LCR meter for repair, UT612 or DE-5000

[rauldm]

Hi, I searching a good low cost LCR meter for repair, what is better option, UT612 or DE-5000?
Thanks.

[MosherIV]

Most people on this forum prefer the DE5000.
Both units are pretty unlikely to go wrong. If they do, they are very modern, current technology meaning repair is not that easy, difficult to un-solder, highly integrated chip sets which are difficult to source.
Good luck 

[2N3055]

I have UT612. I got it for a very good price  few years ago, and it has been working quite well since. Only complaint is that tweezers that came with it are crap.

But you must be aware that both UT612 and DE5000 are not meant to measure in circuit. They have pretty much zero resilience to charged capacitors and if you measure something powered you will damage it.

[rauldm]

Thanks for your recomendations, for example is better option for repair, buy an ESR tester and test capacitor, after remove the posible damaged capacitor and test with ut612 or DE-5000?

Another question, really matter the true Kelvin 4-wire measure? 4-wire measure improve inductance and capacitance measure? or is only for DC resistance test? I have also a 34401a meter. My question is because the ut602 with all accesorys is 40 usd more cheap than DE-5000 in my country.
Regards.

[MosherIV]

Hi.
I missunderstood what you were asking. I thought you wanted to buy a broken lcr meter to repair.

What you are asking is which is better lcr meter to test if component is bad.

My bad   

If you want something cheap, the "LCR T4" testers will work nicely.
They will give you an indication if a capacitor has bad esr.
For repair, your not actually interrested in measuring the exact value, just if the esr is way off what it should be. For electrolytic caps, the esr shoots up to 10 or more. The cheap tester will do that.
The cheap tester cannot be trusted to give accurate L, C or R measurements.

I do not know if kelvin clamps affect L or C measurements. They will need to be shielded coax for LC measurement, since they are done with AC.
R is purely a DC measurement.

[bc888]

Perhaps someone here can speak to how it compares to the DE5000 or UT612, but the Agilent U1731, forerunner to the U1733C ESR meter can often be found on Ebay for @$70.

[TheDefpom]

I have had the DE5000 for a while, it can test in circuit but you need to be aware that the readings may not always be correct.

I actually just received a UT612 unit for review from Banggood, I haven't played with it much but agree that the tweezers that are supplied with it are rubbish, they even came pre-bent.

Watch out for my review video coming out comparing the two units, I will be recording the video in the next week so the video will be out after that.

[rauldm]

Exist like accessory without modification 4-wire kelvin test probes?
What is the main use for your meter?

[rauldm]

Don't problem, thanks for your answer, just now I only have question, really improvement on 4-wire test? I don't need accuracy as bench instruments, but, I want a better tool in its price range. I decided also buy the ESR70 for on circuit diagnostic, after un soldering cap and test with LCR meter. (I hope don't take away your time.)

[MosherIV]

Please can you explain what you want, what is it for?

You have mentioned 3 instruments for measuring L and C.

You have mentioned that you want it to check component when repairing equipment.

I have explained that for repair, you do not need to know the exact value of a component.
In fact when a electrolytic capacitor goes bad, the capacitance may not change.
On top of that capacitor tolerance can be as much as +/-25%
You only need to check electrolytic capacitors and then you check the Equivilant Series Resistance (ESR)

Do not see much on bad inductors in the repair forum. They are either ok or they are open circuit, something you can check with a dmm.

[001]

Cheap component tester is good for repair LCR measurments
Check thread https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/$20-lcr-esr-transistor-checker-project/

[rauldm]

I would want use the LCR meter because ESR measure only is not precise for diagnostic of capacitor health, is more precise with  tan δ parameter, but I don't have LCR or ESR meters, only have multimeters with capatitance measurement. I was must more especific with my questions. Regards.

[CDaniel]

If you want this only for electrolytic capacitors I guarantee that a simple ESR meter is enough ...
4 wires measurement can be done simply and is much accurate for measuring small resistance , but you can avoid that by using very short normal probes .

[BroMarduk]

I would want use the LCR meter because ESR measure only is not precise for diagnostic of capacitor health, is more precise with  tan δ parameter, but I don't have LCR or ESR meters, only have multimeters with capatitance measurement. I was must more especific with my questions. Regards.

I'm by no means an expert but I thought dissipation factor (tan δ) and ESR are mathematically related (along with quality factor) so if you know one you can determine the other.  Therefore one is as good as another as a data point in measuring capacitor health against a datasheet.

I pretty much measure either ESR or tan δ (%) depending on what is on the datasheet with my DE-5000 and/or Peak Atlas ESR-70 (gives limited in-circuit ESR support) and go from there.

[MosherIV]

I am no expert either.
I am not sure what tan δ parameter is, until you explained.

I can tell you that ESR was not an parameter that was quoted for C in data sheet.
It was only after many people started making and using ESR meters that manufacturers started to include it on data sheets.
Some just use the headline 'low esr' without actually quoting the actual value.

For practicle purposes, yes you can used lcr meter to measure tan δ parameter and cross reference it in the data sheet to see if it matches or is off.
Or you can use cheap ESR meter, measure the value and the general rule is that if it is >10
Then the capacitor is bad.

[Kosmic]

DF=ESR/Xc
ESR=DF*Xc

Where:
DF = Dissipation Factor (tan δ)
ESR = Equivalent Series Resistance
Xc = Capacitive Reactance

IET labs has a nice document explaining LCR meters: https://www.ietlabs.com/pdf/application_notes/030122%20IET%20LCR%20PRIMER%201st%20Edition.pdf

[rauldm]

Not all capacitor can be evaluated for ESR, for example audio capacitor or decoupling capacitor it has high ESR. Ok DF is proportional to ESR but you need Xc. I found more information about this topic,  is not recommended test on board with LCR because is not has input protection also another problem is the voltage test from LCR meter, it can damage  or activate IC components. The input protection I think is not problem because you can manually discharge capacitor with resistor. Finally I concluded, the ESR is good test only for power supply capacitors, if I want test another capacitor is better option the LCR and remove to PCB. I think I must buy two equipments, LCR and ESR, I think for your recomendations I must go fot DE-5000 and ESR70. 

[Kosmic]

If you have an LCR meter you don't really need an ESR meter. ESR meter are normally stripped-down (or just simpler ?) version allowing you to only measure ESR (Rs).

To answer your original question, I would go with the DE-5000. Low price, good specs, well reviewed and tons of user.

[David Hess]

If you want this only for electrolytic capacitors I guarantee that a simple ESR meter is enough ...

That is not always the case.  One failure mode for old aluminum electrolytic capacitors is a rise in ESR at high frequencies which a low frequency ESR or dissipation test will not reveal.  A high frequency dissipation test or network analyser is required to detect this.

[CDaniel]

For practical use any good ESR meter will detect a bad capacitor when you are used to it , sometime at 100KHz the ESR is much better and still the capacitor is bad at 50Hz , there is not a definitive frequency or method ...

[MosherIV]

Not all capacitor can be evaluated for ESR, for example audio capacitor or decoupling capacitor it has high ESR. Ok DF is proportional to ESR but you need Xc.
....
Finally I concluded, the ESR is good test only for power supply capacitors, if I want test another capacitor is better option the LCR and remove to PCB. I think I must buy two equipments, LCR and ESR,

Yes, that is correct. ESR is only an issues for electrolytic (you called them PSU caps).

It is very rare for other types of capacitor to go wrong.
Generally speaking there are 2 main capacitor faults :
1. ESR goes high on electrolytic caps
2. RIFA cap explode after case cracks and moisture gets in.
There is no test for RIFA caps, it is just a good idea to replace them.

I do volunteers work at a computer museum. The stuff we maintain can range in age between 50 to 10 years old. We only see the above problems. Very rarely do we see problems with other types of capacitors. They are easy to fault find, usually cap is used in timing circuit and it is pretty obvious timing is off and cap measurent on dmm. If we suspect components will be bad due to age, we may test and replace them. We have not seen any issues with decoupling caps. We do not have much work on audio circuits.

If you want to buy 2 peices of equipment, that is ok.
We are just telling you, you only need 1.

[David Hess]

It is very rare for other types of capacitor to go wrong.
Generally speaking there are 2 main capacitor faults :
1. ESR goes high on electrolytic caps
2. RIFA cap explode after case cracks and moisture gets in.

Epoxy packaged solid tantalum capacitors may fail short for reasons which are not always clear.  I have never seen dry or wet hermetically sealed tantalum capacitors short though.

[rauldm]

Really I thanking suggestions, the experiences from each people that posted in my post are very important for me.

[notfaded1]

FWIW... I just went ahead and got a DE-5000 kit with both sets of probes then bought a separate TL-21 so I could add better longer kevin clips to it I bought.  You really can't beat this combo from what I've seen.  The longer kelvin clip leads and better clips make measuring big fat electrolytic caps easy!   

For a good explanation of the science see TRX Bench videos: 
He's got some good ones.  Check out his other video on Q, Phi, ESR, etc.

Regards,

Bill

[rauldm]

Very good explain by this video, in youtube comments on this video, I found a interesting commentarium about ESR confiability, for example exist cases where ESR value is right but, capacitance value is not correct, I bought 2 equipments ESR70 and LCR DE-5000, they not arrived yet, but I have 2 capacitors with less than capacitance they are indicating, I removed from PSU, I measure the ESR with my waveform generator and oscilloscope, I found the ESR good. When the esr70 and the de-5000 arrive home, I will upload screenshots comparing the results with the oscilloscope, some of my Flukes and the meters mentioned above.