Keysight refusing warranty - DSOX3014A bought less than one month ago

[rsjsouza]

Keysight's current list of distributors in Brasil does not mention Nortron:
https://www.keysight.com/main/partnerfinder.jspx?N=1+187629+187535&pageMode=PF&cc=US&lc=eng&tmprop=TM

Therefore, I suspect that is the main reason why they are not honoring the warranty.

Having worked in Brasil for years and dealing with this scenario multiple times, I can understand Keysight's position in this matter. They can't possibly know how Nortron stored and handled the equipment after the purchase which, from their standpoint, it was to a final customer and not to a reseller. Official distributors are bound by contract to handle equipment and parts according to the manufacturer's specifications and any issues are resolved among them and the manufacturer - the customer is usually spared of these discussions. 

There is also the scenario where Nortron may have been an official distributor at a certain point in time for Agilent - I've seen this happen in the past with NOS units sold years after the break of contract, only for the customer to be left hanging with the expenses of a regular repair.

That said, I have purchased NOS units from a former distributor of Keysight (a store called Fry's electronics) and they not only honored the warranty but updated it to my purchase date. But you must consider it is here in the US, where these things are much easier to settle than in Brasil.

All in all, the suggestion of others to take upon Nortron is the best one - they have spare units, they must honor the mandatory 90-day warranty period and, most important of all, keep the communications flowing at a civil pace with them. The worst scenario you want is to take up to the small claims court (juizado de pequenas causas).

Good luck!

I may be mistaken, but I think this is either a current model or was just recently discontinued? $4K or so is a lot of money for a 100MHz DSO and I'd be expecting a minty-fresh one with the latest firmware and a cal cert that was at least not expired by the time I got it.

Thanks to Brazilian customs office.

Well, thanks to Brazilian tax legislation vultures. Test equipment can benefit from lower import taxes, but very few do that for a lower value item such as this one (when I worked there, somewhere around US$2,000.00 used to be a practical threshold to dive into the rabbit hole of bureaucracy).
The simplified taxation is 60% + sales tax + IPI + COFINS + PIS, which easily doubles the cost of the equipment.

[BravoV]

Nothing to see here.

Its clear, the op bought a really-really old stock, even its new unused from a local vendor, probably the vendor "was" Keysight/Agilent official distributor in the past.

Probably the purchase price also with heavy discounted price too, as I don't believe the OP didn't know what is the current new supported model that is available "officially" from Keysight. 

There is nothing to complain as Keysight is not responsible for this kind of deal.

Pretty sure, the OP had done his home work by visiting Keysight's official web site and found out the "official" representative in their country, which is of course, if the purchase was done thru that legit channel suggested by Keysight, it will be really-really expensive.

The only thing to be done here is to sit down with that local vendor on this problem, Keysight is free from any responsibility, this is just a typical example of "grey market" deal.

[rodpp]

Thanks for all valuable inputs.

Yes, the price I paid was discounted. I paid around USD2000 for it expecting an old stock item, but brand new with full warranty coverage.

In fact, here in Brazil it is very dificult to buy good quality TE. Normally you need to pay at least 2 times the US prices and wait about 2 months to receive the equipment.

As good quality (expensive) TE are not easy to sell here, it is common to see some items listed for years and not sell. Because that, sometimes some very good offers appears when stores must clear some stock items. It was more common when Farnell/Newark was operating here, as they had bigger inventories.

But always, if you do a legal purchasing with a valid invoice (Nota Fiscal) you are good. The invoice date is the warranty reference date. By law the period must be at least 90 days + the seller/manufactures offer (3 years in this case).

This is the first time that I have this kind of problem with a regular purchase. As I have the legal invoice, the brazilian law guaranties my warranty period. And both the seller and the manufactures are held responsible for it.

Irrespective if the item had been stored for one day or 10 years before the sale, if it was sold it must comply with the consumer law.

[BravoV]

So I guess in a good faith and good manner, I guess you should rename this topic title (by editing the 1st post's title), as its mislead readers.

Bottom line, Keysight is innocent, don't you agree ? 

[rodpp]

No, as I said above, by law it is (together with the seller) held responsible for all equipment (legally) sold with their brand.

[BravoV]

No wonder big name companies don't like to do business in Brazil.

Imagine this, an old car dealer in Brazil, sold you this new, never used, fully wrapped with it's original wrapping/container from factory at German, not even a single dust spotted, 100% (not 99%) flawless beauty that was made so many-many-many years ago ..



As its old enough, when the buyer tried to start the engine, it won't start as expected, so the buyer has the right to sue Mercedes Benz ?

Is this what are you going to say ? 

[rodpp]

No, the law is applicable only if it is a legal purchase in the brazilian territory.

There is some decisions in brazilian courts in that direction, that if you buy an item from a international brand that has operations in Brazil, that brand must honor the warranty here. But there is no law saying that explicit.

[rodpp]

Good point of that car.

But here in Brazil there are some principles that the judges follow. One of them is the reasonableness.

The DSOX3014A is advertised in the brazilian Keysight, as a current product.

That beautiful Mercedes Bens ended its production some decades ago.

[BravoV]

But here in Brazil there are some principles that the judges follow. One of them is the reasonableness.

The reason of this thread is you just want to ride this silly un-reasonable law to your own personal advantages by bad mouthing and blaming Keysight, not your local Brazilian vendor. Hoping that Keysight will support you for free.

In the essence, you just want cheap quality stuff, but want the same treatment as luxurious expensively priced item, your intention is clearly taken.

Good luck with your quest.

[maginnovision]

It's also fair to say... If you haven't run cal then you're just complaining because you bought an item you knew to be old and it exhibits a not surprising issue(dc offset). Run cal and stop complaining, I'm sure if the seller actually is reputable the scope is probably fine.

[rodpp]

Yes, the scope is fine.

Probably running an auto cal will solve this issue.

But after the Keysight response, I must clarify the warranty status of the scope.

[BravoV]

No, as I said above, by law it is (together with the seller) held responsible for all equipment (legally) sold with their brand.

So in Brazil I can just smuggle a scope from US and expect Brazilian KS to offer free warranty service?
This is actually true for KS, as it honors international warranty. But for a brand that doesn't honor international warranty, you are literally asking them to pay from their own pocket for other people's profit. That's not fair.

It obvious, saw this too many, this is just another opportunistic stunt, using social media such as this forum, as the op aware KS rep is active here, to get a free ride on latest KS scope model for a really cheap price.

As the scope is fine, prolly the plan since the beginning was buying a new but obsolete product and really cheap too, and then whine as its broken, with hope (opportunistic move) that KS will send a full replacement but with latest newer today's equivalent model, as the one bought and it's parts are no longer available,  total win.  Nice eh and worth a shot isn't it ? 

[ebclr]

Bought on Black Market, From illegal importers, Is this what happens, Next time try the official channels not the cheapest ones

Se fudeu.....

[rodpp]

It is not Black Market, neither illegal.

The scope is not obsolete, I do not want any replacement. There is no reason for that.

It was said above that probably an user cal will fix the DC offset problem.


I do not want anything free, I paid for the scope including all the tax.

According with the law here, I must be covered by warranty. And the Keysight refused that. If it is normal in other countries, ok, here it is not.

After sugestions in this thread I already sent a e-mail to the seller too, to contact Keysight about this warranty case.

[sleemanj]

Good grief.  Your beef is with the place you bought it from.

Put it back in the box and take it to the place you bought it from, put it on the counter and say "I bought this recently, it is faulty, repair, replace or refund the choice is yours".

If the vendor has any smarts they will take it out the back, run the cal, and put it back in the box for you.

The manufacturer, especially who is outside of your country, is not bound to warranty things for however long it takes them sitting in some third party parallel importer's warehouse, but it's entirely reasonable for you to hold the vendor you bought it from responsible and make it THEIR problem to fix.

You say they are a respected TE vendor, well they can't be very respectable if they are not helping you.

[BravoV]

You say they are a respected TE vendor, well they can't be very respectable if they are not helping you.

The OP ain't noob, the point is keep hammering KS until it "yields" something, nothing to loose and no risk at all, apart from tainted reputation here with an anonymous id. No big deal, worst thing to come, just re-register with a new id. 

[rodpp]

I contacted the seller (Nortron) before Keysight. They do not have a replacement available, only a 2 channel scope. Then I said to them that I would contact Keysight to repair it, expecting the warranty coverage.

Today Keysight said that the warranty is expired, because it was sold to Nortron in 2011. So in Keysight understandment, when they sold it to Nortron the warranty conter started. There are two possibilites here:

1- If Nortron bought it as an end user, Keysight is correct and I am not the first owner of the scope. It is a second hand and I was cheated by Nortron;

2- But if Nortron bought it as a reseller, I am the first owner and in fact I bought a brand new unit.


I sent another email to the seller and will wait an answer.

[rodpp]

I do not returned the scope because it is the better option that I have here.

I do not have the money to buy a USD4K scope. If I had that money to spend in a scope I would not buy this DSOX3014A, but at least the T version or other model.

The DSO3014A isn't a USD4K goods...

For my use it is more than enough, indeed.

[rodpp]

In fact I do not need anything, it is my hobby. But I really want this 3000 series, since a long time ago.

I do have a lot of equipments that I do not need too, but I like to have. It is not rational.

Regarding the 1000 series it would be an option, but to me the 3000 series that is not the latest generation (less expensive, A and not T) is a much better option if available.


As a reference, Keysight has a running offer of 25% OFF in scopes (https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=3015601&nid=-11143.0.00&id=3015601).

If we consider that the Newark full price of the T version is USD3660, the DSOX3014T final price will be USD2745.

So USD2000 for the A version is not that cheap as sugested above that I want free scope, free service, whatever....

[HighVoltage]

From my experience, Keysight has the best customer service of all TE manufactures. They have taken care of all problems that I had with new equipment.

But in your case it is totally reasonable for Keysight to refuse the warranty service. Take it on with your local distributor.

How much did you really pay for this scope?

[Brumby]

To those who are pointing at the price, all I can say is - that is totally irrelevant.  Even so, $2,000 is not chicken feed!  Neither is the possibility that a self-cal will resolve the currently identified issue.  Even if this issue is sorted out, what happens if there is another problem - one that will require warranty action?

The point is a very simple one - an item was purchased as a new product, with the expectation of a warranty - and that warranty is not being honoured as expected under Brazilian law (this point must not be dismissed!!!).


To me, the OP's complaint is clearly valid.


Edit:  I'm not saying Keysight's response is unreasonable, but this could end up being the sort of issue where local law might demand they step up.

[BravoV]

To those who are pointing at the price, all I can say is - that is totally irrelevant.  Even so, $2,000 is not chicken feed!  Neither is the possibility that a self-cal will resolve the currently identified issue.  Even if this issue is sorted out, what happens if there is another problem - one that will require warranty action?

The point is a very simple one - an item was purchased as a new product, with the expectation of a warranty - and that warranty is not being honoured as expected under Brazilian law (this point must not be dismissed!!!).


To me, the OP's complaint is clearly valid.

Valid only the buyer acknowledges and understands the term set by the manufacturer, if the potential buyer doesn't agree, then do NOT buy, how hard is that ?

Also the buyer is not under any circumstances forced or tricked to buy that product, and has many other options to buy other brands.

Its like you "want" to buy a car that provides 'a lifetime support'  of free tyres and engine oil replacement as you wanted, doesn't mean the car manufacturer has the obligation to do that.

Relationship in business trasaction (not scamming) works two ways, since the beginning of human civilization, despite what ever the law said, a simple basic logic and common sense.

[paschulke2]

I bought a DSO-X2024A from Farnell Germany. Purchase date was September 22, 2015. According to Keysight's warranty status page warranty for this scope started April 29, 2015 (I lost 5 month of warranty). So it seems that it's normal for Keysight to start the warranty period when they sell the instrument to the distributor. I am quite sure (but can not check now) that Tektronix does this as well.

This is certainly surprising to the customer and I am not sure whether I think it is completely fair …

[tv84]

My 1st reaction as I read the OP's claim was that Keysight was at fault but...

In the end of the day, the deal was between the seller and the OP. The seller is responsible for guaranteeing the buyer is informed about who will be executing the warranty, and when did it start. It could be through the seller or directly with Keysight.

And surely this must be covered in Brazilian's law.

One thing is sure, Keysight can't be eternally responsible for a device that someone decides to keep in storage eternally. And I'm even not talking EOL.

The correct solution, in this case, if for the seller to refund the buyer. Any warranty war should be between the seller and the manufacturer. If their relationship still holds, nice, it not, bad luck for the seller.

[Brumby]

To me, the OP's complaint is clearly valid.

Valid only the buyer acknowledges and understands the term set by the manufacturer, if the potential buyer doesn't agree, then do NOT buy, how hard is that ?

The buyer has an expectation under Brazilian law.  The manufacturer cannot dismiss their responsibility under Brazilian law for a product purchased in Brazil.   How hard is that?

Also the buyer is not under any circumstances forced or tricked to buy that product, and has many other options to buy other brands.

Irrelevant

Its like you "want" to buy a car that provides 'a lifetime support'  of free tyres and engine oil replacement as you wanted, doesn't mean the car manufacturer has the obligation to do that.

Completely irrelevant.  We are not talking about failure of consumables - we are talking about new out of the box.

Relationship in business trasaction (not scamming) works two ways, since the beginning of human civilization, despite what ever the law said, a simple basic logic and common sense.

"despite what ever the law said".  Seriously?