Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist

[Martin72]

 No Sir...
Don´t merge it together.
If someone would spend 5000 for a bike, so he also could/would spend 5000 for measuring stuff...
It´s a matter where your personal preferences lies.
For example I know "dozens" of people who spend thousands of euros for simply wheelcaps, but they getting upset when I told them, I´ve bought lately a used CD-Player for 900 Bucks...

[2N3055]

A-Brands, B-Brands...C,D,E,F,G...

For brands like Tektronix, R&S, Lecroy, Keysight, Yokogawa you pay the name, the quality, for the deacdes of research they spent and finally for the service they offer.
And the prices are in spheres, no "normal" hobbyist could/would afford.

Because we´re talking about stuff hobbyists can afford.

Sorry, but the whole 'it is for hobby so it must be cheap' stance like some tend to cling to is idiotic. Go tell that to shops that sell 5k euro bicycles or audio gear that starts at 10k. Or how much does a gaming PC cost nowadays? I see gaming PCs that cost 10k euro just for the PC alone. Or how about metal working? There is a huge list of hobbies that cost several k euro just to buy some gear. No, things shouldn't be cheap because it is just for hobby. That is nonsense. Gear for hobby is worth what you are willing to spend on it.

You are not understanding the message here. Nobody is telling hobby users they shouldn't buy expensive things.
We are telling you that those that give so much money are minority on global scale. Most electronics hobby users will not buy a 5000€ scopes, and most bicycle riders won't buy 5000€ bicycles..
Many people in Croatia have 500-600 € monthly salaries.
I guarantee you they drive used cars that cost less than 5000€. Not bicycles for 5000€..
But they are allowed to have hobby too.. But they won't have so much money...

[Anthocyanina]

A-Brands, B-Brands...C,D,E,F,G...

For brands like Tektronix, R&S, Lecroy, Keysight, Yokogawa you pay the name, the quality, for the deacdes of research they spent and finally for the service they offer.
And the prices are in spheres, no "normal" hobbyist could/would afford.

Because we´re talking about stuff hobbyists can afford.

Sorry, but the whole 'it is for hobby so it must be cheap' stance like some tend to cling to is idiotic. Go tell that to shops that sell 5k euro bicycles or audio gear that starts at 10k. Or how much does a gaming PC cost nowadays? I see gaming PCs that cost 10k euro just for the PC alone. Or how about metal working? There is a huge list of hobbies that cost several k euro just to buy some gear. No, things shouldn't be cheap because it is just for hobby. That is nonsense. Gear for hobby is worth what you are willing to spend on it.

I think this is not about hobbyists not wanting to spend their money on the best there is, but fearing that if they do so, they'll be left on their own if they buy keysight. Do the other big brands offer customer support to individuals? very likely that hobbyists with lots of money would rather buy the best from brands that do reply to an customer support ticket, instead of a really good brand that will just sell you the thing but then you're completely on your own if any issues arise. I see rohde & schwarz have people on the forum, maybe they could comment on that?

[BillyO]

No, you just buy an A brand PSU which can deliver more current / voltage.

Then you have the "A" tell you go tug you dick when you have problems with it.  No.  Sorry.  I have a Tek scope and a Fluke DMM, but they are both long past their warranty dates anyway and I got them cheap, but that's as far as I will go.  Even if I needed the specs of your Keysight PS I'd not buy it.  If something goes badly wrong with it you end up with a $2700 brick.

[james_s]

Sorry, but the whole 'it is for hobby so it must be cheap' stance like some tend to cling to is idiotic. Go tell that to shops that sell 5k euro bicycles or audio gear that starts at 10k. Or how much does a gaming PC cost nowadays? I see gaming PCs that cost 10k euro just for the PC alone. Or how about metal working? There is a huge list of hobbies that cost several k euro just to buy some gear. No, things shouldn't be cheap because it is just for hobby. That is nonsense. Gear for hobby is worth what you are willing to spend on it.

Only the most serious hobbyists with either lots of disposable income, or a very limited range of hobbies allowing them to focus entirely on one thing spend that kind of money. I fly model airplanes and there are guys that spend thousands on beautiful scale models and at other clubs there are even some that spend tens of thousands on giant scale models or jets that have real miniature turbine engines. Those are the outliers though, the vast majority of us fly cheap foamies or self built balsa planes costing a few hundred bucks or less.

So yes, hobby gear should be cheap relative to what most companies are buying, those companies are using that gear to make money, hobbyists in general are not. Out of everyone I know, there is ONE serious audiophile that has spent tens of thousands on gear. Similarly I know ONE serious cyclist that has an expensive bicycle. I don't know any hobbyist that has a $12K A-brand scope or whatever, they all either have budget range Rigol, Siglent, etc or they have decades old A-brand stuff. On the flip side, I don't know of any large corporations that are using low end hobbyist scopes or 30 year old gear from ebay.

[nctnico]

Sorry, but the whole 'it is for hobby so it must be cheap' stance like some tend to cling to is idiotic. Go tell that to shops that sell 5k euro bicycles or audio gear that starts at 10k. Or how much does a gaming PC cost nowadays? I see gaming PCs that cost 10k euro just for the PC alone. Or how about metal working? There is a huge list of hobbies that cost several k euro just to buy some gear. No, things shouldn't be cheap because it is just for hobby. That is nonsense. Gear for hobby is worth what you are willing to spend on it.

Only the most serious hobbyists with either lots of disposable income, or a very limited range of hobbies allowing them to focus entirely on one thing spend that kind of money. I fly model airplanes and there are guys that spend thousands on beautiful scale models and at other clubs there are even some that spend tens of thousands on giant scale models or jets that have real miniature turbine engines. Those are the outliers though, the vast majority of us fly cheap foamies or self built balsa planes costing a few hundred bucks or less.

So yes, hobby gear should be cheap relative to what most companies are buying, those companies are using that gear to make money, hobbyists in general are not. Out of everyone I know, there is ONE serious audiophile that has spent tens of thousands on gear. Similarly I know ONE serious cyclist that has an expensive bicycle. I don't know any hobbyist that has a $12K A-brand scope or whatever, they all either have budget range Rigol, Siglent, etc or they have decades old A-brand stuff. On the flip side, I don't know of any large corporations that are using low end hobbyist scopes or 30 year old gear from ebay.

I suggest to start adding up the cost of a hobby like model airplanes. For sure you are not spending $12k at once but if you are into a hobby for a while, the cost start adding up to several $k easely. 50 here, 100 there, etc it adds up.

And it goes for other things as well. Recently I calculated that next year we'll have burned about 34k euro worth of gasoline in one of our cars (which is an efficient model when it came out; nothing fancy). But since filling up is a relatively small amount of money, you tend to forget about it but 'expensive' repairs feel like an awful lot of money because it is spend all at once. However, in the grand scheme of things a one time 1k euro repair is not really significant compared to the total costs.

[Someone]

On the flip side, I don't know of any large corporations that are using low end hobbyist scopes or 30 year old gear from ebay.

Various workplaces I know of use "low rent" gear when appropriate, but companies like Rigol and Siglent are re-defining value/competition and have real presence on lab/test benches/stations.

[BillyO]

I suggest to start adding up the cost of a hobby like model airplanes. For sure you are not spending $12k at once but if you are into a hobby for a while, the cost start adding up to several $k easely. 50 here, 100 there, etc it adds up.

Yeah, it does.  It adds up a whole quicker when you spend 5 times as much on each thing.  But that is not really the point.  It's okay to spend $2.7K on a PS, it's not okay to denegrate someone for spending $500 on a PS (that more than meets their needs) just because it's not your style.

It's not as though I'm not speaking from experience.  While my electronics lab would set you back about $6K total, the same is not rue for my photography kit.  That cost me in excess of $35K.  However .. I'm a decent photographer and that stuff has paid for itself.  It's still a hobby, but over 2 decades I've made enough chump change to settle the mortgage.  Still, I don't tell the guy with the $500 Canon Rebel he's just playing with junk.  If he's getting pictures he likes of his actives and family that's just awesome!  The important thing is he is enjoying his hobby.  Will he stand a chance of becoming a Pulitzer prize winning photo journalist with that gear .. not likely.

I make my own little 8-bit computers, and I delve into retro computers, plus I fix some stuff for friends.  I just bought a Siglent 2104X+ and tickled it to 500MHz etc..  I have some other Siglent stuff too, like 5.5 digit DMM a 60 MHz WFG and another 4ch 200MHz scope add to that my Korad PS, a UNI-T 3.5 digit DMM, a JunceTek 60MHz WFG, a Tek 475 scope, a Fluke 8018 DMM, a Brymen BM789 .. a ton of other stuff of all kinds, but as you can see it's quite a bit more than I really need.  Enough to equip 3 workstations.  To you it's probably all junk, to me it way more than "gets the job done".

I no longer make money from electronics.  I do it as a pastime.  It's fun, and the "b" and "c" and ancient "a" equipment I have never leaves me wanting.  If i buy something new (like the SDS2104x+) it's mostly just a personal treat - a toy.  I do have a project in mind that will benefit from having it, but if that project never materialized in favor of something else, then so be it.  It's just a hobby.  One of several in my life.  I don't need a $15K (or $150K) scope to get the job done.

If you have a need for something better - fair enough.  But you don't have to try to make others feel bad about buying a $800 Rigol.  It's probably 200% more than they need and a lot of money to spend on their pastime.

Oh, and another thing, I get fantastic support for my Siglent and Korad junk.  I had questions for both of them recently and I got put in touch with technicians in hours, not days .. or told to take a hike.

Anyway I'm rambling.  You do you, I'll just plod along as usual. 

The funny thing is, most of my friends think I have gone overboard.

[maxwell3e10]

Some people derive satisfaction from how expensive their hobby equipment is and some people derive satisfaction from how cheap it is, with often a factor of 100 difference in price for broadly similar performance.

For electronics hobby there is usually no time pressure, so one can understand equipment limitations and extract the most from it. For a company given the time pressure and varying sophistication of users there is more of a tendency to over-specify and use top brands. But as often as not I find that approach disappointing because specifications are now written to present equipment in best light, instead of conservatively, even for A-brands. So ultimately money is not a substitute for careful evaluation.

[AVGresponding]

We are not discussing principles but realites. Fact that some people are wealthy doesn't make a difference in fact that 99% of hobby users cannot afford something. And you got to be wealthy to buy 2300€ PSU for hobby when 100€ one does the job for 95% of user cases, and one that cost half the money has equal capabilities and is also good quality and will do the same job.
Argument here is that of volume of sales not democracy or human rights. Practically no hobby user (as in prevalent majority) will buy that PSU Nico bought. That is reality. Neither did he, he bought it for business. All of his advice that "it pays to buy expensive because it saves you time or whatever" is sometimes very true in professional environment, but in hobby environment prevalent problem is that people can choose to buy diapers or something for their hobby. Purchases are basically made with pocket money and minor savings. There is also huge difference in purchasing power between people, not to mention between countries. Some people can give 3000-4000€ for scope, for some 500€ is a stretch.

All of this points to reality that Keysight basically have no profits from hobby market. Why would they care for it then? It is good business decision not to invest anything into that market. What sells, sells by inertia and that's it. Sales to private citizens are different type of trade than selling to companies. You need different marketing approach, sales channel is different, you even employ different type of salesman and people on support. That costs significant money, and cannot be charged additionally because private customers don't care for that.
That is the reason for all the changes in Keysight lately. Corporate reorganization and optimization.
Which is something I have no problem with and I completely understand why they do it.
And they clearly and honestly tell you : please, we don't work with private customers.

Sinisa, shame on you! You are making too much sense with your balanced view!

As I said before, Keysight's upper management tried an experiment and gave some rope to the PR and marketing folks to ride the "maker" bandwagon and focus on the mass market for a few years. After a reevaluation of the fruits of this initiative they saw that expenses are high, demands are high and profits are low and decided to pull the plug and face the bad PR.

This happens all the time in the industry and comes and goes in cycles. Nothing new here.

This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one. Bill and Ted Dave built the business on the opposite, long-termist approach, of engineering as good a product as possible, and supporting it as well as possible with good documentation and parts/service availability.
Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.

The point here is that Keysight are trying to both have their cake and eat it; they are still promoting their products through youtube content makers, not to mention the big glossy ad in the header here, but are not interested in supporting the custom that comes their way due to it.

And, at least when it comes to handheld DMMs, both joesmith and my own experience indicate that this so called A brand is inferior to other A brands, and inferior to some B and C brands.

[HighVoltage]

As I said before, Keysight's upper management tried an experiment and gave some rope to the PR and marketing folks to ride the "maker" bandwagon and focus on the mass market for a few years. After a reevaluation of the fruits of this initiative they saw that expenses are high, demands are high and profits are low and decided to pull the plug and face the bad PR.

This might be true, but we do not know for sure.
It would be nice, if someone from Keysight would step in and confirm this.

[Black Phoenix]

This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one. Bill and Ted Dave built the business on the opposite, long-termist approach, of engineering as good a product as possible, and supporting it as well as possible with good documentation and parts/service availability.
Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.

The point here is that Keysight are trying to both have their cake and eat it; they are still promoting their products through youtube content makers, not to mention the big glossy ad in the header here, but are not interested in supporting the custom that comes their way due to it.

And, at least when it comes to handheld DMMs, both joesmith and my own experience indicate that this so called A brand is inferior to other A brands, and inferior to some B and C brands.

Finally someone touch it. It was exactly, almost word by word, what I was thinking on writing.

The work is made already for the corporate customers because it is an "added value" and something that corporate expect when they spend their budgets into any equipment.

It is easy to also provide it to non corporate customers specially when you still push your equipments in websites as this and selected YouTube celebrities/makers.

[2N3055]

This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one. Bill and Ted Dave built the business on the opposite, long-termist approach, of engineering as good a product as possible, and supporting it as well as possible with good documentation and parts/service availability.
Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.

The point here is that Keysight are trying to both have their cake and eat it; they are still promoting their products through youtube content makers, not to mention the big glossy ad in the header here, but are not interested in supporting the custom that comes their way due to it.

And, at least when it comes to handheld DMMs, both joesmith and my own experience indicate that this so called A brand is inferior to other A brands, and inferior to some B and C brands.

Finally someone touch it. It was exactly, almost word by word, what I was thinking on writing.

The work is made already for the corporate customers because it is an "added value" and something that corporate expect when they spend their budgets into any equipment.

It is easy to also provide it to non corporate customers specially when you still push your equipments in websites as this and selected YouTube celebrities/makers.

You are both quite wrong. Selling and supporting retail customers is so different you need to have what amounts to paralel  company to do so. Everything is different, including product. You cannot do it "on the side". It is huge cost if you don't plan to make a good business of it. And they don't.

Pushing to private customers is not happening. What we see are remnants of previous strategy that are not aligned yet. It's a huge multinational corporation, it has inertia. Yes you have link to Ebay store. But if you click on it there you can see "no retail customer" warning. For support, they will provide warranty but through point of sales. As far as youtube, go check. Is there any sponsored Keysight Youtube targeted to hobby users from year 2022? There is none. All the videos are old...

[rsjsouza]

This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one.

"Reductionist" by considering the vast majority of the world's population that does not have the buying power of upper North America or Western Europe? Ok, then. 

Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.

Following the elephant in the room logic: In the internet era, this is an outdated view. The idea that students are plowing through long documentation to better understand their equipment is unreal in the age of Google and fora like this one. Sure, they may get to the manual later in the game where they got familiar with it, but the decision to give their money away is minimally influenced by documentation. Also, purchasing decisions have many more considerations than familiarity with the equipment, especially for the hobbyist market where cost and bang per buck is much more valuable (Rigol's success is almost 100% credited to that). A similar thing for the professional market.

I have been seeing this behavioral tectonic shift for the past 30+ years, so it is not just my opinion.   

You are both quite wrong. Selling and supporting retail customers is so different you need to have what amounts to paralel  company to do so. Everything is different, including product. You cannot do it "on the side". It is huge cost if you don't plan to make a good business of it. And they don't.

Pushing to private customers is not happening. What we see are remnants of previous strategy that are not aligned yet. It's a huge multinational corporation, it has inertia. Yes you have link to Ebay store. But if you click on it there you can see "no retail customer" warning. For support, they will provide warranty but through point of sales. As far as youtube, go check. Is there any sponsored Keysight Youtube targeted to hobby users from year 2022? There is none. All the videos are old...

Exactly. The promotion is dirt cheap when compared to having a large support structure to deal with 1000s of customers that have zero possibility of revenue growth. The adsense chosen ads are quite out of control and can appear at any website, either for the hobbyist or for the professional markets. 

[rsjsouza]

As I said before, Keysight's upper management tried an experiment and gave some rope to the PR and marketing folks to ride the "maker" bandwagon and focus on the mass market for a few years. After a reevaluation of the fruits of this initiative they saw that expenses are high, demands are high and profits are low and decided to pull the plug and face the bad PR.

This might be true, but we do not know for sure.
It would be nice, if someone from Keysight would step in and confirm this.

You are absolutely right; I should have inserted a "probably" there: Keysight's upper management probably tried an experiment... 

[AVGresponding]

This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one. Bill and Ted Dave built the business on the opposite, long-termist approach, of engineering as good a product as possible, and supporting it as well as possible with good documentation and parts/service availability.
Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.

The point here is that Keysight are trying to both have their cake and eat it; they are still promoting their products through youtube content makers, not to mention the big glossy ad in the header here, but are not interested in supporting the custom that comes their way due to it.

And, at least when it comes to handheld DMMs, both joesmith and my own experience indicate that this so called A brand is inferior to other A brands, and inferior to some B and C brands.

Finally someone touch it. It was exactly, almost word by word, what I was thinking on writing.

The work is made already for the corporate customers because it is an "added value" and something that corporate expect when they spend their budgets into any equipment.

It is easy to also provide it to non corporate customers specially when you still push your equipments in websites as this and selected YouTube celebrities/makers.

You are both quite wrong. Selling and supporting retail customers is so different you need to have what amounts to paralel  company to do so. Everything is different, including product. You cannot do it "on the side". It is huge cost if you don't plan to make a good business of it. And they don't.

Pushing to private customers is not happening. What we see are remnants of previous strategy that are not aligned yet. It's a huge multinational corporation, it has inertia. Yes you have link to Ebay store. But if you click on it there you can see "no retail customer" warning. For support, they will provide warranty but through point of sales. As far as youtube, go check. Is there any sponsored Keysight Youtube targeted to hobby users from year 2022? There is none. All the videos are old...

Clearly we don't watch the same channels. I'm not going to post a wall of YT vids here for obvious reason, but suffice it to say, you are incorrect. Defpom, Marco Reps, Electroboom, all have sponsored or equipment provided videos from this year, and let's not forget the Keysight visit to Curios Marc's lab, used on Keysight's own channel for PR purposes, if not direct marketing.
I'd have to re-watch TSP's Fieldfox vid to remember if Keysight leant it him; might have been that TE reseller that he repairs stuff for.

[AVGresponding]

This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one.

"Reductionist" by considering the vast majority of the world's population that does not have the buying power of upper North America or Western Europe? Ok, then. 

What? Er, no. Reductionist in that the argument is presented as a zero-sum game. It isn't.

Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.

Following the elephant in the room logic: In the internet era, this is an outdated view. The idea that students are plowing through long documentation to better understand their equipment is unreal in the age of Google and fora like this one. Sure, they may get to the manual later in the game where they got familiar with it, but the decision to give their money away is minimally influenced by documentation. Also, purchasing decisions have many more considerations than familiarity with the equipment, especially for the hobbyist market where cost and bang per buck is much more valuable (Rigol's success is almost 100% credited to that). A similar thing for the professional market.

I have been seeing this behavioral tectonic shift for the past 30+ years, so it is not just my opinion.

And yet, it is just your opinion, your "evidence" is anecdotal, at best. You are ascribing motivations to other people, presumably based on your own. My motivations when choosing equipment are definitely not those. And to pretend that the Keysight prize giveaway to students is anything other than marketing is pure disingenuousness or perhaps naivete.

If you're choosing something without looking at the documentation first, you're an idiot. How could you possibly know whether something meets your needs without first reading the specs at the very least?

[2N3055]

This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one.

"Reductionist" by considering the vast majority of the world's population that does not have the buying power of upper North America or Western Europe? Ok, then. 

What? Er, no. Reductionist in that the argument is presented as a zero-sum game. It isn't.

Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.

Following the elephant in the room logic: In the internet era, this is an outdated view. The idea that students are plowing through long documentation to better understand their equipment is unreal in the age of Google and fora like this one. Sure, they may get to the manual later in the game where they got familiar with it, but the decision to give their money away is minimally influenced by documentation. Also, purchasing decisions have many more considerations than familiarity with the equipment, especially for the hobbyist market where cost and bang per buck is much more valuable (Rigol's success is almost 100% credited to that). A similar thing for the professional market.

I have been seeing this behavioral tectonic shift for the past 30+ years, so it is not just my opinion.

And yet, it is just your opinion, your "evidence" is anecdotal, at best. You are ascribing motivations to other people, presumably based on your own. My motivations when choosing equipment are definitely not those. And to pretend that the Keysight prize giveaway to students is anything other than marketing is pure disingenuousness or perhaps naivete.

If you're choosing something without looking at the documentation first, you're an idiot. How could you possibly know whether something meets your needs without first reading the specs at the very least?

You are typical of one of those people I said that are exception to the rule, you have such attitude because you have such purchasing power that allows you to be elitist. Simple as that.  Good for you. For most people that isn't so. Does that mean you think they are stupid because of that? I hope not.

You should do more facts and less insults..

Documentation for retail customer is different. Support structure is different. Repair structure is different.
Because customer expectations are different, skillset is different, purchasing patterns are different.

And all those services are available from all manufacturers not only Keysight. And legendary documentation of HP is no more. Service manuals are joke, disassembly,no schematic, part numbers list: knobs, buttons, mainboard assembly, screen. Look at Siglent Service manuals, they are no worse than Keysight.
User manuals? Keysight user manual for 3000T is taksative enumeration of menus. There are no tutorials, in depth explanations... I actually had to figure details out from SCPI manual, there was more details...Actually Tektronix still has some old documents and provide a little more of in depth knowledge.

There is no added value in hobby market segment from A brands, because they don't want to spend money on something that does not have return.
They rely on snobbery and naivety of fanboys that are making it a religion... As I said, everybody makes their choices, but facts are facts. Writing is on the wall.

[nctnico]

Sorry but you are totally off the mark here. It sounds more like you are trying to persuade yourself A brands are not worth the extra money rather than making actual sense.

The fact that Keysight is clearly targeting the maker community by product placement in videos from influencers in the maker community tells me loud & clear that Keysight is very interested in reaching the maker / hobbyist community AND that this thread is way overblown. In the end there are 2 or 3 persons that didn't got the support they thought they where entitled to and turned that into a shitstorm with a lot of parrots and hyperbole. But we have been over that before.

[TERRA Operative]

Well, I can personally confirm that Keysight Japan wouldn't even talk to me until I gave them proof of business, then their service was excellent.

As a hobbyist, I was completely stuck without service or warranty even with a valid warranty claim on my 34461A bench multimeter, but I am able to use my friend's (and boss) business documents and their service has been fantastic since, including picking up and returning my multimeter repaired and calibrated.

[Nominal Animal]

Sorry but you are totally off the mark here. It sounds more like you are trying to persuade yourself A brands are not worth the extra money rather than making actual sense.

I find the entire idea of "brand" and even more so "brand class" of having any kind of reliable correlation with device quality, utility, or price-to-performance ratio, to be utterly wonky.

Brands are marketing, and a company might be known for making good tools, or for good customer support or calibration services; but even so, every single tool should be evaluated on its own merits.

Relying on brands is pretty close to relying on astrology.  After all, if millions of people believe so, it must be true.

[AVGresponding]

This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one.

"Reductionist" by considering the vast majority of the world's population that does not have the buying power of upper North America or Western Europe? Ok, then. 

What? Er, no. Reductionist in that the argument is presented as a zero-sum game. It isn't.

Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.

Following the elephant in the room logic: In the internet era, this is an outdated view. The idea that students are plowing through long documentation to better understand their equipment is unreal in the age of Google and fora like this one. Sure, they may get to the manual later in the game where they got familiar with it, but the decision to give their money away is minimally influenced by documentation. Also, purchasing decisions have many more considerations than familiarity with the equipment, especially for the hobbyist market where cost and bang per buck is much more valuable (Rigol's success is almost 100% credited to that). A similar thing for the professional market.

I have been seeing this behavioral tectonic shift for the past 30+ years, so it is not just my opinion.

And yet, it is just your opinion, your "evidence" is anecdotal, at best. You are ascribing motivations to other people, presumably based on your own. My motivations when choosing equipment are definitely not those. And to pretend that the Keysight prize giveaway to students is anything other than marketing is pure disingenuousness or perhaps naivete.

If you're choosing something without looking at the documentation first, you're an idiot. How could you possibly know whether something meets your needs without first reading the specs at the very least?

You are typical of one of those people I said that are exception to the rule, you have such attitude because you have such purchasing power that allows you to be elitist. Simple as that.  Good for you. For most people that isn't so. Does that mean you think they are stupid because of that? I hope not.

You should do more facts and less insults..

Documentation for retail customer is different. Support structure is different. Repair structure is different.
Because customer expectations are different, skillset is different, purchasing patterns are different.

And all those services are available from all manufacturers not only Keysight. And legendary documentation of HP is no more. Service manuals are joke, disassembly,no schematic, part numbers list: knobs, buttons, mainboard assembly, screen. Look at Siglent Service manuals, they are no worse than Keysight.
User manuals? Keysight user manual for 3000T is taksative enumeration of menus. There are no tutorials, in depth explanations... I actually had to figure details out from SCPI manual, there was more details...Actually Tektronix still has some old documents and provide a little more of in depth knowledge.

There is no added value in hobby market segment from A brands, because they don't want to spend money on something that does not have return.
They rely on snobbery and naivety of fanboys that are making it a religion... As I said, everybody makes their choices, but facts are facts. Writing is on the wall.

You know less than nothing about me, and I find your presumptions offensive. I operate on a budget so limited you'd think I lived in somewhere other than in a G7 country. I rarely have to deal with customer support because almost every item of TE I own is second-hand. The arguments that some people here are making that it's too hard and separate from the main business model to support hobbyists in any way is complete bollocks. TTi are a far smaller company than Keysight, but if you contact them asking if they have a pdf of a manual for a piece of TE that was obsolete 20 years ago, a friendly and polite tech will find one and email it to you. Keysight management have just signed up to the modern bean-counting max-profit min-investment short-term greed model. You do yourself no favours by defending it, just makes you look like a brain dead fanboy, which I'm sure you actually are not.

Saying the hobby market has no returns is dumb, short-sighted nonsense, and here's why:  https://www.quora.com/How-did-Bill-Hewlett-and-David-Packard-influence-Steve-Jobs

[nctnico]

Sorry but you are totally off the mark here. It sounds more like you are trying to persuade yourself A brands are not worth the extra money rather than making actual sense.

I find the entire idea of "brand" and even more so "brand class" of having any kind of reliable correlation with device quality, utility, or price-to-performance ratio, to be utterly wonky.

Actually that depends on how much a brand is valued by the manufacturer. On high value brands you'll find that the customer service is excellent and quality control is very strict. And if there is a problem, it will be rectified without charging extra and an apology on top. Buy some quality gear and you'll find out that there certainly is a strong correlation between quality and brand class.

[2N3055]

This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one.

"Reductionist" by considering the vast majority of the world's population that does not have the buying power of upper North America or Western Europe? Ok, then. 

What? Er, no. Reductionist in that the argument is presented as a zero-sum game. It isn't.

Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.

Following the elephant in the room logic: In the internet era, this is an outdated view. The idea that students are plowing through long documentation to better understand their equipment is unreal in the age of Google and fora like this one. Sure, they may get to the manual later in the game where they got familiar with it, but the decision to give their money away is minimally influenced by documentation. Also, purchasing decisions have many more considerations than familiarity with the equipment, especially for the hobbyist market where cost and bang per buck is much more valuable (Rigol's success is almost 100% credited to that). A similar thing for the professional market.

I have been seeing this behavioral tectonic shift for the past 30+ years, so it is not just my opinion.

And yet, it is just your opinion, your "evidence" is anecdotal, at best. You are ascribing motivations to other people, presumably based on your own. My motivations when choosing equipment are definitely not those. And to pretend that the Keysight prize giveaway to students is anything other than marketing is pure disingenuousness or perhaps naivete.

If you're choosing something without looking at the documentation first, you're an idiot. How could you possibly know whether something meets your needs without first reading the specs at the very least?

You are typical of one of those people I said that are exception to the rule, you have such attitude because you have such purchasing power that allows you to be elitist. Simple as that.  Good for you. For most people that isn't so. Does that mean you think they are stupid because of that? I hope not.

You should do more facts and less insults..

Documentation for retail customer is different. Support structure is different. Repair structure is different.
Because customer expectations are different, skillset is different, purchasing patterns are different.

And all those services are available from all manufacturers not only Keysight. And legendary documentation of HP is no more. Service manuals are joke, disassembly,no schematic, part numbers list: knobs, buttons, mainboard assembly, screen. Look at Siglent Service manuals, they are no worse than Keysight.
User manuals? Keysight user manual for 3000T is taksative enumeration of menus. There are no tutorials, in depth explanations... I actually had to figure details out from SCPI manual, there was more details...Actually Tektronix still has some old documents and provide a little more of in depth knowledge.

There is no added value in hobby market segment from A brands, because they don't want to spend money on something that does not have return.
They rely on snobbery and naivety of fanboys that are making it a religion... As I said, everybody makes their choices, but facts are facts. Writing is on the wall.

You know less than nothing about me, and I find your presumptions offensive. I operate on a budget so limited you'd think I lived in somewhere other than in a G7 country. I rarely have to deal with customer support because almost every item of TE I own is second-hand. The arguments that some people here are making that it's too hard and separate from the main business model to support hobbyists in any way is complete bollocks. TTi are a far smaller company than Keysight, but if you contact them asking if they have a pdf of a manual for a piece of TE that was obsolete 20 years ago, a friendly and polite tech will find one and email it to you. Keysight management have just signed up to the modern bean-counting max-profit min-investment short-term greed model. You do yourself no favours by defending it, just makes you look like a brain dead fanboy, which I'm sure you actually are not.

Saying the hobby market has no returns is dumb, short-sighted nonsense, and here's why:  https://www.quora.com/How-did-Bill-Hewlett-and-David-Packard-influence-Steve-Jobs

I am not defending it, why do you say that! What is wrong with you ??
I am trying to explain what the facts are.

And it is not my opinion that hobby market is bad. Again why do you say that? Did you confuse me with somebody?
I am explaining Keysight deeply believe that and that that is their company policy. As in, it is in their written company policy as published on their web site. They don't care for that market segment and their strategy is big clients, solutions, software and option renting etc...
They are currently undergoing same corporate "transformation" that was done in IBM. Where company that practically invented PC stops making computers. They went into cloud, software services etc... And they didn't loose anything. What they lost in PC revenue they made up in other products.

That How-did-Bill-Hewlett-and-David-Packard-influence-Steve-Jobs link is meant to prove what? I honestly didn't understand what you mean by it.

[nctnico]

What you keep missing is that Keysight has a large distribution network with dealers that will sell to individuals. It is exactly the same as Ford doing advertising for their cars. They don't expect you to buy from them directly but from one of their many dealers which in turn will provide service for the product.