Lecroy - HDO4034A vs Tektronix - MDO3104

[Plasmateur]

We are having a bit of a debate in the lab as to which scope to purchase, personally I want to go with the Lecroy while another scientist wants the Tektronix just because that's the only scope brand they've ever used.

Here's the specs that I've compared between the two scopes.

   

Code: [Select]

                        Lecroy - HDO4034A         Tektronix - MDO3104                 Winner
Release Date         Apr-17                         Jun-15                                 Lecroy
Price                 $11K                          $14K                                 Lecroy
Resolution         12bit - (15bit enhanced) 8bit - (11bit Hi Res)                 Lecroy
Mem Depth         50 Mpoints                 10 Mpoints                         Lecroy
Bandwidth            350 MHz                         1 GHz                                 Tektronix
Rise Time         .75 ns                         .4 ns                                 Tektronix
Sample Rate         10 Gs/s                 5 Gs/s                                 Lecroy
Enhanced SR         125Gs/s Repetitive         Not Available                         Lecroy
Screen Size         12.1"                         9"                                 Lecroy
Noise Floor         145 uVrms @ 1mV                 179uVrms @ 1mV                         Lecroy
Channel Isolation 1000:1 @ DC-200MHz         100:1 @ DC-100MHz                 Lecroy
Stray Capacitance 15 pF                         3.9 pF                                 Tektronix

Any opinions?

[Kean]

What are your actual needs?
Have you looked at R&S?

[Plasmateur]

What are your actual needs?
Have you looked at R&S?

My needs and my colleagues needs are a bit different. I want to have the high bit depth because I will need to see relatively small signals buried within another relatively large signal.

Also, I need to use a Harmonic mixer to mix down a carrier frequency (60GHz) resolve something close to the carrier, like 60.006GHz, to look for non-linear interactions.... but I would need a really high sampling rate to do this.     

[simone.pignatti]

wait 7 days from today and buy the R&S RTM3K-COM4 or the RTA4K-COM4

RTM3K data sheet
https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTM3000_bro_en_5214-9144-12_v0600.pdf

RTA4K data sheet
https://scdn.rohde-schwarz.com/ur/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTA4000_bro_en_5215-1776-12_v0500.pdf

[JPortici]

Ask for a test drive. Even better if you can get them in the same week

[dzseki]

At work we have DPO3034 which is I believe a very close match to that MDO. After 10 years the rotary encoders went bad, the official repair quote was 3000€, of course we did not bought it, instead did it in DIY way. As for the hardware, not sure if the MDO is significantly better but ours is really not that fast when using the full memory depth, let alone I you switch on math and measurements... the default capture depth is 100kpts at which the scope fares well.

[mk_]

We are having a bit of a debate in the lab as to which scope to purchase, personally I want to go with the Lecroy while another scientist wants the Tektronix just because that's the only scope brand they've ever used.

Any opinions?

I work with several LeCroys, own a Tek MDO3054.

If the money is aviable I would never buy the TEK again but look to R&S or LeCroy.

Reason: The userinterface of the MDO is one of the inconsistentest and ugliest UIs I ever had to work with, it`s getting slow when doing a little bit of math and the surrounding support is bad - compared with the LeCroy.

One of my customers has a HDO6104 (12 bit, 4 channel, 1GHz with 250MB memory/channel). It`s great to have the raw data (which is huge when using all that memory) from the LeCroy downloaded via LAN and then running Octave or similar.

At the customers site there are also about 10 or 12 year old probes from LeCroy, still useful on the newest units. Try this at TEKs... if you buy probes now - in 3-5 years expect them to throw them away because some clever guy decides to invent a new probe.interface.... This alone is a solid argument against TEK BTDT.

And yes, ask for testsystems and enough testingtime. Start a competition inside your lab for difficult measurements... and see how it can be done with the different units..

[Mr Nutts]

We had Tek MDO3000s at the college I went to and they were truly horrible, not just because everything on them was so slow, the knobs and buttons lock up when the scope is doing something demanding like FFT or just serial decoding, and quite often it crashed, too

The "spectrum analyzer" part in the MDO was poor, too, because it's just FFT and not a real spectrum analyzer like a swept spectrum on. I guess even a cheap SA made by Rigol or Siglent will perform much better

The college only bought Tek because most of the profs didn't know any better and because Tek was the best thing since sliced bread last time they had contact with actual industry (which usually was in the 70s or 80s)

One prof who was still an active engineer who also did part-time teaching introduced us to Keysight and LeCroy. What a world of difference

BTW, according to a former member who deals with lots of test equipment and knows these instruments inside out even Tek's latest scopes are still poor, and he said whoever considers Tek for a scope needs to get his heat examined 

Personally I ended up with Lecroy LT374 and Agilent Infinum 8064. Both are old by today's standards but still worlds better than the POS Tek scopes at college

[nctnico]

What are your actual needs?
Have you looked at R&S?

I second this. R&S also has several different acquisition modes (including peak detect) which the Lecroy doesn't have.

[dietert1]

I think your table was clear enough and if you put the extra 3K the Tektronix costs into a higher bandwidth version of the HDO, another two of the three Tektronix wins may disappear. As interesting as it is, the low input capacitance of the Tektronix vanishes as a win as soon as you want to measure above 100 or 200 MHz, since that probably means using active probes.

Regards, Dieter

[tautech]

We are having a bit of a debate in the lab as to which scope to purchase, personally I want to go with the Lecroy while another scientist wants the Tektronix just because that's the only scope brand they've ever used.

Here's the specs that I've compared between the two scopes.

   

Code: [Select]

                        Lecroy - HDO4034A         Tektronix - MDO3104                 Winner
Release Date         Apr-17                         Jun-15                                 Lecroy
Price                 $11K                          $14K                                 Lecroy
Resolution         12bit - (15bit enhanced) 8bit - (11bit Hi Res)                 Lecroy
Mem Depth         50 Mpoints                 10 Mpoints                         Lecroy
Bandwidth            350 MHz                         1 GHz                                 Tektronix
Rise Time         .75 ns                         .4 ns                                 Tektronix
Sample Rate         10 Gs/s                 5 GHz                                 Lecroy
Enhanced SR         125Gs/s Repetitive         Not Available                         Lecroy
Screen Size         12.1"                         9"                                 Lecroy
Noise Floor         145 uVrms @ 1mV                 179uVrms @ 1mV                         Lecroy
Channel Isolation 1000:1 @ DC-200MHz         100:1 @ DC-100MHz                 Lecroy
Stray Capacitance 15 pF                         3.9 pF                                 Tektronix

Any opinions?

What happens when you throw a $7.5k 1 GHz 4ch Siglent into the mix ?

[nctnico]

Nobody gets fired for buying Tektronix...
Tektronix does have a new 4 series scope coming out in a couple of weeks which probably is a better alternative to the MDO3k/MDO4k series. These have 6 channel models as well. If there is time I would get one of these on loan to see how it compares.

[Mr Nutts]

Nobody gets fired for buying Tektronix...

Yeah, right, if you're a government employee or work in education maybe

Tektronix does have a new 4 series scope coming out in a couple of weeks which probably is a better alternative to the MDO3k/MDO4k series. These have 6 channel models as well. If there is time I would get one of these on loan to see how it compares.

If the existing MSO5 and MSO6 are an indicator then the new Tek 4 series scope will again perform poorly and be full of bugs

And it appears Tek support is poor, too

Why would anyone buy Tek if there are much better alternatives out there? 

[0xdeadbeef]

I'd personally always choose a LeCroy over a Tek. Letting aside the GUI, the much better measurement possibilities and stuff like WaveScan: LeCroy has the same probe interface for some decades now while Tek changes it every few years. The only benefit I see for the Tek MDO line is the somewhat questionable spectrum analyzer (which is even more crippled in the MDO3000) and the existence of keygens for options (but 1GHz bandwidth is only possible on the the MDO3104).
What about a compromise? Sacrifice the 12bit resolution but get the 1GHz bandwidth with a WaveSurfer 510.

[DaJMasta]

They are sort of in different classes in terms of bandwidth, but especially with the feedback from the thread so far.... the LeCroy is just obviously a newer generation scope.  If you don't need the super high bandwidth, the specs are basically all in favor of the LeCroy, and it sounds like the UI, responsiveness, and connectivity options are a ways ahead of the Tek.  FWIW, I think the MDO4000 series from Tek probably is a much better match, the MDO4034C is pretty close for price and bandwidth, but offers the 6GHz SA in place of the better frontend and acquisition of the basic channels on the LeCroy, and it should be a bit more modern feeling and performing than the MDO3000 series, which I believe was their first iteration of the MDO series.

[nctnico]

If the existing MSO5 and MSO6 are an indicator then the new Tek 4 series scope will again perform poorly and be full of bugs

That is a bit early to say. I'll admit the MSO5 and MSO6 didn't seem to work very well when released but it would be reasonable to expect most of the teething problems have been ironed out by now. However I don't have any information on the current state so the best advice is to get one on loan if you are looking at a scope in this price range. Maybe it is perfect for the job. Maybe not. Either way no harm is done and at least you went through all the possibilities.

[snoopy]

We are having a bit of a debate in the lab as to which scope to purchase, personally I want to go with the Lecroy while another scientist wants the Tektronix just because that's the only scope brand they've ever used.

Here's the specs that I've compared between the two scopes.

   

Code: [Select]

                        Lecroy - HDO4034A         Tektronix - MDO3104                 Winner
Release Date         Apr-17                         Jun-15                                 Lecroy
Price                 $11K                          $14K                                 Lecroy
Resolution         12bit - (15bit enhanced) 8bit - (11bit Hi Res)                 Lecroy
Mem Depth         50 Mpoints                 10 Mpoints                         Lecroy
Bandwidth            350 MHz                         1 GHz                                 Tektronix
Rise Time         .75 ns                         .4 ns                                 Tektronix
Sample Rate         10 Gs/s                 5 GHz                                 Lecroy
Enhanced SR         125Gs/s Repetitive         Not Available                         Lecroy
Screen Size         12.1"                         9"                                 Lecroy
Noise Floor         145 uVrms @ 1mV                 179uVrms @ 1mV                         Lecroy
Channel Isolation 1000:1 @ DC-200MHz         100:1 @ DC-100MHz                 Lecroy
Stray Capacitance 15 pF                         3.9 pF                                 Tektronix

Any opinions?

waveform update rate and dedicated spectrum analyser ?

[Mr Nutts]

If the existing MSO5 and MSO6 are an indicator then the new Tek 4 series scope will again perform poorly and be full of bugs

That is a bit early to say.

That's what people who evaluated these scopes on multiple occasions say. It appears Tek has added some more options but the basic firmware is still full of bugs

And then there's also the user interface, which it seems on the MSO5 and MSO6 is as illogical as on other Tek digital scopes. And there's even less chance that this will be fixed

I'll admit the MSO5 and MSO6 didn't seem to work very well when released but it would be reasonable to expect most of the teething problems have been ironed out by now.

Last time I used the MDO3000 at college the series was on the market for over three years, and still with the latest firmware there were crashes

Last I heard, this has barely changed with today's firmware

I guess you'd have to be a hardcore Tek fan to overlook all these things

FWIW, I think the MDO4000 series from Tek probably is a much better match, the MDO4034C is pretty close for price and bandwidth, but offers the 6GHz SA in place of the better frontend and acquisition of the basic channels on the LeCroy, and it should be a bit more modern feeling and performing than the MDO3000 series, which I believe was their first iteration of the MDO series.

The MDO4000 my college had were not much better than the MDO3000. I think the biggest benefits were the larger display and that the "spectrum analyzer" could be used at the same time as the scope function (on the MDO3000 you can have either scope or spectrum analyzer). It was still slow and the user interface was basically the same as on the MDO3000

[Mr Nutts]

waveform update rate and dedicated spectrum analyser ?

I don't know the exact data but the trigger rate on the MDO was very low, like a few thousand updates per second. There's fastaq but that works with data reduction and excludes most of the scope's functionality when active

Also:

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/blog/the-truth-about-oscilloscope-waveform-update-rates-and-why-not-to-fall-for-it.1514/

It appears the trigger rate of the MDO300o is 2200 per second in normal mode.

The "spectrum analyzer" is very poor, not just in its performance. It's just FFT and like everything else on the MDO3000 is so slow that it hurts

[Plasmateur]

What happens when you throw a $7.5k 1 GHz 4ch Siglent into the mix ?

What's the highest sampling rate you can give me?

[tautech]

What happens when you throw a $7.5k 1 GHz 4ch Siglent into the mix ?

What's the highest sampling rate you can give me?

5 GSa/s.
https://www.siglentamerica.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds5000x/

[snoopy]

waveform update rate and dedicated spectrum analyser ?

I don't know the exact data but the trigger rate on the MDO was very low, like a few thousand updates per second. There's fastaq but that works with data reduction and excludes most of the scope's functionality when active

Also:

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/blog/the-truth-about-oscilloscope-waveform-update-rates-and-why-not-to-fall-for-it.1514/

It appears the trigger rate of the MDO300o is 2200 per second in normal mode.

The "spectrum analyzer" is very poor, not just in its performance. It's just FFT and like everything else on the MDO3000 is so slow that it hurts

Yes the Teks normally default to slow update rates as usual but the Tek has Fast Acquisition mode or DPO mode as well as a Fast Frame capture mode using segmented memory. Don't think the Lecroys have ever offered fast acquisition  rates. The Intensity graded display of the Tek is useful to display AM waveforms etc or anything that you would use a normal CRO to display.

I believe the spectrum analyzer on the MDO is more like a normal spectrum analyzer rather than FFT so there are some benefits of doing this in hardware.

cheers

[Mr Nutts]

Yes the Teks normally default to slow update rates as usual

Because Tek's architecture is slow as hell

but the Tek has Fast Acquisition mode or DPO mode as well as a Fast Frame capture mode using segmented memory. Don't think the Lecroys have ever offered fast acquisition  rates.

No?



And as far as I know this intensity mode works with the full sample rate and all scope functions are still available when it's enabled - unlike Tek fastaq

The Intensity graded display of the Tek is useful to display AM waveforms etc or anything that you would use a normal CRO to display.

You say that as if intensity graded display was something special - it isn't. Even my old Lecroy LTs have it, in monochrome (analog scope style) and color, and even as a waterfall display And these scopes are over 16 years old

I believe the spectrum analyzer on the MDO is more like a normal spectrum analyzer rather than FFT so there are some benefits of doing this in hardware.

You may believe this (probably because of Tek marketing BS) but the reality is the "spectrum analyzer" of the MDO3000 and MDO4000 is just FFT, not a real swept spectrum analyzer. And it suffers from the same limitations re. span vs RBW as the scope FFT due to the limited FFT size

And like the scope FFT, the SA is painfully slow unless you select a very short span with a large RBW

A cheap Siglent or Rigol spectrum analyzer is a much better investment if you work with RF than using the MDO3000's built-in "spectrum analyzer" POS

[2N3055]

waveform update rate and dedicated spectrum analyser ?

I don't know the exact data but the trigger rate on the MDO was very low, like a few thousand updates per second. There's fastaq but that works with data reduction and excludes most of the scope's functionality when active

Also:

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/blog/the-truth-about-oscilloscope-waveform-update-rates-and-why-not-to-fall-for-it.1514/

It appears the trigger rate of the MDO300o is 2200 per second in normal mode.

The "spectrum analyzer" is very poor, not just in its performance. It's just FFT and like everything else on the MDO3000 is so slow that it hurts

Yes the Teks normally default to slow update rates as usual but the Tek has Fast Acquisition mode or DPO mode as well as a Fast Frame capture mode using segmented memory. Don't think the Lecroys have ever offered fast acquisition  rates. The Intensity graded display of the Tek is useful to display AM waveforms etc or anything that you would use a normal CRO to display.

I believe the spectrum analyzer on the MDO is more like a normal spectrum analyzer rather than FFT so there are some benefits of doing this in hardware.

cheers

MDO3000 and MDO4000 doesn't have FastFrame or any type of segmented memory...
It's spectrum analyser is direct sampling type using Z-chirp transform.
It is exactly similar to FFT based solution, but it has user interface that is SA like and it is optimized  for best performance possible with built in A/D. It's performance is a bit better that usual FFT on a scope but is significantly worse that real SA.
Fast Acq mode has nice waveform rate, but display has sampling artefacts (it looks like it's rendered from short horizontal lines not dots) and it's biggest problem is that when you use it ALL measurements are disabled.

Except 1 GHz, there is nothing going for Tek MDO3000 series. LeCroys are superior in every way, Keysight 3000T too, R&S 3000 series also, if money is tight new Siglent 5000X series is orders of magnitude better ..

[0xdeadbeef]

Some (?) LeCroy had/have a special mode called "WaveStream" which is meant to simulate an analog scope (like "digital phophor" etc.).
Actually an older/lesser XP based Wavesurfer 64xs (or so, can't recall the exact model number) has this feature, while a more modern and higher end Win7 based Waverunner 6zi doesn't.
I somewhat assume that for the lesser scopes it was some kind of FPGA feature while for the higher end scopes they rely on the CPU power to do intensity grading in SW.
For sure though the intensity grading is much less pronounced on a LeCroy than on any Agilent/Keysight.
To be honest, I'm not a big fan of this anyway. While it's true that you might spot glitches because of fast update rate, a glitch is always very dark due to the intensity grading logic. On a LeCroy, you would rather use advanced measurement/analysis/trigger features to spot issues than to stare at the screen.