Keysight refusing warranty - DSOX3014A bought less than one month ago

[Brumby]

My 1st reaction as I read the OP's claim was that Keysight was at fault but...

In the end of the day, the deal was between the seller and the OP. The seller is responsible for guaranteeing the buyer is informed about who will be executing the warranty, and when did it start. It could be through the seller or directly with Keysight.

There is something which is more important...

And surely this must be covered in Brazilian's law.

... and that's it.

One thing is sure, Keysight can't be eternally responsible for a device that someone decides to keep in storage eternally. And I'm even not talking EOL.

The logic of that is clear, but if the laws involved define something different, then it may well be that the seemingly ridiculous is the way it will play out.

The correct solution, in this case, if for the seller to refund the buyer. Any warranty war should be between the seller and the manufacturer. If their relationship still holds, nice, it not, bad luck for the seller.

That is the easy answer for the manufacturer and the seller.  The purchaser is then disadvantaged compared to the position they expected to be in having shelled out a four digit sum.

[Muttley Snickers]

If people are going to make reference consumer laws in various countries then they should provide either a link to the relevant web pages or some other citation or evidence of said rule of law, otherwise their interpretation may be flawed and nothing more than hearsay.

[Brumby]

I'm not saying that Keysight is obligated to act - I'm just saying that the laws involved may require them to act.  Even as absurd as the situation appears on the surface (which I don't disagree with in the slightest), this could end up as being an edge case under the banner of the cost of doing business in this particular market.


We can speculate and argue all we like - but the only opinion that matters is the legal one in Brazil.

If people are going to make reference consumer laws in various countries then they should provide either a link to the relevant web pages or some other citation or evidence of said rule of law, otherwise their interpretation may be flawed and nothing more than hearsay.

Fair point.  That would (hopefully) help clarify the responsibilities of the parties involved.

[iMo]

According to the Brazil law:

Art. 3. A supplier is any physical person or corporate entity, of a public or private nature, domestic or foreign, as well as other involved in the activities of production, assembly, creation, construction, transformation, importing, exporting, distribution, or commercialization of products or services.

http://www.procon.rj.gov.br/procon/assets/arquivos/arquivos/CDC_Novembro_2014_Ingles.pdf

[BravoV]

To me, the OP's complaint is clearly valid.

Valid only the buyer acknowledges and understands the term set by the manufacturer, if the potential buyer doesn't agree, then do NOT buy, how hard is that ?

The buyer has an expectation under Brazilian law.  The manufacturer cannot dismiss their responsibility under Brazilian law for a product purchased in Brazil.   How hard is that?

Also the buyer is not under any circumstances forced or tricked to buy that product, and has many other options to buy other brands.

Irrelevant

Its like you "want" to buy a car that provides 'a lifetime support'  of free tyres and engine oil replacement as you wanted, doesn't mean the car manufacturer has the obligation to do that.

Completely irrelevant.  We are not talking about failure of consumables - we are talking about new out of the box.

Relationship in business trasaction (not scamming) works two ways, since the beginning of human civilization, despite what ever the law said, a simple basic logic and common sense.

"despite what ever the law said".  Seriously?

Aha .. bait taken. 

Please, don't just carpet bomb everything when every times a word "law" pops out.

Different countries has different laws, and some has weird and even beyond logic law.

So, are you saying , that you "sympathize" the OP if the Brazilian law stated that every transaction, the seller and the manufacturer are responsible for warranty, no matter how old the product, and its a major offense that is punishable by death penalty.

Yep, I know this sounds nasty, but there are laws like dead sentence if you're LGBT, so my example is not that bad. 

So will you support the petition to send Keysight's CEO to Brazil's court to face that ? 

Uphold the law above everything right ? Even common sense or simpler form, humanity.

[Mr. Scram]

To those who are pointing at the price, all I can say is - that is totally irrelevant.  Even so, $2,000 is not chicken feed!  Neither is the possibility that a self-cal will resolve the currently identified issue.  Even if this issue is sorted out, what happens if there is another problem - one that will require warranty action?

The point is a very simple one - an item was purchased as a new product, with the expectation of a warranty - and that warranty is not being honoured as expected under Brazilian law (this point must not be dismissed!!!).


To me, the OP's complaint is clearly valid.


Edit:  I'm not saying Keysight's response is unreasonable, but this could end up being the sort of issue where local law might demand they step up.

By OP's own admission it's not even Brazilian law. Some judges have ruled in a way which may or may not be interpreted as such. According to OP it should, which isn't much of a surprise.

OP willingly ignored the party he bought the device from it seems because they can't provide him with another. That's obviously not a reason, other than an opportunistic one because he'll end up with no device. Instead he's opted to go after a party no part of the deal he opted to engage in. Not to mention he's so far refused to do a user cal, which all seems to suggest he's after a new Keysight branded unit at a discount.

[JDubU]

An article on the various types of manufacturer/reseller warranties:

https://www.globalsupplychainlawblog.com/legal-analysis/dont-just-pass-it-through-options-for-handling-warranties-down-the-supply-chain-2/

[Brumby]

"Bait taken"...?  Sounds more like an attempt to undermine what I posted.

But, anyway...

My ignorance of what Brazilian law actually states and the actual implementation of it through the judiciary means I am not proposing what should be done.  I was just pointing out what may possibly be the case - and that blanket statements made based on "what is only common sense" in other jurisdictions and cultures are even less compelling.

[rsjsouza]

Death penalty, LGBT, CEO being jailed... BravoV, take a chill pill, man!

I am with Brumby here. The law is not entirely clear in this aspect link, but the jurisprudence mentioned by the OP is sometimes applicable, regardless if you think it is reasonable or not. Also, if the item was legally purchased in good faith (regardless of the price paid) and there was a legal bonding at some point in time between the two companies, a case could be made that the manufacturer, by having representation in Brasil, would need to honor it just like they did with my NOS Agilent DMM here in the US (and no, I didn't think I was entitled to that, but this could be considered a double standard when comparing the two scenarios). Given it is a peripheral market, all that is left is the local law and the good faith of the parties involved.

[CDaniel]

Reading here I understand that the oscilloscope was sold to Nortron , probably the reason why the waranty expired .
I don't think a normal and official reseller would buy the equipment in stock , that is big big money ... so the problem is not that simple .
Usually the producer is still the owner of the equipment ... not the reseller/distributor , so when the stock is old would be recalled back , no NOS situations after many years would be possible .

[Mr. Scram]

Death penalty, LGBT, CEO being jailed... BravoV, take a chill pill, man!

I am with Brumby here. The law is not entirely clear in this aspect link, but the jurisprudence mentioned by the OP is sometimes applicable, regardless if you think it is reasonable or not. Also, if the item was legally purchased in good faith (regardless of the price paid) and there was a legal bonding at some point in time between the two companies, a case could be made that the manufacturer, by having representation in Brasil, would need to honor it just like they did with my NOS Agilent DMM here in the US (and no, I didn't think I was entitled to that, but this could be considered a double standard when comparing the two scenarios). Given it is a peripheral market, all that is left is the local law and the good faith of the parties involved.

The key word is probably "sometimes". Laymen and people with interests interpreting law can only go wrong. There are plenty of other factors to be discussed before ever touching the law, like OP refusing to take it up with the supplier and conveniently taking it up with the manufacturer or even doing a user calibration. Especially the latter shows he likely has zero intent of solving the actual issue and intended to score a brand new current day device for the discount price of one that's been on the shelf for years. Legal systems typically also include good faith, an obligation to examine and evaluate things and more, none of which seem applicable to OP. At this point it's not even clear there actually is a defect, which means this has potentially been a huge waste of everyone's time.

If I were a more malicious person I'd hope OP would get stuck with a defective device, because he'd get what he deserves. In reality I hope the user calibration fixes the issue and gets many years of use out of the actual device he purchased.

[bdunham7]

Reading here I understand that the oscilloscope was sold to Nortron , probably the reason why the waranty expired .
I don't think a normal and official reseller would buy the equipment in stock , that is big big money ... so the problem is not that simple .
Usually the producer is still the owner of the equipment ... not the reseller/distributor , so when the stock is old would be recalled back , no NOS situations after many years would be possible .

I really doubt that Keysight would put their equipment on consignment as you speculate.  It certainly isn't normal here, although I can't speak to Brazil or Romania.  Having been in business in the US, I can tell you that while some suppliers may extend credit terms, they don't retain title in the goods for many reasons and they almost never want their product to be returned.  Returning NOS product after the termination of an authorized dealer relationship is especially difficult and almost never happens unless there are very special circumstances. 

There's no big mystery here as to how warranties operate.  For most places that I'm aware of, the warranty starts as of the first retail purchase.  Most manufacturers of things don't even address the warranty issue until a claim is made, then they ask for proof of purchase.  Some, of course, register warranties and keep a record of each serial number.  In that case, they may substitute the manufacture date in their records until some subsequent event--warranty registration, notice of retail purchase, warranty claim, etc--happens. 

The question here is how long after the manufacture date can you register or update the start of the warranty period?  Most manufacturers don't address this--and I don't know in Keysight's case--but some do.  Solar equipment manufacturers commonly state the warranty as X years after the first retail installation (and often only to the first purchaser or first installation) but limited to X+A years after manufacture.  I think this was in response to games played by solar users and dealers and the overall high warranty rate in the early years of solar power.  So assuming HPAK (Agilent at the time) didn't address this, and further assuming Nortron was an authorized Agilent dealer at the time, the OP's desire to have the warranty made current is not necessarily ridiculous and very well may be supported by law. 

Legal questions aside, what is fair?  Yes, the OP got a "deal", but if I buy a car that has been on the dealers lot for a year, I still get a full warranty.  If I buy a current production NOS item from a normal retailer, I generally expect a factory warranty even if the box is dusty--or even open.  Does anyone disagree with that?  Ten years is a lot, but where would you draw the line?  Five?  Three?  Two?  Why?

In this case, Agilent sold the scope long ago, but never had to provide any warranty service.  Suppose it had an actual manufacturing defect.  Should they avoid having to fix it just because some time has gone by?  OTOH, what if the problem is due to corroded boards because it was stored in humid shed for 10 years.  For me, the fairness isn't so black and white--and it depends on what the problem is.  In this instance, I doubt Agilent put the scope in the box, cal cert and all, with the DC offset significantly off.  I also think the best solution for everyone--OP. Nortron and HPAK--would be to work something out instead of engaging in a huge pissing match. 

[NoisyBoy]

I can't believe we are spending so much time on what turns into a smear campaign.

The key point is if Norton is not a authorized Keysight distributor, it is no different from someone selling the scope out of trunk of his car that has been there for 8 years.  In the US, the majority of the manufacturer do not honor warranty for product sold outside of the official distributor channel, the seller is responsible for offering its own repair and warranty service, if any.  If you don't like it, don't buy it from the unauthorized channel and pay more to get it through the proper channel to get support.

It is unfair to bring this to this forum and make this appears to be a Keysight problem.

[rsjsouza]

Death penalty, LGBT, CEO being jailed... BravoV, take a chill pill, man!

I am with Brumby here. The law is not entirely clear in this aspect link, but the jurisprudence mentioned by the OP is sometimes applicable, regardless if you think it is reasonable or not. Also, if the item was legally purchased in good faith (regardless of the price paid) and there was a legal bonding at some point in time between the two companies, a case could be made that the manufacturer, by having representation in Brasil, would need to honor it just like they did with my NOS Agilent DMM here in the US (and no, I didn't think I was entitled to that, but this could be considered a double standard when comparing the two scenarios). Given it is a peripheral market, all that is left is the local law and the good faith of the parties involved.

The key word is probably "sometimes". Laymen and people with interests interpreting law can only go wrong. There are plenty of other factors to be discussed before ever touching the law,

Jurisprudence works that way there - even with previous decisions, mutatis mutandis nobody can really guarantee how a decision will go in the future - it always has to go through the process again. (This is different than English common law).

like OP refusing to take it up with the supplier and conveniently taking it up with the manufacturer or even doing a user calibration.

This is not USA y'know? When I grew up there, any problems with any equipment (even 0day issues) were never settled with the reseller/store, but only dealt with the manufacturer and its network of repair service centers (centros de assistência técnica), therefore it is not surprising to me that a buyer would take it to the manufacturer. Only somewhat recently (past two years or three) that I have seen inly a handful of stores with an exchange policy of 72 hours. (operative word: exchange, which is different than warranty).

Especially the latter shows he likely has zero intent of solving the actual issue and intended to score a brand new current day device for the discount price of one that's been on the shelf for years.

With that background, anyone that buys a product with a perceived 0day issue will certainly try to take up to the manufacturer. That is the regular practice there.

Also, the store is an official distributor of other brands (I verified Fluke), therefore it is possbile the OP acted in good faith and trusted the store in question.

Look, I have seen smart asses before, but being certain the person is malicious with only a handful of posts written in what is not one's mother language is quite low. From where I see this case, there are enough elemwnts to give it the benefit of the doubt. Obviously that can change depending on how this unrolls.

[GerryR]

...........It is unfair to bring this to this forum and make this appears to be a Keysight problem.

This may, or may not be a direct Keysight problem, but just for good customer relations, Keysight should have taken the unit back and or swapped it out.  Tektronix and HP (not Agilent or Keysight) have responded this way in the past (ah, the good old days).  The customer ships the unit back to the manufacturer, and they take care of the problem, and you don't get any bad press like this.  I doubt there are many cases like this that would impact Keysight's bottom line. I don't care what the "law" says.

[sokoloff]

...........It is unfair to bring this to this forum and make this appears to be a Keysight problem.

This may, or may not be a direct Keysight problem, but just for good customer relations, Keysight should have taken the unit back and or swapped it out.  Tektronix and HP (not Agilent or Keysight) have responded this way in the past (ah, the good old days).  The customer ships the unit back to the manufacturer, and they take care of the problem, and you don't get any bad press like this.  I doubt there are many cases like this that would impact Keysight's bottom line. I don't care what the "law" says.

If Norton is a current distributor for Keysight, I tend to agree with this position.

If Norton is not a current distributor for Keysight, I don't see Keysight as having that same obligation, legally, ethically, nor morally.

[rodpp]

I would like to thank all of you that contributed with your opinions.

Regarding the Nortron store where I have bought the scope, it is a 35 years old TE store in Brazil. Currently they are partners of some A grade TE companies in Brazil, like Tektronix, Fluke and Keithley.

In 2012 they were an Agilent partner too, although currently it seems that they are not anymore. Please see this waybackmachine snapshot:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120405053829/http://www.nortronne.com.br/

[snoopy]

I can't believe we are spending so much time on what turns into a smear campaign.

The key point is if Norton is not a authorized Keysight distributor, it is no different from someone selling the scope out of trunk of his car that has been there for 8 years.  In the US, the majority of the manufacturer do not honor warranty for product sold outside of the official distributor channel, the seller is responsible for offering its own repair and warranty service, if any.  If you don't like it, don't buy it from the unauthorized channel and pay more to get it through the proper channel to get support.

It is unfair to bring this to this forum and make this appears to be a Keysight problem.

Why ? Just because he is a hobbyist and doesn't have the clout of one of Keysight's major customers ?

He bought the scope in good faith that it is a new current model that is covered by the statutory warranty and then finds out that it is faulty and not fit for purpose. He may as well flushed the money down the toilet. If he wanted a fixerupper he could have easily bought one from ebay !

This sort of thing happens all to often unfortunately. Case in point. An aussie dude buys a new Jeep and has no end of problems with it and the dealers just fob him off time and time again. See what happens in the end

[TheSteve]

I can't believe we are spending so much time on what turns into a smear campaign.

The key point is if Norton is not a authorized Keysight distributor, it is no different from someone selling the scope out of trunk of his car that has been there for 8 years.  In the US, the majority of the manufacturer do not honor warranty for product sold outside of the official distributor channel, the seller is responsible for offering its own repair and warranty service, if any.  If you don't like it, don't buy it from the unauthorized channel and pay more to get it through the proper channel to get support.

It is unfair to bring this to this forum and make this appears to be a Keysight problem.

Why ? Just because he is a hobbyist and doesn't have the clout of one of Keysight's major customers ?

He bought the scope in good faith that it is a new current model that is covered by the statutory warranty and then finds out that it is faulty and not fit for purpose. He may as well flushed the money down the toilet. If he wanted a fixerupper he could have easily bought one from ebay !

This sort of thing happens all to often unfortunately. Case in point. An aussie dude buys a new Jeep and has no end of problems with it and the dealers just fob him off time and time again. See what happens in the end

Actually it seems unlikely the scope is faulty, it most likely just needs a user cal as it is 8 years old.

Also saying "new current model" is also a bit of stretch. It is Agilent branded, they switched to Keysight end of 2013/beginning of 2014.

btw, from what I recall back in 2011 the warranty on the scope would have only been 1 year, pretty sure it was later that Keysight changed to a 3 year warranty.

Lastly if they cleared the scope out years after they were no longer an Agilent dealer then it is hard to expect it would have a warranty - this may have even been one of the reasons it was sold at around half price.

At this point I would install the newest firmware (version 2.50 at this time). Perform a user cal and see how it performs. Assuming it runs fine then there is no issue, enjoy the great deal on a very nice scope, with any luck it will provide many years of great service and no warranty service will be needed anyway.

[NoisyBoy]

I agree with TheSteve, update the firmware, run a self-cal, if it is still off, then return it for a full refund. 

Sounds like this is a reputable dealer for other brands, I am surprised that they did not warn you it is an old stock, and that there will be no warranty because they are no longer a Keysight distributor.  If they indeed open the box, test the equipment before selling it, they clearly missed something in their "test".  If they are professional, they should either fix it at their own expense, or give you a full refund.  You can then shop from an authorized dealer if you want full warranty and support.   

[BravoV]

Death penalty, LGBT, CEO being jailed... BravoV, take a chill pill, man!

I know, that sound crazy, but its a fact there are crazy laws around the world -> Fresh example from 2019, my point is, it doesn't mean every manufacturer should obey such crazy "law" for the sake of upholding the word "law".

I'm out of here too, all of this is like buying an unopened old scope from a pawn shop, but still demand the manufacturer to support the warranty.

[snoopy]

Death penalty, LGBT, CEO being jailed... BravoV, take a chill pill, man!

I know, that sound crazy, but its a fact there are crazy laws around the world -> Fresh example from 2019, my point is, it doesn't mean every manufacturer should obey such crazy "law" for the sake of upholding the word "law".

I'm out of here too, all of this is like buying an unopened old scope from a pawn shop, but still demand the manufacturer to support the warranty.

But he didn't buy it from a pawn shop. And besides Keysight sell refurbished equipment with full warranties so what's the difference here ?

https://saving.em.keysight.com/used-equipment/products/en

[Fungus]

Yes, probably a User Cal could fix this. But as the offset is much worse than specified, I want it to be checked properly.

If you haven't done a self-cal yet then this is probably a non-issue.

PS: You're supposed to do self-cal before any important measurement.

[2N3055]

First things first, this is not really a topic for Test equipment  category.
It's about salesmen and buyers..

Second, discussion is going in wrong direction because not everybody read ALL posts from OP, it seems to me.

First he made bombastic title and wrote " My BRAND NEW DSOX3014A is defective and Keysight doesn't want to honor the warranty."

Then he mentions that scope is 8 years old. It is so old that, in fact, it has AGILENT on the front.

Reading through this it looks like OP was under impression that he bought BRAND NEW scope and was given 8 years old NOS equipment, and now nor vendor nor Keysight want to help him.

Several posts later he reveals that he has paid for the scope only 2000 USD (in a Brazil that is usually much more expensive than in USA) and that he knew it was NOS and and knew the price was so good because of that. Also vendor was, once upon a time, Agilent partner but it's not anymore, so they can't solve this trough official channels. But he expected full warranty.
Bad thing he didn't verify first.

While I sympathise with his situation, Keysight is not really bound to help him and give him warranty. It came from unofficial channel, and is NOS.

Honest thing is for a vendor to honor warranty and pay for repairs.
Which they don't want to do...

But hey, one can try then, maybe Keysight will do something about, because they are known to help sometimes if you ask nicely and if it's a nice story. They get some good will and publicity and they help someone... It's all good.

So now problems.
First this is a wrong way to ask. It's nice to be nice. You don't attack and then ask for help.

Second, scope might have some problem, but more likely it's a self cal thing.
So you try that first and then if that doesn't work, you ask for help.
But no, OP's first reaction was to try to send it for repair (which today means new mainboard or whatnot), because he is appalled that his "brand new" scope is not perfect as it should be. While he damn well knows it is NOS, and that because of that he paid half the price (maybe even less in Brazil) of the really new one.

It's a peculiar story...

It might be that he is fishing for things he didn't pay for.

Or it might be he's an nice honorable man that gave his last penny and now is desperate it all worked out so anticlimactically.

I don't know, don't know the man. I won't judge.

But there are few things that can be done.

1. Try Self cal. If it works, false alarm. All are happy. And then, as soon as possible put newest firmware on it before he loses FLASH. Those are THE original sinners..
2. If it's still bad after self cal, he can apologize to Keysight for attacking them and ask for help. Nicely. Maybe they can forfeit diagnostic fee. Maybe they will chose to honor warranty.
But this was better solved with PM to Daniel.
3. Can he purchase extended warranty? Usually you can, for comparatively little money. Again, work with Keysight.
4. If all fails, pay for the repair. In the end, you might still end up cheaper than buying a new one at full retail price...

But as a first step, change the title. They didn't refuse your warranty. You bought your scope in a way that didn't give you any warranty. Your beef is with vendor. And you attacked only people that can help you..

Flies, honey and vinegar...

[Brumby]

Again I say to people pointing to the price he paid ... that is irrelevant to the principle at the core of this issue.  But even looking at the sum involved, $2,000 isn't trivial.

The product was sold as new.  New equipment can be expected to have warranty.  Should the OP have checked before?  Maybe.  But if purchased as new, would you think that necessary?  This leans on the principle of "in good faith".