Korad KA3005P+ (from welectron)

[twist3r]

Hey guys,

I'm looking to buy this Korad KA3005P+ model. But since I'm a newbie, there are things that I don't know (or not understand).

Can someone help me figureout some things before I decide to buy this from welectron website?

Here are my qustions (I'll also upload few images, please check them out):


https://www.welectron.com/Korad-KA3005P-Benchtop-Power-Supply-Safety-Terminals

^

1.
At welectron webstie, I can pick between KA3005P (screw terminals) and KA3005P+ (safety terminals).
I tried to google, but I coudn't figuoreout on my own. What are 'safety terminals'?
I guess thats the 'area' with 3 holes (red, black, green)? Please check the images that I uploaded.
If 'Safety terminals' are those that doesn't have 'screws' for red/black (and green) test leads, are those terminals better than screw terminals? Would picking 'safety terminals' make the issue in the future if (lest say) I damage the cables and can't use some other 'spare' cables, but would have to order again from welecron their own cables?

2.
At the same page, I can also select to get 'test' leads'. (Please check the images I upload or check the link I shared above). Can someone tell me what would be the best among 8 differrent cables that I can pick? From what I see, by default site suggest me to pick 'Measuring Lead 2.5mm² 1.50m Pair Red/Black' for 10.5 euros.
Is that the one I should pick? My main goal with this power supply, is to use it for voltage injection while tring to find the faulty component on PC motherboard (and laptop) (or PC GPUs). Do I need 'clap-type' or aligator clip, or...just the one that site suggested me for 10.9 euros ('Measuring Lead 2.5mm² 1.50m Pair Red/Black')?

3.
At the back of the power supply...there is a place for AC cable connector. Can the same cable that is used for...PC power supply or for monitor power supply, be used with this bench power supply? I mean, is it he same type of cable?

4.
I'm not from Germany (which is where guys from welectron are located). I plan to ask some family members to offer it from Switzerland. So...Switzerland is not a member of EU. I see that on welectron site KA3005P+ without VAT cost 100 euros.
Can someone tell me how much VAT should be charged when the packkage arrive in Switzerland?

5.
At welectron site it sais 'arriving soon' shipping time 34-36 workdays. Am I correct to asume that the prower supply is not in Germany, but I would have to wait until it arrive from (I guess) china?

6.
For those who order it from other european countries, can you tell me how long it took for a package to arrive at your doorstep after you paid for it on welectron website?

Thanks!

p.s. Can someone who bought a 'plus' (+) model, KA3005P+ from welectron, attach the picture of the front (and back) so I can see how exactly look like. Did it came with 'safety terminals'? Also, ...are you sattisfied with that using (a 'plus' model) and do you find something that you don't like? (like maybe loud fan, or did they fixed it with 'plus' version)

[tunk]

1:
From the pictures, "safety terminals" looks like multimeter-like terminals with a shroud.
Some more info here: https://lygte-info.dk/info/DMMProbes%20UK.html

3:
yes.

[twist3r]

1:
From the pictures, "safety terminals" looks like multimeter-like terminals with a shroud.
Some more info here: https://lygte-info.dk/info/DMMProbes%20UK.html

3:
yes.

Thanks for your answer.
Yes, I thought that safety terminals are like the ones on multimeters. I don't know what is so 'safe' about them. I mean, whats the advantage of 'safety terminals' over 'screw terminals'?
I think I saw much more 'screw terminals' built on bench power supplies than 'safety terminals'. So now I'm thinking if buying a bench power supply with 'safety terminals' is a good longterm decision.

[tunk]

If you use shrouded banana plugs, there's no exposed metal, i.e. not possible
to cause a short etc. at the PSU end. Screw terminals are more flexible, you can
e.g. use spade connectors or exposed wire. I would go for screw terminals, cheaper
and more flexible.

[twist3r]

Thanks again for your reply.

Well, thing is that the latest model (a 'plus' model sold only at welectron) has some 'fixes' and improvements compared to the standard (non plus) model (KA3005P).
But the 'plus' model comes with 'safety terminals'. Thats why I'm confused what is better.
I do want the unit that has fixes of the old model 'faults'. But...I don't know what to thing about those 'safety terminals' for a longterm.

[ebastler]

Hi twist3r, thanks for your PM. I'll reply here in case others are interested:

1. The "P+" version has some desirable improvements, independent from the safety jacks: Red/green display, and probably also the other user interface differences as discussed here.

When I bought my Korads last year, Welectron offered four different versions -- with/without the safety jacks, and with/without the UI changes. Seems they have limited the choices. I recommend the modified user interface of the "P+" version, although I prefer the non-safety jacks. You'll havbe to make a choice there...

2. Only the first five are actually test leads, and they are all different lengths. You will have to decide, depending on your bench layout. Too long leads get messy, too short leads get you nowhere. 

3. As already stated by tunk, yes, it's a standard IEC connector.

4. Swiss VAT is 7.7% according to Google, and of course you don't have to pay ther German VAT then, but start with the net price  (100€ for the P+).

5. Yes, they are either already in a container on a ship from China, on their way to Welectron, or their shipment has been announced by Korad. I ordered one of my Korads from Welectron under the same conditions; it ended up taking a few weeks longer to arrive than they had assumed.

6. Welectron's own shipping was quick. The second Korad I ordered from them (when they had it in stock) arrived within a couple of days.

Please see my older thread regarding my experience with the "plus" version. It was not called "plus" when I ordered it, and was not more expensive than the prior version. I guess Welectron got surprised by the changes, since they had not advertised them. But they concluded that the new improvements were good, so they gave it a new name and a €10 higher price. I would still buy the "plus", since I like the two-color display, the LOCK LED, and the "permanent adjustement" mode.

[twist3r]

Thanks ebastler for your reply here and over PM.
Yes, I already saw your topic (that is how I 'found you')

I wonder if it would be possible to ... lets say... buy current Korad Ka3005P+ model, and then switch 'safety terminals' for 'screw terminas'? How hard that could be...considering that I'm a newbie?

I also (think) that I found another website where Korad KA3005P(+) can be bought, but its not 100% clear if they are seling a 'plus' model, or a regular 'non-plus'.
I found it here: https://eleshop.eu/korad-ka3005p-0-30v-0-5a-programmable-supply.html

^ ...they do not mantion a 'plus' model, but they are saying this:

Models

The difference between the two models we offer can be found in the connectors at the front. We offer a model with screw connectors and a model with safety connectors. The advantage of the model with screw connectors is that both banana plugs and separate wires can be inserted. Both models are identical in terms of functions and properties.

So, maybe they do offer both 'safety or screw' terminals, but there is no way to 'pick' one of them while trying to 'order' it on the website. I'm a bit confused here.

offtopic:
Aside the fact that site like eleshop.eu (eleshop.nl) ...somehow looks ...'suspcious' to me. I don't know why. Also they are selling it for 91 euros (maybe its a not-plus.
At the top of that, they are offering Atten ST-862D hot air soldering station for only 161 euros, which is...really...'low price' I would say. Don't know what to think of that site (eleshop.eu), and if they are reliable or not? I kinda wanted to buy desktop power supply from welectron. (why did they have to change terminals?   )

[techneut]

Eleshop.eu has its prices ex vat so the price will be 21% higher + shipping. depending on the VAT.

[ebastler]

I guess there is no perfect answer here... These are low-cost Chinese power supplies, after all. There may be delivery times, supply shortages, unannounced model changes, European distributors who do not know much about the product and just ship boxes, ... I'm afraid there is no European supplier which always has all models in stock.

That being said, Welectron do know what they sell; but they apparently can't control the supply changes and delays. I have no experience with eleshop.eu.

The KA3005P is also available under various OEM names. Stamos S-LS-30, RND 320-KA3005P, and I am sure I have seen others. But they tend to be more expensive than the Korad brand, their availability also varies, and you can't be quite sure of the version you get. Buying a KA3005P directly from China (via Aliexpress) does not seem advisable either, given the high shipping costs and the import duties which will come on top.

Waiting for availability from Welectron may be your best bet. Why do you want the unit to be shipped via Switzerland, by the way? Can't you have it shipped directly to your home for the same "non-EU" shipping cost from Welectron? (Which is expensive, unfortunately.)

Replacing safety jacks by screw posts may not be straightforward, by the way: The safety jacks may require bigger holes in the sheet metal (since the safety shroud with its larger diameter will have to pass through). But I have not taken these apart, hence could be wrong.

[twist3r]

Eleshop.eu has its prices ex vat so the price will be 21% higher + shipping. depending on the VAT.

What do you mean by 'price willbe 21% higher' ? Why 21% ? If it is ordered from Switzerland, it can't be 19% or 21% VAT. Switzerland is not part of EU.

@ebastler: There are few reasons why would I want this unit to be ordered from Switzerland.

1. As you said Swiss VAT is (probably) around 7.7% (not 19% or 21%).
2.  Also, shipping.. ONLY for Switzerland and Norway, shipping cost with DHL is 9.9 euro. https://www.welectron.com/Shipping-cost (check under 'Worldwide Delivery')
3. Getting it from Germany to Switzerland shouldn't take long. Bad thing is that welectron does't have the unit right now available.

If I would order it from my country...well...here is how customs calculate the fees.

First, IF (which is a big 'IF") custom 'believe the price that is paid for a unit' (they can decide not to believe the price and establish their own price for the product)...

So... if the unit is paid 100 euros, and shipping for that is ..(lets say) 60 euros for 5KG weight.. ...at the custom they would use 160 euros as a 'base' for calculating all the other fees (100+60).

So...they will value the unit like it cost 160 (because they say that shipping price is also added to the value of the product that I order).
Then, they take 10% fee, which is 16 euros. That increase the price from 160 to 176. Then they calculate 20% VAT, which is around 35 euros. So now...thats 176+35= 211 euros. Then...since they had to 'open the package' (because...'who knows, maybe its a bomb there') I have to pay extra ~ 5 euros because they are doing their job (which they are already paid for), so now its 211+5=216 euros.
And finally.... ...are you ready for last non-sense? Even though I paid for DHL shipping, once the package arrive in my country, the 'local' DHL office would charge me another ~ 60 euros for their service (or how they call it... 'freight'). That is how a product that cost 100 euros at welectron site, end up with the value of 216+60= 276 euros.
And 276 euros is not the money I want to pay for something that cost 100 euros. Its like I almost bought 2 extra units aloing with the initial one.

I think now you understand why I don't want to order it directly from my country.

[tooki]

If at all possible, buy it from a vendor which ships to Switzerland with customs pre-cleared and VST prepaid, or is already in Switzerland. Otherwise, you risk nasty surprises on delivery, very much like what you describe. (Sure, 7.7% VAT, but then a 30 franc fee just to calculate and collect the VAT for you…)

Reichelt is likely the cheapest, but they don’t have it in stock.

Distrelec has the non-plus version in stock:
Version with data port (CHF 142, free shipping): https://www.distrelec.ch/en/bench-top-power-supply-30v-5a-150w-programmable-cee-rnd-lab-rnd-320-ka3005p/p/30061864
Version without data port (CHF 90+ 8 shipping): https://www.distrelec.ch/en/bench-top-power-supply-30v-5a-150w-adjustable-cee-rnd-lab-rnd-320-ka3005d/p/30061863

Since they have them in stock in Switzerland, a Distrelec order placed today will arrive tomorrow.

[twist3r]

Thanks tooki for your reply!

Since you're from Switzerland, and since there are things that I have no clue about, I hope you will not mind if I ask some questions...

Everytime I'm thinking of ordering something, my first thought is to look at try to find specific electronic part that can be bought direclty from within Swiss country. But most of the time, that is not possible. Or at least, I couldn't find the website store which sells electronics and ship it from within Switzerland .
reichelt is a website store from Germany. Their main webiste is reichelt.de. They also have a site at .com  domain. So I believe they are shipping form withing Germany.

As for Distrelec, I fear that they don't have a storage in Switzerland but only an office in 8606 Nänikon. Since you live in Switzerland maybe you can confirm if I'm wrong about that.

About your suggestion to order it from Distrelec. What they are selling is not a Korad unit but RND. I know its probably (almost) the same thing just diferent brand. But... Korad unit had some faulty things in the past, which Dave found. And there was a YT video of him (and other YT guy) reporting it that Korad 'fixed' that issue. Through the years, Korad fixed some things on their unit. I don't know what RND did and did they fixed the same things that Korad unit has fixed. Korad unit also fixed that 'lock' button. I have no clue if RND did the same thing with the latest batch that they manufactured. Also I found somewhere at YT that someone reported RND unit getting faulty.

Question regarding Switzerland VAT and how it is calculated:

1. VAT = VST (in Switzerland) correct? (is it the same thing just different 'name'?)

2. If I pay...let say German VAT, does that mean I will not be charged to pay Switzerland VAT (VST) when the package arrive in Switzerland?

3. Is it possible when ordering from website located in Germany, to 'strip' the German VAT but add Switzerland VAT (VST) which I will be pay along with the product before it arrive in Switzerland, so that I don't have to pay extra when it arrives at customs in Switzerland? Can you try to explain to me how that part works? Is it possible to pay Swiss VAT at German website, so that you don't have to pay nothing extra when it arrive in Switzerland?

4. One family member from Switzerland told me that he ordered some sunglasses from Italian webiste few years ago. He said that (if he remembers correctly) he paid 200 euros for sunglasses and that Swiss VAT was around... 7-8% (which is what you told me). Thats not much considering what I would pay if I order the same thing from my country (I'll probably better not wearing sunglasses because of that   )
So my question is: lets say you pay some product 100 euros and also you pay... 50 euros for a shipping (DHL). Will the Swiss customs apply VAT at 100 euros or they will (like in my country) apply 7% to 150 euros (product value + shipping cost)?

[adam4521]

Another OEM variant for these products is Tenma. In the UK these are available from CPC, reasonable prices (lower than Amazon): https://cpc.farnell.com/c/test-equipment/bench-power-supplies-sources-loads?brand=tenma.

I have the 'dual' version with the 'safety terminals'. Once you have got a selection of leads to plug in, they really aren't an issue in my opinion.

[tooki]

5.Everytime I'm thinking of ordering something, my first thought is to look at try to find specific electronic part that can be bought direclty from within Swiss country. But most of the time, that is not possible. Or at least, I couldn't find the website store which sells electronics and ship it from within Switzerland .
reichelt is a website store from Germany. Their main webiste is reichelt.de. They also have a site at .com  domain. So I believe they are shipping form withing Germany.

As for Distrelec, I fear that they don't have a storage in Switzerland but only an office in 8606 Nänikon. Since you live in Switzerland maybe you can confirm if I'm wrong about that.

6. About your suggestion to order it from Distrelec. What they are selling is not a Korad unit but RND. I know its probably (almost) the same thing just diferent brand. But... Korad unit had some faulty things in the past, which Dave found. And there was a YT video of him (and other YT guy) reporting it that Korad 'fixed' that issue. Through the years, Korad fixed some things on their unit. I don't know what RND did and did they fixed the same things that Korad unit has fixed. Korad unit also fixed that 'lock' button. I have no clue if RND did the same thing with the latest batch that they manufactured. Also I found somewhere at YT that someone reported RND unit getting faulty.

Question regarding Switzerland VAT and how it is calculated:

1. VAT = VST (in Switzerland) correct? (is it the same thing just different 'name'?)

2. If I pay...let say German VAT, does that mean I will not be charged to pay Switzerland VAT (VST) when the package arrive in Switzerland?

3. Is it possible when ordering from website located in Germany, to 'strip' the German VAT but add Switzerland VAT (VST) which I will be pay along with the product before it arrive in Switzerland, so that I don't have to pay extra when it arrives at customs in Switzerland? Can you try to explain to me how that part works? Is it possible to pay Swiss VAT at German website, so that you don't have to pay nothing extra when it arrive in Switzerland?

4. One family member from Switzerland told me that he ordered some sunglasses from Italian webiste few years ago. He said that (if he remembers correctly) he paid 200 euros for sunglasses and that Swiss VAT was around... 7-8% (which is what you told me). Thats not much considering what I would pay if I order the same thing from my country (I'll probably better not wearing sunglasses because of that   )
So my question is: lets say you pay some product 100 euros and also you pay... 50 euros for a shipping (DHL). Will the Swiss customs apply VAT at 100 euros or they will (like in my country) apply 7% to 150 euros (product value + shipping cost)?

1. No. VST is not VAT. (VST is some kind of tax on investments, completely irrelevant here.) VAT (en) = MwSt (de) = TVA (fr/it)

2. No. Whether you paid German VAT does not matter to the Swiss government, they still want their tax. Smaller foreign vendors that don’t collect Swiss VAT can leave off their e.g. German VAT when selling to Switzerland (and usually will), but they don’t always.

2/3:
As of a year or two ago, any foreign vendor selling more than (IIRC) CHF 100000 per year into Switzerland is required to collect Swiss VAT at the time of sale, which means no customs surprises on delivery. Any large vendor (Digi-Key, mouser, Farnell, RS, Conrad, Reichelt, Amazon, etc.) is big enough to meet this threshold. So it’s only when ordering from smaller vendors (like welectron) or individuals that customs surprises are likely.

When Swiss VAT is collected, it means that Swiss VAT is collected instead of higher EU VAT.

For this reason, I very much try to order from vendors big enough that they collect Swiss VAT, since it saves all sorts of hassles and costs.

4. Swiss VAT, at least when it’s collected on delivery, is based on the value including shipping costs (7.7% of 150 in your example).

5. Reichelt is in Germany, but if the website is set to Switzerland, their prices are the bottom line price including Swiss VAT. No customs surprises.

Anything on Distrelec.ch that’s available for 24h shipping or for pick-up is physically located in Nänikon. (You can even get same-day delivery from them, or go by and pick it up yourself.) Anything that says 3 day shipping comes from abroad (not sure where), but again, with Swiss VAT already collected, so no customs surprises.

Electronics suppliers who warehouse in Switzerland include: Distrelec and Conrad for electronics components; Brütsch-Rüegger for tools and fasteners; Brack, Microspot, and Digitec/Galaxus for consumer electronics and household stuff.

Foreign electronics components vendors who ship to Switzerland with Swiss tax collected, customs pre-cleared (DDP incoterms) include: Distrelec (for whatever isn’t in stock in Switzerland), Digi-Key, Mouser, Farnell, RS, Reichelt, ELV, and probably some others. (IIRC, direct orders from Texas Instruments are also this way.) Make sure Switzerland is selected as the country right from the start, since some websites empty your cart when changing country.

6. Whether it’s labeled Korad, RND, Tenma, Vellemann, or whatever other rebadge brands, Korad is the manufacturer of this thing.

[twist3r]

Thank you so much for your reply! You shared a lot good information about buying things and shipping it to Switzerland.

Yet, I'm still confused (sorry about that).
There is this thing that confusing me. I re-read your previous comment and goolged it and...I still can't decide what is what.

In your previous comment, you said:

If at all possible, buy it from a vendor which ships to Switzerland with customs pre-cleared and VST prepaid, or is already in Switzerland. Otherwise, you risk nasty surprises on delivery, very much like what you describe. (Sure, 7.7% VAT, but then a 30 franc fee just to calculate and collect the VAT for you…)

Then in the comment above, you said:

VST is not VAT. (VST is some kind of tax on investments, completely irrelevant here.) VAT (en) = MwSt (de) = TVA (fr/it)

Then I googled 'Swiss VAT' and it sais:

Switzerland has very low VAT rates compared to the EU countries. The standard tax rate is 7.7% and the reduced tax rate is 2.5%

Seams like... VAT in Switzerland has the same meaning like in the rest of the Europe, with just that 'small' difference that it is not 20% but only 7.7%. Correct?
Ok, but then...I'm confused why did you said:

If at all possible, buy it from a vendor which ships to Switzerland with customs pre-cleared and VST prepaid, or is already in Switzerland. Otherwise, you risk nasty surprises on delivery, very much like what you describe. (Sure, 7.7% VAT, but then a 30 franc fee just to calculate and collect the VAT for you…)

Ok, I'll ask website to calculate Swiss VAT before I order it, so I can pay that as well with my order. But what is that VST then? Do I have to ask German site to calculate Swiss VST as well? Or I will be paying VST when it arrives in Swiss? (maybe in that case I would have to pay extra 30 FR that you talked about?)
So should I (if that is possible ) ask the site to strip German VAT and add Swiss VAT + Swiss VST, so that my family members from Switzerland will not have to pay anything extra when it arrives at their doorstep in Switzerland? This VST thing is confusing me.
If you think that I can more easily understand, take this as an example:
Let say that an item on german website cost 119 euros (because they calculated 19% German VAT). So without German VAT, value of that item is 100 euro. Please can you tell me what are the all other taxtes that the site would apply at the value of 100 euros, that include everything that needs to be paid to Switzerland before it arrives it in Switzerland?


As for the other things that you said:

Smaller foreign vendors that don’t collect Swiss VAT can leave off their e.g. German VAT when selling to Switzerland (and usually will), but they don’t always.

What does that actually mean. Does that mean they will chage me more for German VAT and leave me to be charged again for Swiss VAT when the package arrive in Switzerland? Why woudn't they remove German VAT when it is obvious that they are going to ship the item outside Germany?

---

So big vendors (Digi-Key, mouser, Farnell, RS, Conrad, Reichelt, Amazon) already calculate Swiss VAT when I'm about to pay for the product that I put in the 'cart' on their website? But what about the smaller vendors like welectron (or individuals)... Can I asked them (politely) to calculate Swiss VAT, or they just don't have such possibility? (I'm asking so that I can know if they CAN do that but they don't want to, or they just CAN'T)?
For instance Welectron is seling that KORAD bench power supply for 100 euros (without German VAT). Shipping with DHL is 9.9 euros (for anything up to 12Kg in weight). So ...if welectron can't calculate Swiss VAT at their site, does that mean I would have to pay for the item when it arrives in Switzerland:

100+9.9 (shipping) = 109.9 (lets round it to 110 euros. So Swiss will apply 7.7% at the value of 110 euros + 30 euros for their  service? OR... they will first add 30 euros (or franc) to 110 euros (so its like 110+30), and then apply 7.7% to a value of 140 euros? Will that be the end of robbery or there is more? I need to know what is the worst case scenario.

Reichelt is in Germany, but if the website is set to Switzerland, their prices are the bottom line price including Swiss VAT. No customs surprises.

This is what always confusing me when browsing foreigh websites. Because... I never know if by switching to different country on their website, means that site 'language' is just about to change to the selected country language, or that the VAT (and prices) will be for that country specifically?

Electronics suppliers who warehouse in Switzerland include: Distrelec and Conrad for electronics components; Brütsch-Rüegger for tools and fasteners; Brack, Microspot, and Digitec/Galaxus for consumer electronics and household stuff.

^ I never heard about Brütsch-Rüegger and Brack company. For Microspot I heard recently when I was browsing Swiss Ricardo where one seller was selling used PC parts and said he bought them in Microspot. So I'm guessing Microspot is not Swiss company but some foreign (German?) company?
As for Digitec, that is where I ordered my Galaxy S II phone back in 2011 (strange thing was that default phone laguage was set to Hungary). I was even in their store in Dietikon. At the time, I was surprised its just for 'picking up already ordered things'. As a tourist I thought it is an actual shop like InterDiscount

btw. What is Galaxus? Is that a partner of Digitec or maybe some company that bought Digitec?

---
offtopic 1: Did you ever order anything from mindfactory.de ? And did it get cheapr than buying it in Swiss? (they mostly sell PC hardware as far as I know).
offtopic 2: Who sells in Swiss cheapest PC parts? (I thought its Digitec, but now I'm not so sure)
---

When you say ELV you mean https://ch.elv.com/ ? (I never heard of them so I tried to google)

Whether it’s labeled Korad, RND, Tenma, Vellemann, or whatever other rebadge brands, Korad is the manufacturer of this thing.

This is an itneresting thing that you just wrote. Because just yesterday, I was googling the KORAD model 'KA3005P' and got to digikey website:
https://www.digikey.ch/en/products/detail/sra-soldering-products/KA3005P/10709868

^ Do you see what they wrote under 'manufacturer' ? They are saying that manufacturer is 'SRA Soldering Products' and the 'series' is 'KORAD'.

Then I googled 'SRA Soldering Products' and ended up here:
https://www.sra-solder.com/our-brands/

^ at the bottom of their page there is 'Our Brands' link, and that is where you get when you click on it. There KORAD is listed as their brand (along with AOYUE which I already heard about before). So question is... who is the actual manufacturer of KORAD? Is KORAD a company or just a series of specific tool of different company (SRA Soldering Products)?

And one more interesting thing: even though I'm at digikey .ch domain, under: Voltage - Supply it is written 110 ~ 220VAC. So I would guess that is an even older model of KORAD where there was a 'switch' (If I got all that right) where you can sellect what is the main voltage that you gonna use that power supply on.
KORAD has lots of improvemants. Even removed that M5 function for 'lock' button which doesn't turn off quickly if I understood it right. I'm not sure if RND, Tenma (sold at farnell) have such improvements included. And I'm pretty sure, asking any website to confirm such would be waste of time.

Btw. when ordering from farnell, which of its many subdomain I should use (for ordering it to arrive in Switzerland)? I'm guessing https://ch.farnell.com/ ?

^ I'm sorry that (again) I dropped bunch of questions at you.

[ebastler]

VST was simply a typo, I assume. A and S are right next to each other on the keyboard.

[twist3r]

VST was simply a typo, I assume. A and S are right next to each other on the keyboard.

Yes, you might probably be right about it. But when a newbie like me (who don't understand a lot of things) reads it, and try to understand it, such a small mistake creates lots of strugle while I'm doing my best to 100% understand what-is-what.
I hope tooki would not get angry at me for asking so many questions that (at first sight) appers that are already answered.

[tooki]

Seams like... VAT in Switzerland has the same meaning like in the rest of the Europe, with just that 'small' difference that it is not 20% but only 7.7%. Correct?
Ok, but then...I'm confused why did you said:

If at all possible, buy it from a vendor which ships to Switzerland with customs pre-cleared and VST prepaid, or is already in Switzerland.

Oh, I see. Sorry, it was just a simple typo of VAT.

Ok, I'll ask website to calculate Swiss VAT before I order it, so I can pay that as well with my order. But what is that VST then? Do I have to ask German site to calculate Swiss VST as well? Or I will be paying VST when it arrives in Swiss? (maybe in that case I would have to pay extra 30 FR that you talked about?)
So should I (if that is possible ) ask the site to strip German VAT and add Swiss VAT + Swiss VST, so that my family members from Switzerland will not have to pay anything extra when it arrives at their doorstep in Switzerland? This VST thing is confusing me.
If you think that I can more easily understand, take this as an example:
Let say that an item on german website cost 119 euros (because they calculated 19% German VAT). So without German VAT, value of that item is 100 euro. Please can you tell me what are the all other taxtes that the site would apply at the value of 100 euros, that include everything that needs to be paid to Switzerland before it arrives it in Switzerland?

It's not really something you "ask" for. If they offer it, it'll be because they expressly sell to Switzerland, e.g. by offering the country setting, and at checkout, you see 7.7% VAT. You'll also typically have the option to pay in CHF.

There's no sure-fire way to easily tell, which is why I'm telling you ones that I know for a fact do it. Some shops expressly say it in plain speech (e.g. "prices include Swiss VAT"), others "say" it with business-y terms ("DDP incoterms" is what you want), others don't really say it anywhere and you have to deduce it from their collecting 7.7% VAT.

As for the other things that you said:

Smaller foreign vendors that don’t collect Swiss VAT can leave off their e.g. German VAT when selling to Switzerland (and usually will), but they don’t always.

What does that actually mean. Does that mean they will chage me more for German VAT and leave me to be charged again for Swiss VAT when the package arrive in Switzerland? Why woudn't they remove German VAT when it is obvious that they are going to ship the item outside Germany?

Because they have to have a solid paper trail for the German government to justify why they're not paying the German government its VAT. Companies that routinely export things have processes set up to do this, so they can prove the goods were sent abroad, so the government is satisfied it's not being defrauded. A company that rarely sells abroad may decide it's not worth it, since it's easier to just collect VAT on everything. Same as if you go to a brick-and-mortar shop in Germany: they have to collect German VAT at the time of sale, period. Many shops -- but not all -- in touristy areas expressly offer "duty free shopping", meaning they've gone to the effort to set up whatever process is needed so that they can issue you a special receipt to use at the border to request a VAT refund when leaving the country. Shops that don't cater to tourists simply won't make the effort, since it costs money to set up and mistakes could cost them dearly.

So big vendors (Digi-Key, mouser, Farnell, RS, Conrad, Reichelt, Amazon) already calculate Swiss VAT when I'm about to pay for the product that I put in the 'cart' on their website? But what about the smaller vendors like welectron (or individuals)... Can I asked them (politely) to calculate Swiss VAT, or they just don't have such possibility? (I'm asking so that I can know if they CAN do that but they don't want to, or they just CAN'T)?

They usually can't. The setup costs to be able to do this are significant, which is why only large companies are required to do it. Before the requirement, only a tiny number of companies (like Amazon) did it.

I have heard of vendors who balk at removing German VAT from small orders, because it's a lot of work for them, so they're happy to do it on a 10K euro order, but not on a 60 euro one. But these are generally not consumer products.

For instance Welectron is seling that KORAD bench power supply for 100 euros (without German VAT). Shipping with DHL is 9.9 euros (for anything up to 12Kg in weight). So ...if welectron can't calculate Swiss VAT at their site, does that mean I would have to pay for the item when it arrives in Switzerland:

100+9.9 (shipping) = 109.9 (lets round it to 110 euros. So Swiss will apply 7.7% at the value of 110 euros + 30 euros for their  service? OR... they will first add 30 euros (or franc) to 110 euros (so its like 110+30), and then apply 7.7% to a value of 140 euros? Will that be the end of robbery or there is more? I need to know what is the worst case scenario.

Worst-case? Who knows, that's the "surprise" part of the surprise charges. It exceeds the scope of a reasonable request to ask for a comprehensive tutorial on international tax law, if that were even knowable. But what I would expect is 7.7% of 110 euros, plus a service charge which can be anywhere from 0-30 francs, typically. But no guarantees.

I suppose there exist some products that have special tariffs applied to them, in which case those would also be collected. Not relevant to a simple lab PSU or consumer goods.

Reichelt is in Germany, but if the website is set to Switzerland, their prices are the bottom line price including Swiss VAT. No customs surprises.

This is what always confusing me when browsing foreigh websites. Because... I never know if by switching to different country on their website, means that site 'language' is just about to change to the selected country language, or that the VAT (and prices) will be for that country specifically?

Depends on the site. It's usually a strong clue if you see "language", "country", and "currency" options next to each other at the same time, as with Reichelt, Distrelec, Digi-Key, etc.

Electronics suppliers who warehouse in Switzerland include: Distrelec and Conrad for electronics components; Brütsch-Rüegger for tools and fasteners; Brack, Microspot, and Digitec/Galaxus for consumer electronics and household stuff.

^ I never heard about Brütsch-Rüegger and Brack company. For Microspot I heard recently when I was browsing Swiss Ricardo where one seller was selling used PC parts and said he bought them in Microspot. So I'm guessing Microspot is not Swiss company but some foreign (German?) company?

Nope, Swiss. Owned by Coop (who also owns InterDiscount, Fust, and a gazillion other retail stores). It's Coop's discount mail-order-only electronics/household shop.

Because of the problem of surprise import charges, the Swiss people largely avoided ordering from abroad, allowing a surprisingly large number of domestic online shops to get established. The aforementioned 100K revenue threshold changed this a bit, since it expanded the number of surprise-free foreign vendors, but as I said, this was just in the past couple of years.

As for Digitec, that is where I ordered my Galaxy S II phone back in 2011 (strange thing was that default phone laguage was set to Hungary). I was even in their store in Dietikon. At the time, I was surprised its just for 'picking up already ordered things'. As a tourist I thought it is an actual shop like InterDiscount

btw. What is Galaxus? Is that a partner of Digitec or maybe some company that bought Digitec?

Galaxus is Digitec's brand for household goods. (Digitec is owned by Migros, by the way.)

offtopic 1: Did you ever order anything from mindfactory.de ? And did it get cheapr than buying it in Swiss? (they mostly sell PC hardware as far as I know).

No, sorry, don't know them.

offtopic 2: Who sells in Swiss cheapest PC parts? (I thought its Digitec, but now I'm not so sure)
---

I don't do much in this regard, honestly. But I've typically ordered storage devices from digitec, brack, or microspot.

When you say ELV you mean https://ch.elv.com/ ? (I never heard of them so I tried to google)

Correct.

Whether it’s labeled Korad, RND, Tenma, Vellemann, or whatever other rebadge brands, Korad is the manufacturer of this thing.

This is an itneresting thing that you just wrote. Because just yesterday, I was googling the KORAD model 'KA3005P' and got to digikey website:
https://www.digikey.ch/en/products/detail/sra-soldering-products/KA3005P/10709868

^ Do you see what they wrote under 'manufacturer' ? They are saying that manufacturer is 'SRA Soldering Products' and the 'series' is 'KORAD'.

Then I googled 'SRA Soldering Products' and ended up here:
https://www.sra-solder.com/our-brands/

^ at the bottom of their page there is 'Our Brands' link, and that is where you get when you click on it. There KORAD is listed as their brand (along with AOYUE which I already heard about before). So question is... who is the actual manufacturer of KORAD? Is KORAD a company or just a series of specific tool of different company (SRA Soldering Products)?

SRA distributes products made by others. Korad is the manufacturer. SRA even provides the Korad datasheet.

And one more interesting thing: even though I'm at digikey .ch domain, under: Voltage - Supply it is written 110 ~ 220VAC. So I would guess that is an even older model of KORAD where there was a 'switch' (If I got all that right) where you can sellect what is the main voltage that you gonna use that power supply on.
KORAD has lots of improvemants. Even removed that M5 function for 'lock' button which doesn't turn off quickly if I understood it right. I'm not sure if RND, Tenma (sold at farnell) have such improvements included. And I'm pretty sure, asking any website to confirm such would be waste of time.

I honestly don't know.

Btw. when ordering from farnell, which of its many subdomain I should use (for ordering it to arrive in Switzerland)? I'm guessing https://ch.farnell.com/ ?

Correct.

[twist3r]

Thank you very much for all the information that you shared!

I will re-read it few more times, but I think you did answer all my questions.

I even learned few more things about owners of certain shops in Swiss (nice!). So Coop has a monopoly there? And Digitec is owned by Migros? btw. I love 'Branches' chocolate 'bars' from Migros, though more brands are making them. But I like to buy the whole box with 30 (or even 50) bars in it when they are on sale.

offtopic: I visited MediaMarkt in Dietikon. Is it owned by Coop as well or is it a store from Germany?

[tooki]

Migros and Coop in a way form a significant duopoly in the Swiss retail market, each having broadly similar numbers of employees and annual revenue. Each one owns banks, housewares stores, hardware stores, and various other businesses in addition to their core grocery stores.

Indeed, I think Migros’ own chocolate brand (Frey) is outstanding, and many Swiss feel the same way. It’s what I bring to people as gifts, being both cheaper and IMHO better than Lindt.

MediaMarkt is a German company.

[twist3r]

Ok, I see now that welectron now has KA3005P+ model, both with 'safety terminals' and 'screw terminals'.

So, I want to go with screw terminals. Since I'm a newbie, and have no clue, can someone tell me this:

welectron also offers me to buy couple different 'measuring' leads, or 'Hirschmann PRUEF 2 Test Probe Pair', 'Hirschmann AK 2 S Alligator Clip Pair', 'Hirschmann KLEPS Clamp-Type Test Probe Pair'.
I'm lost, so... what would you guys suggest me to order as 'extra' to come along with the bench supply? My main goal is to be able to use voltage injection when I try to find a short.
And...I'm not sure if all of these come with 'cable' attached so I can just 'stick it' into the 'screw terminal' or I would have to buy the cables myself. Can someone give me some advice here, plase?

Also, I asked them about calculating Swiss VAT, and they said that they can't do that. They can only ship it without EU VAT, and once the package arrive in Switzerland, my family members would have to pay Swiss VAt + some fee for the service. They sais that price for service should be around 10 euros, but I'm not so sure it would be that 'low'.

[nightfire]

As the screw terminal type of power supply does not take insulated cables, you should buy a pair of non-insulated CAT I cables. Also crocodile clips in good quality are always useful, albeit I personally prefer the dolphin type form of other manufacturers...
If you want to inject voltage to devices etc. to find shorts, depending on the possibilities to attach the power supply the KLEPS hooks are not bad.

But: In which situations do you need to inject that amount of voltage with the corresponding currents to find shorts?
In appliance testing, VDE standards mandate a minimum of 200 mA to check a PE for continuity, which usually means a very low voltage...

[tooki]

Ok, I see now that welectron now has KA3005P+ model, both with 'safety terminals' and 'screw terminals'.

For what it’s worth, I have the screw terminal version, and I’d much prefer the safety jack version. I basically never use the screw connection, whereas being able to plug in any banana plug, such as multimeter probes, is super useful. (I use adapters to get around this.)

[ebastler]

welectron also offers me to buy couple different 'measuring' leads, or 'Hirschmann PRUEF 2 Test Probe Pair', 'Hirschmann AK 2 S Alligator Clip Pair', 'Hirschmann KLEPS Clamp-Type Test Probe Pair'. I'm lost, so... what would you guys suggest me to order as 'extra' to come along with the bench supply? My main goal is to be able to use voltage injection when I try to find a short.

And...I'm not sure if all of these come with 'cable' attached so I can just 'stick it' into the 'screw terminal' or I would have to buy the cables myself. Can someone give me some advice here, plase?

None of the three items you list will include cables, so you need to order those separately. All cables shown in the accessory box seem to come with regular (non-shrouded) plugs, so they will fit your screw terminals. Just choose a length which makes sense on your bench.

Regarding the probe tips and clips: I don't think I have ever used pointed tips with a power supply. Maybe they can be useful for temporary voltage injection, but even in that application I think you would want at least one permanent connection (to have at least one free hand to probe temperatures in whichever way you prefer). For clips, I prefer the "KLEPS" type over the alligator clips, since they tend to hold on tight and can reach into narrow spaces.

Just having seen tooki's reply, I can add that I am in the screw-terminal camp. I use the screw connection often, e.g. for cut-off USB cables or quick jury-rigged leads to a barrel plug or such. And I own hardly any safety banana plugs, since I only use them for extra-low voltage anyway. A matter of personal taste; it's nice that Korad still offers both connection types.

EDIT: Oh, and in a pinch you can unscrew the knurled nuts from the screw terminals and plug in a safety-shrouded plug directly. Although it can't be inserted very deeply, so yes, that's a bit of a kludge.

[twist3r]

@nightfire
Can you give me an example (or a link to) of an 'non-insulated CAT I cables' so I can check it out and see how that 'thing' looks like?
Also, what 'dolphin' clips?

As for voltage injection, I plan to use this power supply 'mostly' for voltage injection, but that doesn't mean I wont be using it for something else. (charging the battery, or maybe even giving power to some device that needs higher voltage). I was told that I should get 32v 5A (or 10A) bench power supply, but since I'm noob, most ppl said 30V 5A should be good enough.

Voltage injection would mostly be used on PC or laptop motherboards, or PC graphic cards. Voltage should be 0.8-1.0 v, but current will start small and raise up until I feel the heat (I don't have that heat 'scanner' camera (or whats the proper name for it), so I would test it by 'touch'.


@tooki
So, if I understood you, ... if I ever 'need' safety terminals connection I could use some kind of adapters to 'bridge it' from screw to safety terminals? (if 'yes', then can you share the photo of how that adapter looks like or... if you bought it... a link would be great)


@ebastler
For 'tree items that I listed' which you said that don't come with cables, and that I would have to buy them separately.... what would be the length of cables that you would pick. Is 1.5m ok length? Should those cables need to be 'special' or... could I make them on my own by using a 'used' scraped wires?



Ok, so...here is what I'm thinking:

I think I should order:
Hirschmann KLEPS 30 Clamp-Type Test Probe Pair https://www.welectron.com/Hirschmann-KLEPS-30-Clamp-Type-Test-Probe-Pair-Red-Black

One thing that I'm thinking about (but at the same time is confusing me is)...I asked the guys from welectron the same question that I asked here: 'what would they suggest me to buy along with this bench power supply' and their answer was: "We would recommend you Hirschmann MLN test leads and probes such as PRUEF 2:"

Now... for PRUEF 2 (https://www.welectron.com/Hirschmann-PRUEF-2-Test-Probe-Pair-Red-Black) I ...understand (I think). I would have to get my own wires and connect it with these (I guess its called) 'pointed' probes.

But...I don't understand why they suggested me 'Hirschmann MLN test leads' because... the picture shows that they are like 'banana plugs' for like multimeter or for...'safety terminals' version. https://www.welectron.com/Hirschmann-MLN-150-25-RS-Measuring-Lead-25mm-150m-Pair-Red-Black

So... any comments regarding these leads that gives me headache?

Thanks in advance guys!