Author Topic: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?  (Read 17522 times)

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Offline jemangedeslolosTopic starter

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Hello everyone,

Im looking for a new DSO.
I already have a Rigol DS2202A.
But Im looking now for a 4 channel DSO now because my needs are differents.
Im working a lot with serial bus and it will be very nice to see the serial bus and analog channel in real time.

The DS2202A is a great scope. It has just one huge flaw for me...the noise.
I know that I can change the fan but I will break the warranty and I don't want that.

The new DS4024E is probably noisy too but I need some feedback from owners to make the right choice.
I don't know where I can test the Siglent around me so I need you guys :)

I can't find a lot of videos on the SDS2000X so I need some informations regarding noise and serial bus decoding.
I know this is not a usual request but the noise is very annoying to me.

Thank you for your help :)

 

Online nctnico

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2016, 02:02:52 pm »
I bought a GW Instek GDS2204-E about a year ago based on the same requirements. Cheaper than the Rigol and Siglent you mentioned but it works well (no annoying bugs) and has several features the Rigol and Siglent don't offer like input filtering, 1Mpts FFT, formula based math and the GDS2204E is fast too (quad core 1GHz arm instead of a approx. 400MHz single core DSP).
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 02:05:33 pm by nctnico »
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Offline MrWolf

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2016, 07:18:58 pm »
Seems to be lack of info regarding SDS2000X FFT. There's this video and thats about it.


Max sampling rate, resolution, memory? Zoom X times?

With my old PicoScope 2205 MSO I can for example look at 25MHz spectrum at 50MS/s rate and 50k memory points with up to 100,000x zoom. When doing 100Hz spectrum can go down to 3mHz bin width...
BUT the trick is that spectrum always starts from 0Hz, meaning when looking something located at 20MHz minumum bin width is 762.9Hz.
So how these "real scopes" compare with this old soapbox?

To illustrate added some screenshots and grabs. Would be pity to go down from this capability when buying new scope.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 07:31:56 pm by MrWolf »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2016, 04:55:21 am »
Seems to be lack of info regarding SDS2000X FFT. There's this video and thats about it.
There's new FW coming soon that addresses the FFT issues in SDS2kX.
AFAIK it will very similar to the FFT improvements in the SDS1kX which uses very similar FW.
Wee mention of it here and a shot of the GUI.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1065554/#msg1065554

Hello everyone,

Im looking for a new DSO.
I already have a Rigol DS2202A.
But Im looking now for a 4 channel DSO now because my needs are differents.
Im working a lot with serial bus and it will be very nice to see the serial bus and analog channel in real time.

The DS2202A is a great scope. It has just one huge flaw for me...the noise.
I know that I can change the fan but I will break the warranty and I don't want that.

The new DS4024E is probably noisy too but I need some feedback from owners to make the right choice.
I don't know where I can test the Siglent around me so I need you guys :)

I can't find a lot of videos on the SDS2000X so I need some informations regarding noise and serial bus decoding.
I know this is not a usual request but the noise is very annoying to me.

There's quite a few bits you can find about the SDS2kX if you know where to look.  ;)

With the release of its little brother SDS1kX, new V2 firmware was developed for both around the same time and close variants of this FW are used in SDS2k, SDS2kX and SDS1kX, therefore the UI is much the same for all these models.
This V2 FW has been examined in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000-new-v2-firmware/
Other parts in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/
Anything that's missing is probably covered in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/

Like any thread, they are a history of the development and bug fixes and much has been changed and improved to this date.

SDS2kX fan noise
This is not the first time this question has been asked.
For some short time I had both a SDS2304 and SDS2304X and the fan noise was the same. Not noisy.
I can't be sure the exact same fan was in both units, I didn't check.
However some comments to previous questions on Siglent SDS X series DSO's:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg933022/#msg933022
Follow the links.  ;)

Anything else you need to know, just ask, I have a SDS2304X fully optioned demo unit just for jobs like yours.  :)
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Offline jemangedeslolosTopic starter

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2016, 09:49:53 am »
I bought a GW Instek GDS2204-E about a year ago based on the same requirements. Cheaper than the Rigol and Siglent you mentioned but it works well (no annoying bugs) and has several features the Rigol and Siglent don't offer like input filtering, 1Mpts FFT, formula based math and the GDS2204E is fast too (quad core 1GHz arm instead of a approx. 400MHz single core DSP).

Hello :)

Thank you for your post.
To be honest, I never thought about GW Instek.
I remember a horrible low end DSO from them but it was maybe 10 years ago.
I found your very instructive review and it seems to be a nice scope.

I know that it is not the most important thing in a DSO but you mention a noise that can be annoying and....you can be sure that I will be annoyed  |O
I suffer from migraine headache so I need something quiet.
 

Offline jemangedeslolosTopic starter

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2016, 10:09:02 am »
Seems to be lack of info regarding SDS2000X FFT. There's this video and thats about it.


Max sampling rate, resolution, memory? Zoom X times?

With my old PicoScope 2205 MSO I can for example look at 25MHz spectrum at 50MS/s rate and 50k memory points with up to 100,000x zoom. When doing 100Hz spectrum can go down to 3mHz bin width...
BUT the trick is that spectrum always starts from 0Hz, meaning when looking something located at 20MHz minumum bin width is 762.9Hz.
So how these "real scopes" compare with this old soapbox?

To illustrate added some screenshots and grabs. Would be pity to go down from this capability when buying new scope.

Interesting, fanless !
Even if I'm young, I'm not sure that it is the most ergonomic way to work.
But I have to look at the picoscope 5000 series review.
 

Offline jemangedeslolosTopic starter

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2016, 10:26:18 am »
Seems to be lack of info regarding SDS2000X FFT. There's this video and thats about it.
There's new FW coming soon that addresses the FFT issues in SDS2kX.
AFAIK it will very similar to the FFT improvements in the SDS1kX which uses very similar FW.
Wee mention of it here and a shot of the GUI.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg1065554/#msg1065554

Hello everyone,

Im looking for a new DSO.
I already have a Rigol DS2202A.
But Im looking now for a 4 channel DSO now because my needs are differents.
Im working a lot with serial bus and it will be very nice to see the serial bus and analog channel in real time.

The DS2202A is a great scope. It has just one huge flaw for me...the noise.
I know that I can change the fan but I will break the warranty and I don't want that.

The new DS4024E is probably noisy too but I need some feedback from owners to make the right choice.
I don't know where I can test the Siglent around me so I need you guys :)

I can't find a lot of videos on the SDS2000X so I need some informations regarding noise and serial bus decoding.
I know this is not a usual request but the noise is very annoying to me.

There's quite a few bits you can find about the SDS2kX if you know where to look.  ;)

With the release of its little brother SDS1kX, new V2 firmware was developed for both around the same time and close variants of this FW are used in SDS2k, SDS2kX and SDS1kX, therefore the UI is much the same for all these models.
This V2 FW has been examined in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000-new-v2-firmware/
Other parts in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/
Anything that's missing is probably covered in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-sds2000x-series/

Like any thread, they are a history of the development and bug fixes and much has been changed and improved to this date.

SDS2kX fan noise
This is not the first time this question has been asked.
For some short time I had both a SDS2304 and SDS2304X and the fan noise was the same. Not noisy.
I can't be sure the exact same fan was in both units, I didn't check.
However some comments to previous questions on Siglent SDS X series DSO's:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg933022/#msg933022
Follow the links.  ;)

Anything else you need to know, just ask, I have a SDS2304X fully optioned demo unit just for jobs like yours.  :)

Thank you for all those infos.
I read that the noise is the same level as a SDG2000x, and I have one !
That is a good news because it is tolerable for me.
When I power on both Rigol DS2202A and Siglent SDG2082X, the noise from the Rigol completely covers Siglent SDG noise.
All seems to be well implemented expect maybe FFT and serial decoding.
The new firmware seems to upgrade the FFT capability but I am aware that it will not be that great.
It can not be worth that my Rigol  >:D

This is the serial bus decoding that worried me a little.
The best would be to see a video decoding a uart or SPI in real time to see if the oscilloscope is responsive, if the trigger is stable etc etc.

 

Online TurboTom

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2016, 04:14:19 pm »
The Rigol DS4000 series fan is pretty noisy as well. I haven´t got a Siglent scope but the SSA3000X series spectrum analyzer, when sitting next to my MSO4000, is almost inaudible when both machines are powered up. So assuming the Siglent instruments of the "X" series are utilizing the same (or similar) fans and cooling arrangements, you won´t get happy with the Rigol scope, though otherwise I´ld consider it a fairly decent piece of kit.

Cheers,
Thomas
 

Offline Ginettag20

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2016, 09:23:51 pm »
I bought a SDS2202X last week and sending it back.  The scope build quality is very good and i dont think the fan was that loud. Unfortunately im am sending it back because the measurement text is so small its unreadable  as is much of the other text and i found lots of small software bugs. The other reason im sending it back is because it wont trigger on short pulses 20nS  that are widely spaced. Im not sure why this is as it works in single and in normal mode but not on auto. My Old tek scope has no issue with this.

I may be wrong to blame this on the scope as I have replaced it with Keysight 3024T. I dont claim to be a expert and I think there may be some pilot error. The cost is still making me ill. However the TEK scope cost me a lot and it is still working 15 years later. So buy cheap and perhaps buy twice.

Having said that i still think the SDS2202X was good just not quite good enough

 

Offline Ginettag20

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2016, 09:29:07 pm »
Changed my mind - the SDS22002X is really good and im sure anyone  would be happy with it. I use a scope most days and am lucky enough to be able to pay the keysight fan boy prices. Mind you not sure I can afford the licenses yet.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2016, 09:37:46 pm »
The other reason im sending it back is because it wont trigger on short pulses 20nS  that are widely spaced. Im not sure why this is as it works in single and in normal mode but not on auto. My Old tek scope has no issue with this.
That is normal and it will be the same on any non-Tektronix oscilloscope. It has to do with the delay after a trigger in auto mode. On most oscilloscopes this delay is very short (a fraction of a second). However on a Tektronix scope this is roughly close to second so even in auto mode it will appear to trigger on widely spaced pulses. There are advantages and disadvantages to the Tektronix way and to be honest I can't say I like it or hate it.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2016, 09:49:53 pm »
Changed my mind - the SDS22002X is really good and im sure anyone  would be happy with it. I use a scope most days and am lucky enough to be able to pay the keysight fan boy prices. Mind you not sure I can afford the licenses yet.
Good on you.
I do know for sure there are some trigger improvements coming in the soon to be released FW (beta tester and forum member told me so) along with improvements to FFT.
We'll examine them in some appropriate thread in due course.
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Offline Ginettag20

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2016, 10:17:07 pm »
Yes Thanks for that. I dont want to hog the thread but Keysight have posted a video about the triggering issue. I am not sure if its a problem as you say. I was however concerned  when testing my circuit that this short pulse would have been hidden. I new it was there as it is a reset line from 10 mhz 1 second divider. But If i had not known to look for it I would not have found it. the Tek TDS 2022 just shows it no problem.

I still think the small text size on the siglient is poor and no way to change font or make it larger. I found the "all measure on" function unreadable. The rigol has a much better screen layout etc as I use one at work.

Other annoying thing the sig gen goes into 0.1Mhz steps after 10Mhz.

However the  siglent is a pleasure to use apart from the font size. - I am getting old

To be honest I keep thinking I should keep the siglient as well given its half the price of the liciences for the keysight bundle price. I bought the siglent fully loaded with all features.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 10:21:20 pm by Ginettag20 »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2016, 12:33:10 am »
Let's hope they get the triggering dead right like the SDS1kX series, I sold one to a group of techs, one of which had a Agilent AWG with a little script loaded designed to trip up the trigger on most scopes.
He couldn't beat the SDS1kX trigger.  :)

Have you had a try adjusting the display brightness or using the only channels that are easier to read ?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 12:37:41 am by tautech »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2016, 06:42:54 am »
I bought a SDS2202X last week and sending it back. .... it wont trigger on short pulses 20nS  that are widely spaced. Im not sure why this is as it works in single and in normal mode but not on auto.

Auto trigger have different internal time constant related to trigger rearm. It is very important to exercise with new equipment, specially if have lot of experience with different equipment. It need learn new things but also it need forget some things.



Other annoying thing the sig gen goes into 0.1Mhz steps after 10Mhz.


With "rough" step is 1MHz after 10M. With "fine", step is 0.1MHz. Good for fast rough settings... but..

Lets hope Siglent name it different and then add also true "fine".

Today fine adjustment can do using virtual keyboard what "pop up" after push adjustment knob. There can set frequency with full resolution but this virtual panel is common panel for all. Perhaps it is better if there is special virtual panel for AWG.

Trigger is one of most important thing is oscilloscope. It need learn how to use it and how to set it. Auto is good start point and it give easy something on the screen but...  but trigger mode Normal is just as its name - normal, it is good to realize.

Just very trivial example and done with  SDS1102X+ (100MHz) what is as SDS2kX small brother.




SDS1102X+

6ns wide 500mV pulse every one second.
In image color is on for better visualize persistence in this case. 30s persistence is for show possible trigger instabilities. Also of course every single pulse can find time stamped if stop scope and read waveform history buffer, there is of course every captured single pulse separately and there can see looking separate pulses all time stamps that no one is missing.
1st image using Sin(x)/x On   



SDS1102X+

Sin(x)/x  Off in 2nd image





SDS1102X+

3. image show AWG setting 10.000010 MHz (of course true freq accuracy is related to internal time base but this is other question than setting resolution. With 10MHz this SDS1102X+ individual true freq is around 4ppm high.




SDS1102X+


4. Every single pulse can find in Waveform History Buffer with  time stamps.  Every single waveform (in this time these pulses) can look there and time stamps show that no single pulse is missing (of course). Time stamps also show that old HP pulse generator pulse time is not very accurate and it also have "lot" of timing jitter because oscilloscope time accuracy is really in very different higher class.

After bit ~ 6 and half minute acquisition I press History and there in wfm history buffer can see every single captured pulse. (after previous images trigger position changed so that pulse do not overlay separate waveforms list.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 08:19:12 am by rf-loop »
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Offline Ginettag20

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2016, 08:19:46 am »
Thanks some very good replies. I did not try the input panel as I just assumed it was not supported as the the fine rotary adjustment only worked in 0.1mhz steps.

Yes very correct in having to learn the characteristics of any new test equipment they all have there quirks.  I have to admit for much of the work I do a simple anolog scope and spectrum analyser are my tools of choice. And 10 years practice with the Tek Tds2022.

Given my other mistakes and assumption can the text font size be increased ?

It looks good on your pictures but my nose would be touching the screen to get that type of close up

Yes I did try the brightness control and thought it was a bit disappointing. The text can be made very bright but the waveform was quite dull when in single and normal. Infact when the scope did trigger the short pulse was entirely masked by the vertical centre graticule and I had to move the position control. I think the trace brightness and text and graticule would be better with separate control. I honesty cannot remember if this was the case for the Siglient.

The yellow measure text for trace one at the bottom of the screen was very hard for me to read. Other colours may be better.

Anyway I'm just wining - it's a great scope for the money and the front panel layout and controls are top drawer
Chris
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 08:30:20 am by Ginettag20 »
 

Offline MrWolf

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2016, 09:50:07 am »
Interesting, fanless !
Even if I'm young, I'm not sure that it is the most ergonomic way to work.
But I have to look at the picoscope 5000 series review.

They have new series
https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-overview
Has bots 2 channel MSO version and 4 channel version.
1M FFT. That means you get 100Hz bin width at full 100MHz spectrum.
Extreme amount of memory (128M on 100MHz version).
Downside it drops to 250MS/s when all 4 channels in use. In fact there is
no "middle range" Pico in that sense. They either drop to 250MS/s or you
have to buy high end 6000 series (1.25GS/s with 4 channels in use,
5GS/s with one channel).
In general these scopes are not ergonomical when you do a lot of
basic analog tinkering. But as soon as digital decoding or math
channels come in to play theres is no contest. In Pico you can
enter quite insane (think 8 math channels, 200 symbols of trigonometry on each)
math functions in seconds (copy-paste). And it can actually perform them because
it is done in PC hardware. "Real scopes" in mainstream (and likely hiend as well) range
physically lack processing power. So it rather powerful scientific
instrument than oscilloscope.

Think that optimal would have it all :) Some very basic disposable "physical"
scope to poke around in unknown, "physical" signal gen(s) and Pico for all the stuff that
involves any amount of data processing beyond simple 1-2 operation functions.

Edit: Old but interesting PS 6000 review:
Long & detailed:
http://colinoflynn.com/2013/12/picoscope-6000-6403d-review-comparison/
Unboxing:

PS software has moved on since then.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 10:18:04 am by MrWolf »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2016, 09:53:34 am »
Thanks some very good replies. I did not try the input panel as I just assumed it was not supported as the the fine rotary adjustment only worked in 0.1mhz steps.

Yes very correct in having to learn the characteristics of any new test equipment they all have there quirks.  I have to admit for much of the work I do a simple anolog scope and spectrum analyser are my tools of choice. And 10 years practice with the Tek Tds2022.

Given my other mistakes and assumption can the text font size be increased ?

It looks good on your pictures but my nose would be touching the screen to get that type of close up

Yes I did try the brightness control and thought it was a bit disappointing. The text can be made very bright but the waveform was quite dull when in single and normal. Infact when the scope did trigger the short pulse was entirely masked by the vertical centre graticule and I had to move the position control. I think the trace brightness and text and graticule would be better with separate control. I honesty cannot remember if this was the case for the Siglient.

The yellow measure text for trace one at the bottom of the screen was very hard for me to read. Other colours may be better.

Anyway I'm just wining - it's a great scope for the money and the front panel layout and controls are top drawer
Chris

Text size can not change. (at this time)
And and also I hope some improvement in this. I'm well over 60 and my eyes are not young man eyes at all.
But how to improve it, it need think carefully how to improve visual ergonomics for different situations.
It is not only because different eyes including more or less severe color blindness but also different environment. School class room and astronomic observatory with optical telescop with dim red lights or dark are different etc.
I have many times thinked that user need access to all colors. Just like in old color CRT  Rohde&Schw. where user can select traces, graticule etc all colors separately just as he want. Need only one table in setting menu where user can free select colors just as he want.
And this is not even difficult.

Font and size need perhaps more designing and optimization.
 

Graticule and trace brightness settings are separate, you can turn graticule from blank to high bright.
Mostly, trace brightness is ok in default 50%. This give best scale for intensity gradation. But it is not always best. Example these 1s period narrow pulses. If look these in roll mode example 1s/div (peak mode on also trigger auto for smooth scroll) there optimum is 100% trace brightness.   For very fine lines (specially vertical peaks in some cases)  it is good to adjust graticule brightness to more low, say example to 15-25%. Or change graticule style.
Some times I do not use channel 1 as main channel if I use SDS2k. In some cases visibility for MY individual eyes is perhaps better with other channel color.

I have "40 -80 cm" distance glasses for lab use. If I use normal  "read" glasses they are too close and if normal car driving glasses, they are terrible for close. Many times I need take glasses away for close. But, then it is too close. So I need "lab" glasses. Never want "multi  distance" glasses.

Oscilloscope and other equipments designers are many times "young mens and womens" who do not understand anything about human eyes and visibility.  Extra problem with chinese are that they are not familiar with our abc reading at all. They do not understand what is "font" and how we perceive the text in western world.  They have born to chinese text and they can perceive cinese text. Turn your scope to chinese language and perhaps it is good and easy read (for them).  This is same thing what is with big and small letters.
One difficult thing to chinese is text font and next is big and small letters. But for font, no one can tell them what is right and what is wrong. If they think chinese language and its "fonts" oh well then they know how important it is but with they own eyes... all western looks same... just as we look chinese.. chinese text looks chinese text and we do not often think what is this and that "font" in chinese text. If take some "old" chinese font, most chinese can not even read it. But western people can happy put it to his equipment and tell to chinese you can select also chinese language. (then they wonder what stupid font this western manufacturer use)
This font "war" and hassle have been as long time as I have seen chinese equipment data sheets, text in equipments menu, user manuals and so on.  Perhaps one reason is also mr Microsoft who set "default" fonts in some softwares. What a mess.





In this image trace brightness is 100% and graticule (if I remember right 20%) lower than 40% default.
(6ns pulses every one second, scope in roll mode with Auto trig selected for continuous roll)
EV of course. Cars with smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the (strong)wises gone?
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2016, 10:06:50 am »
Interesting, fanless !
Even if I'm young, I'm not sure that it is the most ergonomic way to work.
But I have to look at the picoscope 5000 series review.

They have new series
https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-overview
Has bots 2 channel MSO version and 4 channel version.
1M FFT. That means you get 100Hz bin width at full 100MHz spectrum.
Extreme amount of memory (128M on 100MHz version).
Downside it drops to 250MS/s when all 4 channels in use. In fact there is
no "middle range" Pico in that sense. They either drop to 250MS/s or you
have to buy high end 6000 series (1.25GS/s with 4 channels in use,
5GS/s with one channel).
In general these scopes are not ergonomical when you do a lot of
basic analog tinkering. But as soon as digital decoding or math
channels come in to play theres is no contest. In Pico you can
enter quite insane (think 8 math channels, 200 symbols of trigonometry on each)
math functions in seconds (copy-paste). And it can actually perform them because
it is done in PC hardware. "Real scopes" in mainstream (and likely hiend as well) range
physically lack processing power. So it rather powerful scientific
instrument than oscilloscope.

Think that optimal would have it all :) Some very basic disposable "physical"
scope to poke around in unknown, "physical" signal gen(s) and Pico for all the stuff that
involves any amount of data processing beyond simple 1-2 operation functions.

PicoScope 2208B maximum USB streaming samplerate is  9.6 MSa/s (31 MSa/s with SDK)




EV of course. Cars with smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the (strong)wises gone?
 

Offline Ginettag20

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2016, 10:18:35 am »
Rf-loop

You make many good comments. I find any yellow text very hard to resolve and I'm sure it would be very simple to add a trace colour option. I'd would prefer not to have the probe colours fixed on the bnc probe connectors and even I can count upto 4.

Never thought about the Chinese language and font size. This does need attention rigol do this much better.


Your right about eye glasses as I think it's time to get my eyes tested again.ngetting old is not much fun.
Best regards Chris
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 10:23:26 am by Ginettag20 »
 

Offline MrWolf

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2016, 10:29:28 am »
PicoScope 2208B maximum USB streaming samplerate is  9.6 MSa/s (31 MSa/s with SDK)

Well I hope that you do not think that "real scopes" work in "streaming" mode :D

Just random science paper to clear a picture about dead time etc:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24784654

"In traditional digital storage oscilloscope (DSO), sampled data need to be processed after each acquisition. During data processing, the acquisition is stopped and oscilloscope is blind to the input signal. "

"In this paper, a seamless acquisition oscilloscope without dead time is proposed" (2014!)

Pico is just the same as any other DSO in that sense. BUT, Pico it at least capable of streaming
at some reasonable rate. Try 31MS/s with your random pick desktop scope.

As for math functions - so far I have been fully ok applying math on sample buffer just as it would
be with any desktop scope.

Think that desktop scopes get enough publicity on this forum. Here may be some
people that may have more scientific interests that general tinkerer and think I is
rather ok to inform them that there are tools for that also :)

Edit: Dead time has to do with wfms/s spec of scopes:
Rigol DS1054Z - 30kwfms/s
Siglent SDS1000X - 60kwfms/s
Siglent SDS2000X - 140kwfms/s
Pico 2000B - 80kwfms/s
Pico 6000C/D - 170kwfms/s
So you can see that "real" and USB scopes are pretty much in same ballpark.
Old EEVBlog rant about USB scopes being crap tech wise is long obsolete.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 10:47:00 am by MrWolf »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2016, 10:58:20 am »
I have used a Picoscope at one of my employers and it is just clunky to use. Turning a timebase or vertical sensitivity knob is so much easier than using the mouse to pull up a menu and select something different. Also the vertical range of that Picoscope was crap to use. On purpose or not the 1-2-5 vertical scale you find on a normal oscilloscope gives a good readout for signals with common voltage levels like 3.3V, 5V, 12V etc.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline MrWolf

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2016, 11:10:51 am »
On purpose or not the 1-2-5 vertical scale you find on a normal oscilloscope gives a good readout for signals with common voltage levels like 3.3V, 5V, 12V etc.

You mean like 1-2-5 on attached pic from latest PS software?
Also I already said - its not so much for basic analog tinkering if youre not a IT-person.
Is see much the same with multimetes. My most used instrument is this:
http://www.peaktech.de/productdetail/kategorie/digital---handmultimeter/produkt/p-1020.html
But I have 30,000 counts true RMS DMM in a drawer :P Time from time I
grow a brain, take it from drawer and actually do something non-trivial.
Personal goal is to do it more often :P
 

Online nctnico

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2016, 11:12:51 am »
That is full range, not per vertical division (I should have been more clear about that). A small but significant detail! For example 1V/div gives you 8V full range which shows a 5V signal nicely. On the picoscope you'd have to choose 10V full range which compresses the signal to half the screen size. Also on many Picoscopes the maximum input voltage is +/-5V versus a couple of hundred Volts on a normal scope.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 11:16:29 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: looking for a 4 channel DSO - Siglent SDS2204X or Rigol DS4024E ?
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2016, 11:16:06 am »
PicoScope 2208B maximum USB streaming samplerate is  9.6 MSa/s (31 MSa/s with SDK)

Well I hope that you do not think that "real scopes" work in "streaming" mode :D

Just random science paper to clear a picture about dead time etc:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24784654

"In traditional digital storage oscilloscope (DSO), sampled data need to be processed after each acquisition. During data processing, the acquisition is stopped and oscilloscope is blind to the input signal. "

"In this paper, a seamless acquisition oscilloscope without dead time is proposed" (2014!)

Pico is just the same as any other DSO in that sense. BUT, Pico it at least capable of streaming
at some reasonable rate. Try 31MS/s with your random pick desktop scope.

As for math functions - so far I have been fully ok applying math on sample buffer just as it would
be with any desktop scope.

Think that desktop scopes get enough publicity on this forum. Here may be some
people that may have more scientific interests that general tinkerer and think I is
rather ok to inform them that there are tools for that also :)

Edit: Dead time has to do with wfms/s spec of scopes:
Rigol DS1054Z - 30kwfms/s
Siglent SDS1000X - 60kwfms/s
Siglent SDS2000X - 140kwfms/s
Pico 2000B - 80kwfms/s
Pico 6000C/D - 170kwfms/s
So you can see that "real" and USB scopes are pretty much in same ballpark.
Old EEVBlog rant about USB scopes being crap tech wise is long obsolete.

Yes. And SDS2000X in Sequence mode 500kwfm/s inside one sequence.
In most fast speed with Sequence mode,  blind/dead time is 1.3us and capture length is in this case 0.7us.  (50ns/div)

Some  Pico models have one nice  feature, same as in Siglent. Always in the background working full speed Waveform history buffer.
EV of course. Cars with smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the (strong)wises gone?
 


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