Keysight refusing warranty - DSOX3014A bought less than one month ago

[Brumby]

HOWEVER, even if a self-cal/firmware update fixes the observed issue at this point in time - there is still one problem that is NOT resolved - and that is the warranty situation should a real problem arise in the future.


For what it's worth, in this situation, what I would think is fair is for Nortron to wear the responsibility for warranty, paying Keysight for any necessary repairs, should it need manufacturer attention.  This takes the pressure off the purchaser and Nortron can just hope the unit survives the warranty period.  With the current situation, it would seem Nortron would have the expertise to do the self-cal and maybe a firmware update for only in-house labour cost - and if that fixes things for now, then they will be crossing their fingers until the warranty period has ended.

As much as this might seem a reasonable course of action, there might be some element of the legal environment - that Keysight has had to accept in order to have a presence in that market - which may require their involvement.  This MAY be a thing or it may NOT - I just don't know.

[sokoloff]

Again I say to people pointing to the price he paid ... that is irrelevant to the principle at the core of this issue.  But even looking at the sum involved, $2,000 isn't trivial.

The product was sold as new.  New equipment can be expected to have warranty.  Should the OP have checked before?  Maybe.  But if purchased as new, would you think that necessary?  This leans on the principle of "in good faith".

The warranty has some (insurance-like) value to be sure. The reason many of us think the price paid (low due to it being NOS bought from a non-distributor) is relevant is because part of the value saved may be represented by the lack of warranty. It would be lovely if every bargain we found came with zero strings attached, but that's not always the case.

Suppose I bought a 3548A from an Ebay vendor who happens to have been an HP distributor in years past but isn't a current Keysight distributor. The vendor listed it as "new, in box" and what arrives is an opened box 3458A with an HP front panel and a 7 year lapsed calibration certificate. After an ACAL, it seems to work fine, but I'm pretty sure I don't have a Keysight warranty on it. If I paid $11K for that, I got ripped off. If I paid $6K for that, I got a good deal. If I paid $4K for it, I got a "you suck!" deal. Only difference between "ripped off" and "you suck!" is the price paid.

Even in the cases where I got a good deal, if I understood the device to be new A-stock, any recourse that I have to unwind the transaction is with the seller, not with Keysight.

Any "in good faith" argument is between the buyer and Norton; Keysight is not involved, IMO.

[BravoV]

Any "in good faith" argument is between the buyer and Norton; Keysight is not involved, IMO.

Some people strongly believe that when you have an expired canned/bottled food or drink, you can claim to the manufacturer for a fresh replacement for free, I guess some countries have this kind of law running.

If it is, just curious if dumpster diving is popular there, especially at the supermarket's garbage/trash.

[Brumby]

Some people strongly believe that when you have an expired canned/bottled food or drink, you can claim to the manufacturer for a fresh replacement for free...

You really need to work on your examples.

[BravoV]

Some people strongly believe that when you have an expired canned/bottled food or drink, you can claim to the manufacturer for a fresh replacement for free...

You really need to work on your examples.

Yeah, an expired canned food surely is different from an new old stock, new in box oscilloscope.

I get it, the words of "in good faith" of your version, will have different treatment on a dumpster dived ... err ... bought canned food from a supermarket, which already expired (pretend you missed checking the date) .. vs .. a NIB NOS oscilloscope, right.

If Dave could find an eBay deal and scored a really cheap NIB and NOS "CRT" oscilloscope, and unfortunately it has rotten capacitors in it, and whine in a video that the scope manufacturer denies any responsibility to support it, I guess you must be really happy to stand on Dave's side at such video, aren't you ?

No more, I get it, point taken.

[Mr. Scram]

HOWEVER, even if a self-cal/firmware update fixes the observed issue at this point in time - there is still one problem that is NOT resolved - and that is the warranty situation should a real problem arise in the future.


For what it's worth, in this situation, what I would think is fair is for Nortron to wear the responsibility for warranty, paying Keysight for any necessary repairs, should it need manufacturer attention.  This takes the pressure off the purchaser and Nortron can just hope the unit survives the warranty period.  With the current situation, it would seem Nortron would have the expertise to do the self-cal and maybe a firmware update for only in-house labour cost - and if that fixes things for now, then they will be crossing their fingers until the warranty period has ended.

As much as this might seem a reasonable course of action, there might be some element of the legal environment - that Keysight has had to accept in order to have a presence in that market - which may require their involvement.  This MAY be a thing or it may NOT - I just don't know.

Why would you say there is no warranty? There is through Nortron. It should be noted that some countries allow for the sale of equipment without warranty in some circumstances, typically at a healthy discount.

[snoopy]

Some people strongly believe that when you have an expired canned/bottled food or drink, you can claim to the manufacturer for a fresh replacement for free...

You really need to work on your examples.

Yeah, an expired canned food surely is different from an new old stock, new in box oscilloscope.

I get it, the words of "in good faith" of your version, will have different treatment on a dumpster dived ... err ... bought canned food from a supermarket, which already expired (pretend you missed checking the date) .. vs .. a NIB NOS oscilloscope, right.

If Dave could find an eBay deal and scored a really cheap NIB and NOS "CRT" oscilloscope, and unfortunately it has rotten capacitors in it, and whine in a video that the scope manufacturer denies any responsibility to support it, I guess you must be really happy to stand on Dave's side at such video, aren't you ?

No more, I get it, point taken.

But he didn't buy it from ebay he bought it from a dealer who probably told him the warranty was still valid from the date of purchase !

[Muttley Snickers]

But he didn't buy it from ebay he bought it from a dealer who probably told him the warranty was still valid from the date of purchase !

Speculation won't help at all, in fact you don't know what transpired in relation to this transaction, in fact none of us know other than what the OP has chosen to provide. 

[snoopy]

But he didn't buy it from ebay he bought it from a dealer who probably told him the warranty was still valid from the date of purchase !

Speculation won't help at all, in fact you don't know what transpired in relation to this transaction, in fact none of us know other than what the OP has chosen to provide.

No I don't so lets see the receipt which would add credibility to the orignal story

Plenty of speculation against the OP btw !

[Fungus]

Plenty of speculation against the OP btw !

I think he just needs to push the "self-cal" button.

[GerryR]

4 pages of this, so far.  Just a good-faith gesture by Keysight, or the company that sold it, could have avoided all this negative press for all concerned!  Like I said, "Ah, the good old days," when customer satisfaction and a companies reputation meant more than profit.

[TK]

The 3000A series scope requires a calibration cable made of some equal length BNC - BNC cables with some BNC T to bring the calibration signal from the back of the scope to all 4 inputs

[snoopy]

4 pages of this, so far.  Just a good-faith gesture by Keysight, or the company that sold it, could have avoided all this negative press for all concerned!  Like I said, "Ah, the good old days," when customer satisfaction and a companies reputation meant more than profit.

Yeh good point. Why doesn't the dude from Keysight who frequents this forum help out by offering some suggestions the OP could try ? Like others have said it could just be a simple self cal.

[Fungus]

Yeh good point. Why doesn't the dude from Keysight who frequents this forum help out by offering some suggestions the OP could try ? Like others have said it could just be a simple self cal.

It happened over the weekend, maybe he hasn't checked in yet.

If the 'scope was manufactured eleven years ago and shows up on the Keysight database as "warranty expired" then the problem seems to be with the distributor.

[Mr. Scram]

4 pages of this, so far.  Just a good-faith gesture by Keysight, or the company that sold it, could have avoided all this negative press for all concerned!  Like I said, "Ah, the good old days," when customer satisfaction and a companies reputation meant more than profit.

There's no "negative press", just someone who gambled and seems to have lost. Let's not make this into more than a guy refusing to do a self calibration.

[james_s]

No wonder big name companies don't like to do business in Brazil.

Imagine this, an old car dealer in Brazil, sold you this new, never used, fully wrapped with it's original wrapping/container from factory at German, not even a single dust spotted, 100% (not 99%) flawless beauty that was made so many-many-many years ago ..



As its old enough, when the buyer tried to start the engine, it won't start as expected, so the buyer has the right to sue Mercedes Benz ?

Is this what are you going to say ? 

Sure, if it was truly never used then I think it's reasonable to expect the warranty to be valid unless it was specifically stated to be as-is at the time of purchase. I mean look at it this way, how often is something like that going to come up? The number of new old stock items dwindles all the time and providing warranty support for them is just a cost of doing business. For a car it's a pretty safe bet, if somebody really found a NOS car like that the manufacture could do well by honoring the warranty, look at all the free advertising and news articles they would get, "car manufacture honors warranty on 75 year old car!" The cost of fully servicing the car would be peanuts next to the cost of running a television commercial.

[Mr. Scram]

It seems unlikely the cost of dealing with dried out stock is worth the media attention that one unique find people care about yields. It seems rather unreasonable too. Nobody is going to care about a 40 year old power supply and it'll definitely have issues with capacitors or calibration batteries from being on the shelf that long.

[GerryR]

4 pages of this, so far.  Just a good-faith gesture by Keysight, or the company that sold it, could have avoided all this negative press for all concerned!  Like I said, "Ah, the good old days," when customer satisfaction and a companies reputation meant more than profit.

There's no "negative press", just someone who gambled and seems to have lost. Let's not make this into more than a guy refusing to do a self calibration.

After 4 pages of comments, it has already been made into more "than a guy refusing to do a self calibration."  I'm not taking anybodies side hear, just stating what would have been done in the past.  I'm 70 and have been dealing in the electronics fields for almost 50 years, and I have seen, and experienced, how customer "care' has faded, and with the so-called global market, how impersonal things have gotten.  JMO

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Just got pointed to this thread, I've been travelling and not as frequent on here as usual. Sorry for jumping in late.

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen anything like this before. We automatically add some time to warranties for items sold through distribution (like this one), but we definitely don't add 8 years. A normal time-in-stock for something like this is maybe 6 months, then it gets sold. I'd highly recommend working to get a refund and purchasing from an authorized distributor. From what I can tell, they are not an authorized distributor.

The list of authorized distributors can be found at: https://www.keysight.com/find/distributor

The alternative would be to try a self-cal or to get the distributor to cover the expense of an official calibration. The self-cal option is also likely to help, and you don't have to worry about the factory cal because that is quite expired.

[Mr. Scram]

After 4 pages of comments, it has already been made into more "than a guy refusing to do a self calibration."  I'm not taking anybodies side hear, just stating what would have been done in the past.  I'm 70 and have been dealing in the electronics fields for almost 50 years, and I have seen, and experienced, how customer "care' has faded, and with the so-called global market, how impersonal things have gotten.  JMO

I don't wholly disagree with that assessment, although it does reek a bit too much of a rosy view of the past and everything being better back then. It also reeks of blaming Keysight. It really still is about a guy refusing to do a self calibration. Without one we don't even know whether there actually is a faulty device. Without knowing that we don't even have to get into contacting Nortron. Let alone contacting Keysight if Nortron drops the ball somehow if and when OP has a faulty device and asks the seller to address the situation. So far we've seen OP being utterly unwilling to help the situation or himself and he only seems interested in shifting responsibility towards the one party he thinks may provide him with a brand new oscilloscope at a discount. I'd say it's time to put up or shut up, although it should be noted OP has been remarkably absent.

[rodpp]

I am not abscent. I am following this thread and reading all contributions.

Its not only a matter of Self Calibration. It probably will fix this issue, as I agreed before in this topic.

The problem is that Keysight is refusing the warranty, and as Daniel said above Keysight expect 6 months of stock, never 8 years as is my case.

So I bought the scope as brand new expecting full warranty (and this expectation is supported by Brazilian law), and it is not what I got.

If tomorrow the scope presents a more serious problem, I will need the warranty.

Today Nortron answered my email, asking to wait that my problem was escalated inside Nortron.

I will just ignore some comments saying that I want a new scope, free scope, free services, etc, it is not worth the time to reply, sorry.

[GerryR]

It's not a rosy view of the past; it's a past I have lived through.  The bigger companies, HP, Tektronix, Fluke, etc. would bend over backwards to make a customer happy.  And, I'm not blaming Keysight, but they have the ability, if nothing else, to have the 'scope sent in for an evaluation, and IMO at no charge, except shipping.  If misused or abused or whatever, then they can tell the customer, "sorry 'bout that, you bought an old lemon, but we can fix it for $XX or return it to you, or you can trade it in for $X on X model."  The most Norton can (should) do is offer a refund, unless it was specifically stated on the invoice, "old stock, no warranty."  (Even distributors sometimes offer a 30-60 day money back guaranty on new-old stock.)  Anyway, this is getting really old.     Have a great day!

[Mr. Scram]

It's not a rosy view of the past; it's a past I have lived through.  The bigger companies, HP, Tektronix, Fluke, etc. would bend over backwards to make a customer happy.  And, I'm not blaming Keysight, but they have the ability, if nothing else, to have the 'scope sent in for an evaluation, and IMO at no charge, except shipping.  If misused or abused or whatever, then they can tell the customer, "sorry 'bout that, you bought an old lemon, but we can fix it for $XX or return it to you, or you can trade it in for $X on X model."  The most Norton can (should) do is offer a refund, unless it was specifically stated on the invoice, "old stock, no warranty."  (Even distributors sometimes offer a 30-60 day money back guaranty on new-old stock.)  Anyway, this is getting really old.     Have a great day!

Having lived through something doesn't preclude rosy views at all. The mind is fickle and time does strange things to it. That things used to be better is so worn out it's a trope and a tired one at that. Not to mention that customers have become a little more mouthy nowadays and that bending over for each and every one of them no matter how unreasonable will mean going out of business. That won't help your actual customers either. Also consider much of the modern equipment is much more reliable and lower maintenance than much of the old stuff. OP bought a NOS scope at a hefty discount and refuses to do a basic self calibration on a device which is the better part of a decade out of factory calibration. He should probably consider helping himself before asking others to help him.

[zitt]

Tell Norton you want a full refund and you'll go buy a scope from a vendor who sells new stock with full warranty.
End of Story.

Seriously; you pay that kind of money - you should have full MFG warranty. Given the scope is already 8 years old; just return it as it's clear KS won't warranty the scope.

[GerryR]

Having lived through something doesn't preclude rosy views at all. The mind is fickle and time does strange things to it. That things used to be better is so worn out it's a trope and a tired one at that. Not to mention that customers have become a little more mouthy nowadays and that bending over for each and every one of them no matter how unreasonable will mean going out of business. That won't help your actual customers either. Also consider much of the modern equipment is much more reliable and lower maintenance than much of the old stuff. OP bought a NOS scope at a hefty discount and refuses to do a basic self calibration on a device which is the better part of a decade out of factory calibration. He should probably consider helping himself before asking others to help him.

The OP stated a couple of times that the self-cal wasn't the issue and that the Warranty is the important thing to him.  Not everyone can spend a couple of G's on something , have it fail and then go spend a couple more on something else.  You might take a chance on something for a really good price, if you know you can work around a failure.  Not everyone is in that kind of a financial position.  Warranties have saved my butt a couple of times, and that's not a rosy view talking.