Keysight Scopmonth, Taxes when winning. Marketing-Bullshit?

[Wuerstchenhund]

Wow, this topic draws an amazing amount of hate.

As far as i see it, Sebastians options are rather limited, if he can't pay german tax.
1. He could decline the prize.
2. Keysight could deliver locally
3. Keysight might swap it to cheaper scope and he pay tax for that one.

True, but instead of discussing his options with Keysight, getting clued up about the facts or simply declining the scope he decided to publicly attack Keysight instead 

Selling is not really an option.
If he isn't a company he can't write a tax invoice. No company would buy his scope under this condition.

That's not true, I've myself sold quite a few very high priced technical items to businesses. If the price is attractive they don't really care about VAT, all what matters is the bottom line.

A private buyer is rather improbable. Keep in mind Germany does't really have a great private market for high prized scopes.
If he sells internationally he would get into tax-hell part two, now from the other side.

No, he wouldn't. Import taxes are the buyer's problem. If he sells to someone say the US then the buyer is responsible for paying customs and sales tax (where applicable).

In addition, he could easily sell EU wide.

In both cases he would have to pay additionally income tax for selling the scope.

Not necessarily, it depends on his overall tax circumstances. Any competent Steuerberater will gladly tell him how much he would have to pay.

If he registers a company for selling the scope he gets stuck with eu warranty law and ultimativly some form of tax again, for selling the scope.

There's no EU warranty law. There are EU regulations that member nations have to convert into national laws. I know that this particular point seems to be hard to get for many Germans, which is the reason why German ebay is full of silly disclaimers stating that EU law mandates they provide some warranty (and no, 'Gewaehrleistung' is not the same as 'Garantie').

As a company, distance selling (right to return) and Gewaehrleistung aren't an issue if you sell to another business, it's only an issue if you sell to a consumer (private buyer). But registering a company just for selling a scope would be silly.

[XynxNet]

[...]
There's no EU warranty law. There are EU regulations that member nations have to convert into national laws. I know that this particular point seems to be hard to get for many Germans, which is the reason why German ebay is full of silly disclaimers stating that EU law mandates they provide some warranty (and no, 'Gewaehrleistung' is not the same as 'Garantie').
[...]

I know, but it doesn't translate very well in a foreign language and a more precise reply in german would be rather pointless on an international forum...mh?

[Brumby]

I joined the contest to have a better scope,... . I would be happy with a free RigolMSO1104SZ with I2C&SPI decoding and the memory option. I know, not the best scope, but good enough for what I do at home.

Hi Sebastian,

Exactly what sort of deal are you looking for?

I'm sure Keysight would redirect your scope to the person of your choosing elsewhere, and liberate you from the need to pay taxes.

I don't think Keysight will do it.  From their terms and conditions:
No substitution, transfer, or assignment of the prize is permitted, except that Keysight reserves the right to substitute a prize of equivalent value in the event the offered prize is unavailable.

.... otherwise he could have it sent to me and I'd sell it to buy him his Rigol.

[nctnico]

Wow, this topic draws an amazing amount of hate.

As far as i see it, Sebastians options are rather limited, if he can't pay german tax.
1. He could decline the prize.
2. Keysight could deliver locally
3. Keysight might swap it to cheaper scope and he pay tax for that one.

True, but instead of discussing his options with Keysight, getting clued up about the facts or simply declining the scope he decided to publicly attack Keysight instead 

Ask yourself: would you be happy if you win a $1 million Rolls-Royce car for free but need to pay $200k in taxes to receive it? I think you'll go slightly mad as well 

[madires]

Look, no one I talked to was interested to pay 50%, or take it without an invoice from me,... I can't keep it, and I can't sell it either.

You, as a person without any business, may write an invoice. Please see https://www.lexoffice.de/lexikon/privatrechnungen/ for an example. Or you could go for a sale and purchase agreement which is also a proper document for accounting. Yes, it's that simple!

[madires]

Selling is not really an option.
If he isn't a company he can't write a tax invoice. No company would buy his scope under this condition.

Not for the gross list price. But with a 19% discount it doesn't matter anymore.That's simple accounting.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Wow, this topic draws an amazing amount of hate.

As far as i see it, Sebastians options are rather limited, if he can't pay german tax.
1. He could decline the prize.
2. Keysight could deliver locally
3. Keysight might swap it to cheaper scope and he pay tax for that one.

True, but instead of discussing his options with Keysight, getting clued up about the facts or simply declining the scope he decided to publicly attack Keysight instead 

Ask yourself: would you be happy if you win a $1 million Rolls-Royce car for free but need to pay $200k in taxes to receive it? I think you'll go slightly mad as well 

No, I wouldn't. I'd have made sure I have a committed buyer for that vehicle before accepting the win (i.e. one of the luxury car dealerships who might be willing to buy it),  or if I can't afford the taxes then simply decline. I certainly wouldn't blame the sweepstake organizer for giving me the chance to basically make a $800k profit. In fact, I would probably ask myself why I even participated in the contest when I couldn't even afford to win.

[madires]

If he registers a company

Actually this isn't a bad idea but would take some effort to go to the registration office and get some information on what kind of company to register. If he gets the scope through his company then I he could sell it on more easely to a company and (in the long run) avoid having to pay the import taxes.

Sorry, but that would be a very bad idea. By registering an one-man business he could evade the import VAT but the profit of selling the freebie is taxed. He would also have a lot of fun with accounting and the tax office. As a private person he would have to pay the import VAT but no taxes on the profit. When selling the scope to a comapny his investment would be 19% import VAT, the loss of another 19% for being on par with the net price and some discount to make it an attractive bargain for the buyer. Still a good deal for him and the buyer.

[poorchava]

That's a bit of a bad news. When entering the contest there is a field for entering your preferred distributor. I generally thought that if I enter TME, who are based in Poland, Keysight will just arrange with TME for them to ship the prize to me and then they will get this sorted out between themselves.

Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.

[madires]

That's a bit of a bad news. When entering the contest there is a field for entering your preferred distributor. I generally thought that if I enter TME, who are based in Poland, Keysight will just arrange with TME for them to ship the prize to me and then they will get this sorted out between themselves.

Some employee of Keysight mentioned that they usually arrange to ship prizes via a local distrbutor. But in this case everything seems to be shipped from Malaysia. So you have to pay any import taxes and VAT (23% in your case). If you win and know someone in Germany you might be able save 4%

[mos6502]

If you win and know someone in Germany you might be able save 4%

If you want to go that route, Switzerland may be a better option, they only have 8% VAT.

OP, maybe go on vacation in Switzerland and have it sent there? 

[Christe4nM]

I was one of last year's benchvue sweepstakes winners. I won a 34461a dmm. Never had to pay anything. No idea where it shipped from though. And maybe the law in The Netherlands regarding prize values and taxes is different. I mean we are excluded from scope month as it is.

[madires]

If you win and know someone in Germany you might be able save 4%

If you want to go that route, Switzerland may be a better option, they only have 8% VAT.

Unfortunately Switzerland isn't part of the EU, i.e. you have to pay VAT when importing into the EU. Luxemburg has the lowest VAT in the EU (15%).

[mos6502]

Unfortunately Switzerland isn't part of the EU, i.e. you have to pay VAT when importing into the EU.

Only if they search your car at the border

[ProBang2]

Unfortunately Switzerland isn't part of the EU, i.e. you have to pay VAT when importing into the EU.

Only if they search your car at the border

In this case: If they find it in your car at the border, you have to pay much more then only the VAT...

[mos6502]

Unfortunately Switzerland isn't part of the EU, i.e. you have to pay VAT when importing into the EU.

Only if they search your car at the border

In this case: If they find it in your car at the border, you have to pay much more then only the VAT...

Of course, I was only kidding.

You put the scope in your backpack and sneak across the border near Schaffhausen.

-_-

[ebastler]

You put the scope in your backpack and sneak across the border near Schaffhausen.

Ah, finally someone comes up with a constructive solution! 
I am sure Sebastian will promptly inform Keysight that it is their moral obligation to carry the scope across the border that way, and deliver it to his dumpster. 

[SeanB]

When you go to Switserland to collect it you take a cheap scope with you, and simply transfer the serial number sticker to the new one, and put the other in the dumpster. Customs sees you come in with "machine, serial number xxxxxx" and when you leave ( at another border post of course) you leave with the same "machine, serial number xxxxxx".

[idpromnut]

Thankfully I don't need to make this kind of decision, as I'm in Quebec, Canada, where the rules for running a contest are completely absurd and no company with any smarts would deal with the hoops that have to be jumped to allow entrants from here.  So good luck to all those that have a chance!

[ebastler]

When you go to Switserland to collect it you take a cheap scope with you, and simply transfer the serial number sticker to the new one, and put the other in the dumpster. Customs sees you come in with "machine, serial number xxxxxx" and when you leave ( at another border post of course) you leave with the same "machine, serial number xxxxxx".

Yeah, sure. Or you could rent an armored car, put on fake license plates, and just smash through the border control post on the way back home with your scope... 

Come on, Sebastian's approach to this topic has been absurd enough. No need to try and top that.

[ericloewe]

When you go to Switserland to collect it you take a cheap scope with you, and simply transfer the serial number sticker to the new one, and put the other in the dumpster. Customs sees you come in with "machine, serial number xxxxxx" and when you leave ( at another border post of course) you leave with the same "machine, serial number xxxxxx".

Yeah, sure. Or you could rent an armored car, put on fake license plates, and just smash through the border control post on the way back home with your scope... 

Come on, Sebastian's approach to this topic has been absurd enough. No need to try and top that.

I dunno, at this point, asking "What's the craziest (most illegal) way of getting a scope into Germany?" might be the only way to save this trainwreck of a story.

I propose "Have Keysight throw it into a dumpster which has been secretly arranged to be flown over Germany, where it is then released with a parachute." Of course, the dumpster is conveniently full of bubble wrap, Styrofoam and assorted packaging materials.

You could also use a catapult. Bonus points for using an electromagnetic one.

[Addicted2AnalogTek]

Sebastian -

If you don't want to pay just under 4000Euro in taxes for the scope, but you want to receive it and sell i, why don't you contact a tax official in Germany and ask them about such an arrangement??   Governments always want tax money, so I'd imagine that they would allow you to either make payments on it, add it to your year-end taxes, or give you a certain amount of time to pay the taxes.

[nctnico]

Why Keysight BBQed that MSOX3024, burned it just for fun, rather than donating it, no idea.

I'm 100% sure it was an empty housing and maybe even a prototype (dummy) of the housing. No scopes where killed or hurt for that piece of film!

[rx8pilot]

I would agree.

Sent from my horrible mobile....

[rx8pilot]

Hello,

because of the „contract“, it wouldn't even be possible for me to donate it without financial risk. I thought they just ship a scope from the local Distributor(DataTec or Conrad), german law, no problems. But they handle it in the most complicated way possible, and within the last week they were not able to have someone call me from the US-Headquarter that can explain the exact details of the transaction and the implications(tax, costums,...).

I hope Keysight-Germany will call me on Monday. If I can't get it for free, I try to arrange that they make a donation to a school, I already picked a german school that I'd like to support. Keysight would even cut their tax by doing that, and the school would be able to get 17.800€ worth of equipment. If there is no benefit for me, I might be able to support good education. Why Keysight BBQed that MSOX3024, burned it just for fun, rather than donating it, no idea. Now they published "Scope-Karaoke".  [emoji14]alm:

Sebastian

If they sent it through a dealer, the dealer would have to pay VAT - why would they do that since they get nothing at all. Someone has to pay VAT at some point in the transaction. Since you are the recipient of a very valuable piece of equipment, YOU pay that part. Keysight's cost is COGS + a portion of the staff cost to run the contest. (COGS - cost of goods sold). They give away the sales value for only the COGS value. They are NOT giving away $500k in cash.

They are handling it totally proper and above board. Keysight offered a contest to give away scopes, not scopes and cash for taxes. If they gave away scopes AND paid the taxes, they would have to pay even more than the tax of the scope to cover the tax on the extra cash! FUCKING REDICULOUS!

I am biting my tongue right now. The words I am inclined to use are best left out of this - for now.



Sent from mobile device.... Keeping it short and mis-spelled