes this delay is very short (a fraction of a second). However on a Tektronix scope this is roughly close to second so even in auto mode it will appear to trigger on widely spaced pulses. There are advantages and disadvantages to the Tektronix way and to be honest I can't say I like it or hate it.

I need to remember to test for this on prospective DSOs.

I got caught by a similar issue when examining very narrow pulses from a GPS 1PPS signal but was saved because the trigger indicator on my oscilloscope was flashing so I knew *something* was there.  Of course most modern DSOs *lack* a trigger indicator because, um, why?

[jemangedeslolos]

Brand new scope offering 3 years warranty but...when purshased from an official distributor.
Big names like Tektronix said that the manufacturer warranty is not transferable.
So I don't know how it works with second hand instrument ?

what do you mean? what do they mean? this is the EU. if you have the receipt you have the warranty. things may be different with an invoice with a different name on it though but the warranty should still be appliable

I don't know what that really means.
Is that with sufficient evidence of honesty, the warranty is still supported ?
But it is written black on white in their warranty conditions and I don't want to take the risk of paying the Keysight or Tektronix service because the warranty is no longer supported.
Repair costs more than the DSO 
There are many examples on the forum.

But I also prefer to buy brand new scope for work.
It is the only way to know what I am paying for.
You can be lucky...or not with second hand.

And don't forget that one of the reasons why I want to change is to have a quiet scope !
I'm not sure the best way is to buy a 2 or 3 years old FAN who has worked in maybe hard environments.

[JPortici]

Brand new scope offering 3 years warranty but...when purshased from an official distributor.
Big names like Tektronix said that the manufacturer warranty is not transferable.
So I don't know how it works with second hand instrument ?

what do you mean? what do they mean? this is the EU. if you have the receipt you have the warranty. things may be different with an invoice with a different name on it though but the warranty should still be appliable

I don't know what that really means.
Is that with sufficient evidence of honesty, the warranty is still supported ?
But it is written black on white in their warranty conditions and I don't want to take the risk of paying the Keysight or Tektronix service because the warranty is no longer supported.
Repair costs more than the DSO 
There are many examples on the forum.

But I also prefer to buy brand new scope for work.
It is the only way to know what I am paying for.
You can be lucky...or not with second hand.

And don't forget that one of the reasons why I want to change is to have a quiet scope !
I'm not sure the best way is to buy a 2 or 3 years old FAN who has worked in maybe hard environments.

not sure about france but here a contract to be valid can't go against the law. here customer protection laws apply

[Wuerstchenhund]

Brand new scope offering 3 years warranty but...when purshased from an official distributor.
Big names like Tektronix said that the manufacturer warranty is not transferable.
So I don't know how it works with second hand instrument ?

what do you mean? what do they mean? this is the EU. if you have the receipt you have the warranty. things may be different with an invoice with a different name on it though but the warranty should still be appliable

I don't know what that really means.
Is that with sufficient evidence of honesty, the warranty is still supported ?
But it is written black on white in their warranty conditions and I don't want to take the risk of paying the Keysight or Tektronix service because the warranty is no longer supported.

At least with the big brands there is no need to worry, warranty from Keysight, LeCroy, R&S etc is to the device not the buyer, and is honored even if you bought your instrument 5th hand. Plus its generally international warranty so you're covered even if you bought the instrument from abroad.

I'm not sure with Tektronix but I'd be surprised if they are any different (but then why would you want to buy Tek in the first place, considering that they have by far the worst portfolio with stale, lacklustre, slow and overpriced scopes?).

B-brands like Rigol and Siglent can be different, i.e. warranty may be limited to a certain country or area, depend on purchase from an authorized dealer, and may be limited to the original buyer.

[Wuerstchenhund]

not sure about france but here a contract to be valid can't go against the law. here customer protection laws apply

These laws generally deal with the contract between consumer and seller, not between consumer and manufacturer (where regularly no contract exists). This is pretty much EU wide.

[jemangedeslolos]

To be honest, I haven't read Keyseight, Lecroy or R&S warranties conditions.
I read Tektronix warranties only because I sold an old TDS last year and wanted to know if the next buyer would be protected.
http://www.tek.com/service/warranties/warranty-18

On paper, NO.
Maybe it is different in real life ?

Maybe I will consider buying a used oscilloscope in the future but I need an oscilloscope quickly on which I can count.
I will not wait 3 months before finding a rarity on Ebay 

[nctnico]

If you are worried about warranty: GW Instek offers a limited lifetime manufacturer warranty on their equipment for the original owner. The warranty ends 5 years after they stop producing the model.

[Wuerstchenhund]

To be honest, I haven't read Keyseight, Lecroy or R&S warranties conditions.
I read Tektronix warranties only because I sold an old TDS last year and wanted to know if the next buyer would be protected.
http://www.tek.com/service/warranties/warranty-18

On paper, NO.
Maybe it is different in real life ?

No, if the warranty conditions limit warranty to the original purchaser then that is the case. However, older instruments will be treated in accordance with the warranty conditions that were current when the thing was sold, which may have been different.

But as I said, this is less of a problem with Keysight, LeCroy or R&S as they generally don't do such shenanigans.

Maybe I will consider buying a used oscilloscope in the future but I need an oscilloscope quickly on which I can count.
I will not wait 3 months before finding a rarity on Ebay 

There's no need to wait 3 months, for Agilent/Keysight just ask for the S/N and then go to the Keysight website where you can check the warranty status. For LeCroy, contact their support and they'll tell you what warranty is on a scope.

Also, both manufacturers allow you to buy fresh warranty for a scope you bought 2nd hand, provided it is fully functional and still within the mainstream support period. Even when the original warranty has long expired. Keysight calls them "repair agreements", LeCroy just calls it "warranty". And the costs, especially for Keysight gear, can be surprisingly low, and often a younger 2nd hand unit plus repair agreement can give you the same as a brand new unit at a much lower price.

If you are worried about warranty: GW Instek offers a limited lifetime manufacturer warranty on their equipment for the original owner. The warranty ends 5 years after they stop producing the model.

Really? That's a very generous warranty offer, and it shows that they clearly have some confidence in their products.