Author Topic: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters  (Read 254497 times)

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Offline HighVoltage

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I just got a notice from a German distributor, that this DIG option is only available at the time of ordering from Keysight. But they also said that a different, customer installable, DIG option, is available. WTF?

They are trying to figure it out and will let me know soon.
Go figure ... we are at the same spot as before.
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Offline HKJ

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Could it be that distributors are not allowed to enter the DIG options, they must buy the DMM from Keysight with installed option or the customer must do his own installation of the option.
 

Offline LA7SJA

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Newark seems to sell this Upgrade! and the same with distrelec.de And my local distributer confirmed that they sells this Upgrade but say it is not in stock from Keysight.

Johan-Fredrik
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Offline LaurentR

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The user manual gives a good summary of installable options. See this page:
http://rfmw.em.keysight.com/bihelpfiles/Truevolt/WebHelp/US/Content/__A_Preliminary%20Information/02%20-%20Models%20and%20Options.htm

34465A-DIG is a factory-installed option.
3446DIGU is the distributor- or end-customer-installed option.

All options are available both as factory-installed or end-user-installed, but have different option codes for each install type.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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I just received the order confirmation for the 3446DIGU user installable option.

There was no explanation, why this option comes in two versions.
Delivery time is estimated 4 to 5 weeks! Actual delivery time might be faster.
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Offline mike_kawasaki

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I just received the order confirmation for the 3446DIGU user installable option.

There was no explanation, why this option comes in two versions.
Delivery time is estimated 4 to 5 weeks! Actual delivery time might be faster.

I'm not working within that division, but can give you perspective that it is common to have two ordering options -- installed or as a separate line item.  This is really a factor of the supply chain set up and managing through distributors.  Know it isn't optimal, but a reality of managing different supply chain and delivery processes -- there's a different workflow depending on if ordered with instrument or as after-sale option.

However, agree we can make this more clear.  I'll give the message to the Product Marketing Engineer and see if we can improve the documentation/website.

Mike Kawasaki (Keysight)

b.t.w.  Just love reading these long discussion strings.  Glad to know there are lots of people with passion regarding electronics and/or test equipment.  Sometimes I feel like I'm unusual that find these topics interesting, when nobody understands what I do for a living... but the EEVblog community does!!  8)
 

Offline Coliban

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Quote from: mike_kawasaki
...
b.t.w.  Just love reading these long discussion strings.  Glad to know there are lots of people with passion regarding electronics and/or test equipment.  Sometimes I feel like I'm unusual that find these topics interesting, when nobody understands what I do for a living... but the EEVblog community does!!  8)

Yes, i used about 10% of the knowledge, we acquired at the studies (in electronics) in the past and now nearly nothing, so i like to have at least in my private sphere some devices and as a hobby, some exercises from my time at university... (even if i either don´t work very much with them  :-\  )
"If Lyfe were a Thing that Monie could buy -- the Poor could not live & the Rich would not die." Quote on a gravestone from a glove maker, Scotland, 17th century
 

Offline HKJ

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I just received the order confirmation for the 3446DIGU user installable option.

There was no explanation, why this option comes in two versions.
Delivery time is estimated 4 to 5 weeks! Actual delivery time might be faster.

Was it not supposed to be a software option with just a keycode, why does it take weeks? Is Keysight not ready with the software yet and need a new software upgrade before a keycode will work?
 

Offline HighVoltage

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I just received the order confirmation for the 3446DIGU user installable option.

There was no explanation, why this option comes in two versions.
Delivery time is estimated 4 to 5 weeks! Actual delivery time might be faster.

I'm not working within that division, but can give you perspective that it is common to have two ordering options -- installed or as a separate line item.  This is really a factor of the supply chain set up and managing through distributors.  Know it isn't optimal, but a reality of managing different supply chain and delivery processes -- there's a different workflow depending on if ordered with instrument or as after-sale option.

However, agree we can make this more clear.  I'll give the message to the Product Marketing Engineer and see if we can improve the documentation/website.

Mike Kawasaki (Keysight)

b.t.w.  Just love reading these long discussion strings.  Glad to know there are lots of people with passion regarding electronics and/or test equipment.  Sometimes I feel like I'm unusual that find these topics interesting, when nobody understands what I do for a living... but the EEVblog community does!!  8)
Mike,
It would be beneficial for the end user and Keysight distributors if this would be streamlined. The German keysight distributor needed 2 days to find out the details of this option. The MEM option for my 34470A was delivered within 24h by email.
Good to have someone from Keysight reading our comments.
Thanks!
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Offline HighVoltage

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Was it not supposed to be a software option with just a keycode, why does it take weeks? Is Keysight not ready with the software yet and need a new software upgrade before a keycode will work?

Yes, it is allegedly a software code.
But for some reasons it is listed as "hardware" for the distributor and it has the ridicules 4-5 weeks delivery time attached.
Time will tell, may be I am getting the code and certificate by email soon.
I will let you know, when I get it.
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Offline rosbuitre

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I just received the order confirmation for the 3446DIGU user installable option.

There was no explanation, why this option comes in two versions.
Delivery time is estimated 4 to 5 weeks! Actual delivery time might be faster.

I'm not working within that division, but can give you perspective that it is common to have two ordering options -- installed or as a separate line item.  This is really a factor of the supply chain set up and managing through distributors.  Know it isn't optimal, but a reality of managing different supply chain and delivery processes -- there's a different workflow depending on if ordered with instrument or as after-sale option.

However, agree we can make this more clear.  I'll give the message to the Product Marketing Engineer and see if we can improve the documentation/website.

Mike Kawasaki (Keysight)

b.t.w.  Just love reading these long discussion strings.  Glad to know there are lots of people with passion regarding electronics and/or test equipment.  Sometimes I feel like I'm unusual that find these topics interesting, when nobody understands what I do for a living... but the EEVblog community does!!  8)


 :-+
My instruments: DMM Keysight 34461A / Tektronix DMM916 / Fluke 12, Rigol DS1074Z, Deer DE-5000, Siglent SDG805 / SDP3303D, Dayton Dats2
 

Offline Smith

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Just received my new 34465A at work. I've upgraded the firmware and played with it for half an hour.

The good: It really feels like a quality unit, the display looks nice and crisp and is viewable from about every angle. Probes look and feel nice. Layout of the buttons seems easy to get used to, and the buttons feel nice. Measurements are fast and accurate. I like the bargraph, trendgraph and histrogram. Long USB cable is included.

The bad: The casing looks more like an industrial device rather than an engineering measurement device.  The menus are a real disaster. The grabbers for the probes look cheap and the "needle probes" are very blunt.

Overall I am very pleased with with the unit.
Trying is the first step towards failure
 

Offline dadler

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I agree - the included accessories are junk. The wire used is the same one hung low brand I received with some cheapies from eBay. I kinda wish they would just leave them out and I could put the few dollars towards other probes. I use my (excellent) Fluke probes.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Time will tell, may be I am getting the code and certificate by email soon.
I will let you know, when I get it.
No email so far....
Waiting a little longer.

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Offline bill21

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Just got my 34465A yesterday.  Curiously, it doesn't have the big orange "sell by" sticker on the outer box as previous posters have shown.  Did everyone else have such a sticker?

Looks like it was manufactured and calibrated near the end of February.  I would have liked to have a bit longer before the calibration certificate expires, but I guess it's not that big a deal since I'm not doing anything that requires a current cal certificate.  I was a little surprised to see the calibration count was in the 70s, but then I realised that the counter increments with each step in the calibration.

I still have to play around with it a bit, but so far I'm pretty happy with it.

I have experienced a problem though: I left the meter for a while on the trend chart screen as it measured temperature using a Fluke type K thermocouple probe.  When I cam back to it, I unplugged the probe and a USB stick that was plugged in the whole time.  I then found the meter to unresponsive to any button presses - I had to hold down the power button to reboot it.  I haven't been able to reproduce the problem.  I've since upgraded the firmware to 2.08.  Anyone else experience any freezes?
 

Offline HighVoltage

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I've since upgraded the firmware to 2.08.  Anyone else experience any freezes?

No, I have never experienced that problem.
FW v 2.08 works extremely well for me.

And the fast DIG option also arrived and works really well.
I will post some test results of the DIG option soon.

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Offline Sparky

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I will post some test results of the DIG option soon.

Looking forward to it!  I wonder if the DIG option will help increase sample rate when streaming measurements via USB to MATLAB?  With the 34461A I can stream 1000 samples/sec to MATLAB (I posted a script in the Agilent 34461A thread).  I'm curious to know if 34465A is faster with the DIG option when doing the same thing.
 

Offline dadler

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I've since upgraded the firmware to 2.08.  Anyone else experience any freezes?

No, I have never experienced that problem.
FW v 2.08 works extremely well for me.

And the fast DIG option also arrived and works really well.
I will post some test results of the DIG option soon.

Any updates on the DIG option?

It seems the DIG option is only really useful if you get the memory upgrade as well, 50k readings a second fills up fast when you have a 50k readings memory limit.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 07:30:33 pm by dadler »
 

Offline Sparky

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And the fast DIG option also arrived and works really well.
I will post some test results of the DIG option soon.
Any updates on the DIG option?
It seems the DIG option is only really useful if you get the memory upgrade as well, 50k readings a second fills up fast when you have a 50k readings memory limit.

I'm also looking forward to hearing more about the DIG option...hopefully HighVoltage will get a chance to write about it soon...

 

Offline janekivi

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #294 on: August 09, 2015, 04:23:03 pm »
34465A
Yes, probes are not sharp. Firmware is 2.09 now. Power cord is made in Austria - not Australia!
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #295 on: August 09, 2015, 07:40:28 pm »
Finally, here's my story, up to now..

I got my 34465A end of June, GPIB and DIG options.
Very nice instrument, compared to my 34401A from 1993.. especially the comfortable graphical interface and all these direct access / display features. Big win ! Also see other post about 2 very mighty digitizing measurements, I already did with this instrument (DCV and DCI).
 
Now to the bugs I very soon discovered.
The calibration date had been 3 weeks earlier, 2nd June, with very freshly calibrated Fluke 5720A.
As the instrument already had been produced in January, Keysights calibration policy required a 2nd calibration run before delivery, as 3 months had passed in between (No orange sticker any more!)

Normal calibration is exactly 76, would have been 152 for my instrument, but it came with 222!
Very odd already.

I always check new instruments on receipt.
Have to say, that I own a 3458A, and a Fluke 5442A, which both are uncertain to about 1ppm in DCV, on all DCV ranges .. otherwise I wouldn't have had the chance to find these bugs..

OK, I checked 100mV, 1V, 10V DCV. All three ranges were in accordance to my equipment within < 1ppm!
With each instrument, there's a "Certificate Of Calibration" and a verification Test Report on the backside, which contains the read-back of some of the just-before calibrated modes and ranges.

These DCV ranges were also spot-on during verification, as expected, i.e. less than 1ppm.
So were 10KOhm and other modes.

2nd odd thing now was, that the divide-by-hundred HV ranges, i.e. 100V, 500V and 1kV were all off by 6 .. 14ppm.
(Again, the 3458A and the 5442A both do exact 10V => 100V transfers , < 1ppm uncertainty, by auto-calibration!!)

That already caught my eye, as such an instrument should not drift so far off, in 3 weeks time, and without any possible voltage / power burden  in between, when all the lower DCV ranges were spot-on..
The 100:1 divider should also be stable, at least it should not drift by 16ppm.. that would bust the 90d limit as it would bust the 1yr. limit.

Anyhow, I now re-calibrated the HV ranges only, by applying 100V and 500V, as described in the manual.
After storing the cal constants, the instrument displayed exactly 100.00000V, 500.0000V and 1000.0000V, within 1ppm (the 34465A displays 7 digits, if using statistics math function), as expected, and as already checked during verification at Keysight.

Temperature is constant to a few tenths of °C in my lab, during short term measurements, by the way.

As soon as I triggered the ACAL function, the very same calibration offset as before was introduced, i.e +9ppm for 100V, +16ppm for 1kV range. I repeated that several times, but very obviously , the ACAL does not work correctly in the HV ranges. It irreversibly busts the calibration.
Specification is at least violated, as ACAL claims to improve the T.C. from 5ppm/K to 1ppm/K.
Also the 90d limit will be violated, if additional drifts occur.

Changing the inner temperature lead to even more crazy ACAL readings.
I strongly assume a firmware error . The exchange instrument, I received  a few days ago, is also spot on in the low DCV ranges, but off by around 10ppm on the HV ranges. (Already FW 2.09)

The 2nd bug is accessible to everybody, and confirmed already on both 34465A, and also on a 34470A.
(All TueVolt DMMs share the same FW 2.08 or 2.09)

If you apply a constant voltage on the HV ranges, like 100V on the 100V range, change the impedance setting from AUTO to 10MOhm.
The instrument is definitely fixed in the 10M divider mode, so there is absolutely no change in the hardware setting.
Anyhow, the reading will increase by +3ppm, reversibly.
Only explanation is a firmware bug also.

3rd bug is a mechanical one.
The lever of the front / rear switch is much too flexible. The plastics is too soft or too thin, so it bends by engaging the Shadow switch.
In my case, releasing the switch to front input again, did not feel fine, and the switch often was hooked.
The occurrence of this error depends on the spring force of the switch, I think.
Typical mechanical design fault.

Anybody else might also check these faults on his own instrument, even though the first fault is only evident to 34465A/34470A owners, and who were capable of checking 100V and 1kV calibration very stably / precisely.

I expect an analysis from Keysight, and hope for confirmation and repair of the assumed faulty firmware.

I have to say, that the reception of this assumed fault by Keysight is very good (starting with kind assistance by Mike Kawasaki), and the support extremely alert, as I already got another new instrument, and they wish to analyse the "defect" instrument in their development in Malaysia.

Frank

 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 05:53:44 am by Dr. Frank »
 

Offline saturation

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #296 on: August 10, 2015, 11:35:03 am »
Thanks Dr Frank, this issue would be difficult to catch without a higher accuracy reference. 

Thanks to you everyone will benefit.  Its good to hear Keysight is very responsive to questions, I had the same experience with the 1272a DMM bug when it was first introduced.

I found one range off spec on the 1272a but the Keysight calibration/adjustment method allows you to adjust one range only unlike Fluke DMMs, you need to calibrate the whole meter to do just one range.  I also had a 1252a with the same issue, but a different range.  I presume these were calibration errors only as the values have held true ever since they were adjusted years ago. 

Always good to break in new instruments and do a performance test!



Finally, here's my story, up to now..
...
Anybody else might also check these faults on his own instrument, even though the first fault is only evident to 34465A/34470A owners, and who were capable of checking 100V and 1kV calibration very stably / precisely.

I expect an analysis from Keysight, and hope for confirmation and repair of the assumed faulty firmware.

I have to say, that the reception of this assumed fault by Keysight is very good (starting with kind assistance by Mike Kawasaki), and the support extremely alert, as I already got another new instrument, and they wish to analyse the "defect" instrument in their development in Malaysia.

Frank

Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #297 on: August 10, 2015, 03:00:29 pm »
Keysight surfs the EEVBlog and will likely ping Dr. Frank in short order today.  :)
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Bug in Keysight's 34465A and 34470A
« Reply #298 on: October 12, 2015, 07:03:58 pm »
Hi,
I recently reported errors with my new 34465A, which I discussed intensively with the Keysight DMM support engineer, Jim Durr.

In the meantime, Keysight exchanged my instrument for analysis. The new instrument showed similar irregularities.

Jim Durr already confirmed, that the +3ppm shift between impedance AUTO and High setting is a real defect in the firmware, affecting all TrueVolt DMMs.

About the 2nd assumed error, caused by the ACAL function, I finally had a phone conference today, with Scott Stever, previous PM of the 3458A, and now also involved in the 34465A/470A development.

He explained to me the characteristics of the ACAL function.
(It's clear that he could not go into details, how this is realized in hardware.)

This function is able to make small corrections to the gain constants of volt and ohm modes, obviously by re-measuring the ratio factors.

It works very well in the 10V range, here the process is "precise", as he told me.

For the the HV range, as there is this big 100:1 attenuation, the function has some limitations in the repeatability of the ACAL function.
One of the limitations is caused by the noise level.
Obviously this ratio is determined in the fab (or during calibration) at the 100V level, output 1V, whereas during ACAL, the output is in the 100mV range or smaller, causing higher noise and lower repeatability of ACAL.

So the repeatability for the HV ACAL function is about 5..10ppm only, which is well inside the 90d specification limits, and also safely included in the 24h specification.

Keysight generally estimates the operation of the ACAL function being at around 1/5 of the corresponding 90d specification.

I also made a partial recalibration of the 100V and the 1kV ranges only, which is not applicable, as the ACAL relies on the complete calibration procedure, in the correct order.

Therefore, this observed irregularity is not an error, but a sign of limitation of the ACAL function.

It also can not be compared at all with the "real" ACAL of the 3458A, which relies on the ultra linear A/D converter (0,02ppm INL), and also is capable of calibrating all modes and ranges. So, my expectations maybe were too high, especially being experienced with the 3458A.


Scott Stever assured me, that the 34465A / 470A perform much better than their predecessors, and that the ACAL feature greatly improves the T.C. in all ranges, so that in summary, the specification is superior over the older instruments.

Anyhow, ACAL is not needed on daily basis, but only when the room temperature changes by more than about 5°C.


What I have seen so far, after nearly 3 months, the instrument is still spot on in the 10V and lower ranges, and also the deviation in the 100V / 1kV range against the Test Report of about 8ppm is constant.. each parameter is still well below the 24h limits.
The ACAL will always bring the reading to 1ppm of the initial ones, so it's performing much better than Scott Stever explained to me. Same goes for the Ohm ranges, which are still at 1ppm accuracy.


In retrospective, the people at Keysight really have done a great job on my issue.
They really have taken care of my concerns, even when I insisted on explanations about the ACAL peculiarity.
They gave a great support, including a new instrument!

A new FW for the +3ppm failure will be released in the next days / weeks, it's currently undergoing their tests.

Frank
 

Offline saturation

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #299 on: October 21, 2015, 02:54:17 pm »
Wow, very insightful and most helpful, Dr. Frank.  Thanks for all the work to bring this to light, a 65a or 70a is one of my next purchases so this was good to know.


Hi,
I recently reported errors with my new 34465A, which I discussed intensively with the Keysight DMM support engineer, Jim Durr.
...A new FW for the +3ppm failure will be released in the next days / weeks, it's currently undergoing their tests.

Frank

« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 02:55:49 pm by saturation »
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 


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