KeysightCare; you now need a paid subscription to ask simple questions?

[jeremy]

Hi all,

I sent an email to Keysight about an omission in the specifications for the U2741A (it says that it supports measuring temperature from a 5k thermistor, but doesn't state the beta value for the thermistor). This is what I got in reply:

Keysight updated its technical support to a high value offering called KeysightCare. After May 1st you will need a KeysightCare technical support agreement for us to help resolve your technical support issues. Pre-sales support, forums and access to the Keysight website for self-help technical ‘how to’ articles and videos will always be available.

To learn more about KeysightCare and each support level’s Service Level Agreements (SLA), you can view the brochure, watch the portal demo Video or visit the website www.keysightcare.com

If you are already a KeysightCare customer, please register/log in to KeysightCare customer portal to view updates or add comments to your case. While there, you can also manage your KeysightCare Assets, read articles related to your instruments in the KeysightCare Knowledge Center and submit new cases.

They have offered to solve my problem for free once (which is actually their problem?) so that I can "experience the KeysightCare value", but this is a bit of a surprise for me. Does anyone have any experience with this program? Does this mean I need to pay money for a subscription to report firmware bugs, mistakes in manuals, or ask if certain measurements are supported, etc to Keysight now ? If so, I'm a bit bummed out that I have any Keysight equipment... this feels like a bit of a bait-and-switch. Also "pre-sales support...will always be available" makes me feel like they will be happy to sell you the product and then tell you to take a hike afterwards if anything goes wrong.

I had a look at their forum, but it seems like actual Keysight staff aren't active on there, so there wouldn't be anyone who could answer a question like the one I have which needs some form of inside knowledge.

Posting this message as both a warning to people who own or are looking at Keysight/Agilent/HP equipment (even the old stuff), and to hear if anyone has any experiences around this program.

Thanks,
Jeremy

[Kean]

To answer your thermistor question, I am pretty sure Keysight only offer one 5k thermistor product as standard, the E2308A.  That is listed in the U2741A datasheet as an optional accessory.

The only place I could find the beta specification when I went looking at some point in the past was in the 3446xA datasheets, which says "5 kΩ thermistor β= 3891; YSI 44007 or equivalent".  That datasheet specifies two thermistors as optional accessories - the 34308A kit, or the E2308A.  The 34308A kit has five 10k thermistors mostly intended for the 34970A, so not particularly relevant here.  Neither the E2308A or 34308A datsheets give this particular specification.

Also discussed in this post: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/hp-compatible-5kohm-thermistor-temperature-probe-home-made/

[perdrix]

Looks like Keysight are on the downward spiral to death. First they let the German legal team persuade them that they shouldn't sell to or support  real people (at least in Europe/UK), just corporate entities.   Now the accountants have come up with the wheeze of "we only provide support if you pay".   My quess is that before too long their *only* customers will be Fortune 100, and government institutions.

For sure and for certain, I won't be buying anything new from them now, nor will I be recommending them to anyone.

I may register a company so I can get my 3458A calibrated, but that's not yet decided.

David

[Trader]

I sent an email to Keysight about an omission in the specifications for the U2741A

US$ 78.22 for 2 degrees precision? better to buy from aliexpress.

[Berni]

This Keysight not working with individuals thing is starting to go a bit too far now.

Alright i understand that you might not sell all the spare parts to just anyone (even tho they used to do that, so why go back?) but not even answering a question about a datasheet spec clarification really shows a new level of "go fuck yourself" to the costumer.

They should realize that a lot of electronics hobbyists also work at engineering jobs where they might nag there boss for a shiny new piece of equipment here and there. If they act like this makes me tempted to recommend the rivaling test equipment brands. How do i know that they won't hit me in the face with the same KeysightCare bullshit the next time i need help with there equipment at my job. Pretty sure the company i work at does not have such an account, and if we do i have no idea who i would ask for the username and password.

[jeremy]

Alright i understand that you might not sell all the spare parts to just anyone (even tho they used to do that, so why go back?) but not even answering a question about a datasheet spec clarification really shows a new level of "go fuck yourself" to the costumer.

Perhaps this is related to the EU stuff? I am not familiar with European consumer law, but perhaps charging for some form of very basic support is not allowed ? If so, this change would require them to not roll their new program out if they sold to consumers. And keysight badly wants to increase recurring revenue (a la silicon valley) as it looks good for shareholders:

Code: [Select]

"It's an exciting time at Keysight as we leverage the strength of our foundation, bring breakthrough technologies to market and add software-centric solutions to address customer needs, while increasing our recurring revenue.
From: https://www.keysight.com/au/en/about/newsroom/news-releases/2020/keysight-technologies-hosts-2020-investor-day.html

[jeremy]

I had a further look at this, and have found some more alarming things here: https://www.keysight.com/au/en/assets/3121-1393/data-sheets/KeysightCare-Technical-Support.pdf

Software updates are only available through KeysightCare Software Support. A KeysightCare agreement may not be required for security fixes and bug fixes but they are included in all valid KeysightCare Software Support agreements. Keysight provides software release update notifications to customers for all KeysightCare entitled software.

(see attached image for a comparison matrix showing you what you don't get anymore without an agreement)

And for those hoping that you could get KeysightCare for free: https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20200909005764/en/Keysight-Technologies-Bolsters-Technical-Support-Services-in-Response-to-Growing-Customer-Demand-for-Test-and-Measurement-Expertise

KeysightCare delivers support in the test and measurement industry with fast committed response times for repair, calibration and technical support. KeysightCare is value priced compared to purchasing individual service offerings such as warranty, repair or calibration while adding significant value and project risk mitigation. Similarly, volume agreements for KeysightCare Technical Support for installed base coverage of departments, labs or sites are more economical compared to individual asset coverage.

More on strategy from the annual report: https://s22.q4cdn.com/444849635/files/doc_financials/2020/2020-Keysight-Annual-Report.pdf

Software and services are critical elements of our solution-centric strategy and differentiation and further strengthen the durability of our business model. Together they comprised one-third of total Keysight revenue for the year and are a key driver of the company’s growth in recent years. Recurring revenue increased from 18 percent of total revenue in FY19 to 21 percent in FY20.

[MadTux]

Lol that's hilarious, like "No thank you for buying from us, go fuck yourself from now on!"
Perfect way to ruin a company, but HPAK is in constant decline since the 1990s, just adds a few more nails for the coffin, until the Chinese take over basic test gear and Keysight falls back to research and lab/calibration/Josephson effect references/quantum computing stuff, similar to what happened to IBM.
Once the research is done, game over....

[2N3055]

Lol that's hilarious, like "No thank you for buying from us, go fuck yourself from now on!"
Perfect way to ruin a company, but HPAK is in constant decline since the 1990s, just adds a few more nails for the coffin, until the Chinese take over basic test gear and Keysight falls back to research and lab/calibration/Josephson effect references/quantum computing stuff, similar to what happened to IBM.
Once the research is done, game over....

That is not decline in their eyes, that is their actual corporate strategy...That is exactly what they presented to shareholders...

Western companies lately want to produce only high ROI products and give services, because by economists, that is considered most advanced type of industry.
Which leaves large sectors of industry and human lives uncovered and left to someone else to provide.

What is hilarious is that people are surprised by it, and that has been happening for 50+ years.  Many of the Fluke most innovative products came from EU lab in Netherlands that was Philips instrument division that got merged with Fluke. Yokogawa, Hioki, Sony manufactured instruments for likes of HP, Tek and LeCroy since ages. Later it moved to China, where entry level instruments were made, Rigol for Keysight (love lost), Siglent for LeCroy... etc etc. Keysight manufactures all bench instruments in Malasia..
Many products are USA products only by headquarters, for many many years.. Same in EU.

But until now, they kept pretending they are full service T&M company with full range of equipment and services.
Like IBM, they might even spinoff low end spectrum. To make parallel to IBM, they can spinoff Infiniivision from scope series to a brand name: Infiniivision scopes.  By "random name here you never heard before" company.
Like my desktop and laptop that have ThinkPad and ThinkCentre on them and all IBM design looks and fell, but there is nowhere to see Lenovo. And then after few years Lenovo appeared slowly... But still ThinkThisAndThat....

[Cerebus]

This all seems to be following the classic malaise of a publicly listed company from the late 20th century/early 21st century. You obsess over the things that sound good to accountants, MBAs and the stock market and quietly forget to listen to your customers; then one day you turn around and find that you don't have customers and are just part of an on-going exercise in finance capitalism that talks all the time about delivering shareholder value while actually delivering nothing of any value to anyone else.

I've seen this happen to several companies, of all sizes, and while they may stagger on for possibly a long time (e.g. IBM) they are essentially zombies from the moment they let the MBAs and financiers take over. Forming your strategies around what sounds good to 'the markets' rather than around what your customers care about is exactly the wrong thing to do. Becoming a company that exists for the core reason of just being a business for business sake, rather than one that exists to service a genuine need for products or services, is frankly pointless, a waste of time and energy. Once the financiers have bled all the capital and taxes advantages out of the husk left behind it'll just be discarded.

If you ever find yourself confronting a company that talks all the time about shareholders and not about customers - run away, don't buy from them, don't work for them, don't do anything that would tie your fate to theirs.

I give it five years before the Siglents and their kin eat Keysight's basic product market and start nibbling at the high end as well (I've got a 350 MHz, 8Gsps, 4 channel scope that cost only a little over £1000 from Rigol that might be a bit rough around the edges, but indicates that they are setting their sights higher and higher). Once the Chinese guys make their product offerings a little more refined and back them up with capable service then there's going to be no reason to look at the Keysights of this world for most of us. Keysight will keep trumpeting their service portfolio to 'the markets' while haemorrhaging actual engineering talent left, right and centre.

[Fgrir]

FWIW I just bought a new 34465A and it comes with "KeysightCare Technical Support" active throughout the term of the warranty. So at least the basic level of support is included for free, for a short while, if you buy new.

[Amaruk]

You can get the 3 thermistor coefficients quite easily on your own for a series of experiments. I did it for a 100K thermistor recently and it works great.

[jeremy]

If you really do work at Micron, you probably have a better chance of getting an answer out of keysight than we all do

They are pushing really hard on “solutions” rather than equipment, so maybe they have just pulled all of their firmware guys off working on these things internally and moved them to “solutions” for big customers.

[rf-loop]

"This facility would be nice to maintain as long as you stupid and poor customers don't interfere with our great superior top notch work."

 - World after Carly Fiorina destroyed Hewlett-Packard.

[tooki]

You can get the 3 thermistor coefficients quite easily on your own for a series of experiments. I did it for a 100K thermistor recently and it works great.

That’s really not the point of this thread.

[tv84]

I hadn't seen this thread before...

Come to think of it, maybe we could have some threads with paid subscription?     

[jjoonathan]

Price: Call Us 

[xrunner]

Keysight customer care - the more you pay the more we care!

[Bud]

The next iteration of the picture: one hand on the left, with the middle finger extended.

[arcitech]

I should have asked earlier today, when reporting what appeared to be clearly unintentional data exposure of other assets to my account, if I needed a Keysight Care subscription to let them know about a potentially major problem of their platform security.

[dxl]

The next iteration of the picture: one hand on the left, with the middle finger extended.

Well, it's there attempt to increase profits. In the 90ies, if you wanted decent test equipment, there was not much around these big companies like HP, Tektronix and others. But nowadays, a ~1000EUR Hantek scope is good enough for 97% of the people. The only people left buying from them are companies who are in the high end business or need them for certifying things. But that is only a very niche market and development costs for Keysight and others are high. So i don't think they earn much money with it.

I'm always surprised that companies like Keysight, Tektronix & Co still exist.

[Zenith]

Well, it's there attempt to increase profits. In the 90ies, if you wanted decent test equipment, there was not much around these big companies like HP, Tektronix and others. But nowadays, a ~1000EUR Hantek scope is good enough for 97% of the people. The only people left buying from them are companies who are in the high end business or need them for certifying things. But that is only a very niche market and development costs for Keysight and others are high. So i don't think they earn much money with it.

I'm always surprised that companies like Keysight, Tektronix & Co still exist.

HP and Tek were always about the very top end. When the HP8640A came out in 1973, it was $4,200. You could buy a pretty good new car for that much. Their scopes were priced well above what hobbyists and small repair shops were going to pay. HP got out of analogue scopes in the early 80s.  HP and Tek concentrated on products other companies couldn't make. By the mid 80s there were a lot of companies making 20MHz solid state analogue scopes for $200 to $300 as well as better ones up to 100MHz. They were plenty good enough for most hobbyists, a lot of production line work and so on.

HP's strategy was to go further up the food chain rather than compete with someone in Taiwan making a 20MHz scope. It worked, but you have to wonder if it wasn't going eventually to run out of steam. Also there were cultural changes after Bill and Dave retired, and the company became more bureaucratic, less genuinely customer focused and a lot more interested in marketing and PR claptrap. They also ventured into commodity markets such as printers and PCs. They did very well with printers, but it's a high volume business and it creates a different outlook.

Another aspect to it may be going the general way of companies which were for decades innovative, created markets and were immensely successful, then they lost their way and fizzled out. RCA is a good example.

[Mechatrommer]

a child thread of https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-officially-lost-the-plot-dont-buy-if-youre-a-hobbyist/ ? i dont have to read all, now i know what to put last in the list... errr... i dont even can afford any of those brand name stuffs, so i guess i'm safe down here

[nomead]

I should have asked earlier today, when reporting what appeared to be clearly unintentional data exposure of other assets to my account, if I needed a Keysight Care subscription to let them know about a potentially major problem of their platform security.

They still seem to have issues with their database security. Couple years back when i was browsing my information i noticed lots of unfamiliar stuff. Just because my user info contained my work email address i got access to my employers asset inventory. When reporting the incident i could almost read between the lines how i was attacking Keysight.

[pascal_sweden]

KeySight KeyNoVision KeyBS