Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist

[tchiwam]

Everyone should bring this up to their next youtube event ...

[PixieDust]

Paperwork so you can pay the government their taxes.

I’m mostly trying to gauge what a maker is? A maker is surely registered in some way as a business, possibly even LLC? I know the requirements for a LLC.

[Nominal Animal]

A maker is surely registered in some way as a business, possibly even LLC? I know the requirements for a LLC.

Not necessarily.  Consider a local "hackerspace" or hacklab, where a hobbyist can do stuff just for fun with friends, and even film doing so.  In many jurisdictions they are organized as associations.  Thus, a member of such an association could very well call themselves a "maker".

[river]

Considering all the  Youtube  Influencers that are pushing the Keysight to hobbyist and doing the Giveaways for Keysights, this makes no sense and  is a ding on their Reputation.
How can you trust a company that does this?

Is there anyone around that can talk to Keysight higher ups  because this alone heavily damages their reputation.

[HighVoltage]

I can not complain about Keysight at all and just had a very positive experience again, with Keysight Germany. But I have a business account.

However, it seems the amazing grass roots efforts of Daniel Bogdanoff was for nothing.
And that is really sad!

[2N3055]

Considering all the  Youtube  Influencers that are pushing the Keysight to hobbyist and doing the Giveaways for Keysights, this makes no sense and  is a ding on their Reputation.
How can you trust a company that does this?

Is there anyone around that can talk to Keysight higher ups  because this alone heavily damages their reputation.

With all due respect, but to Keysight, entry level market segment (that especially includes hobby users) is not important part of their business strategy. It is clearly stated in their company strategy in a statement to shareholders. In fact, their goal is to "reinvent" themselves to a "provider of T&M services and solutions" from T&M equipment manufacturing and sales company. Entry level instruments are there as a placeholder, because they have to have full catalog. When talking to them few years ago, a 1000 series of scopes was a considered a "throw in gift" if you buy something of real value. I was offered at time that if I buy 3000T at full price I would get a complimentary 1000 scope to go with it. Like when I bought  a SDG6000X AWG from Battronix and they threw in a UNI-T multimeter as a "thank you for your purchase" token.

And there is another elephant in the room.  Fact is that users shouldn't care about Keysight either.
Keysight virtually has no products that are of interest of hobby users. I am not talking about used equipment but new one.  Stuff that is barely within the reach of hobby users have none of advanced features that Keysight is famous for.
There is also no innovation in that segment. There is a lot of innovation at mid/high range but up to 3000 series scopes there is nothing really new in many years. 2000A series is in it original form for 10 years. In meantime, eastern competition made miles of progress, software and hardware.  And it shows.

[coppice]

With all due respect, but to Keysight, entry level market segment (that especially includes hobby users) is not important part of their business strategy. It is clearly stated in their company strategy in a statement to shareholders.

For Keysight the entry level is very important, but not for revenue. Its marketing. Its like cheap Matlab licences for students. Its how they get the students hooked.

[alm]

And there is another elephant in the room.  Fact is that users shouldn't care about Keysight either.
Keysight virtually has no products that are of interest of hobby users. I am not talking about used equipment but new one.  Stuff that is barely within the reach of hobby users have none of advanced features that Keysight is famous for.

There are certainly instruments that are within reach for some hobbyists that provide value. Maybe not the scopes, but how about the E36100 series power supplies with their high current resolution, or the 3446xA multimeters? Both have advanced features and in the case of the DMMs quality (stability) beyond what the B-brands are producing so far.

[nctnico]

And there is another elephant in the room.  Fact is that users shouldn't care about Keysight either.
Keysight virtually has no products that are of interest of hobby users. I am not talking about used equipment but new one.  Stuff that is barely within the reach of hobby users have none of advanced features that Keysight is famous for.

There are certainly instruments that are within reach for some hobbyists that provide value. Maybe not the scopes, but how about the E36100 series power supplies with their high current resolution, or the 3446xA multimeters? Both have advanced features and in the case of the DMMs quality (stability) beyond what the B-brands are producing so far.

Agreed! In general it is not like the B-brands are equivalent to the A-brands in any way. After all, you don't get what you don't pay for.

I have an E36113A myself and when I bought it none of the B brands had anything that comes close to it.

[coromonadalix]

Myself with Keysight  was Ok with an company account,   just some language barriers to overcome,  had better service in english  loll    i'm native french

Ordered many parts for some meters .... but not for other stuff     or other type of service

[2N3055]

And there is another elephant in the room.  Fact is that users shouldn't care about Keysight either.
Keysight virtually has no products that are of interest of hobby users. I am not talking about used equipment but new one.  Stuff that is barely within the reach of hobby users have none of advanced features that Keysight is famous for.

There are certainly instruments that are within reach for some hobbyists that provide value. Maybe not the scopes, but how about the E36100 series power supplies with their high current resolution, or the 3446xA multimeters? Both have advanced features and in the case of the DMMs quality (stability) beyond what the B-brands are producing so far.

That is why I said virtually no. There might be an product or two, but that makes a Keysight a brand that is not important to hobby user, despite being largest T&M manufacturer. 
And hobby user rarely buy even those two product lines. Those PSU are nice but 3x the price of already very nice supplies by Rigol, Siglent or GW Instek. Not to mention those cheap 100 USD lab PSU that already do the job for most. Also brand new 6.5 digit meters are not something hobby users buy.

Do not confuse fact that some people will buy very expensive device for their hobby, with what average Joe will buy. Those few are not contributing to statistics here...

[2N3055]

And there is another elephant in the room.  Fact is that users shouldn't care about Keysight either.
Keysight virtually has no products that are of interest of hobby users. I am not talking about used equipment but new one.  Stuff that is barely within the reach of hobby users have none of advanced features that Keysight is famous for.

There are certainly instruments that are within reach for some hobbyists that provide value. Maybe not the scopes, but how about the E36100 series power supplies with their high current resolution, or the 3446xA multimeters? Both have advanced features and in the case of the DMMs quality (stability) beyond what the B-brands are producing so far.

Agreed! In general it is not like the B-brands are equivalent to the A-brands in any way. After all, you don't get what you don't pay for.

I have an E36113A myself and when I bought it none of the B brands had anything that comes close to it.

You have every right to chose to be elitist with your own money.
But implying that there is a real value to be had is not true. There are differences but not worth the money. That is my opinion as a counter to your.

A brands are better only where they are better. They are not holly cows..
Keysight has better 20GHz scopes than Siglent. Because Siglent has no 20GHz scopes.
OTOH in 1000 series scopes ranges, Keysight is outclassed in almost every aspect by several non A brand manufacturers, price per price. Because for the money they ask, you can get higher class (2000 level) devices from others. Heck, you can even give just a bit more and have RTB2000 that is unspeakably better device and form A brand...

B brands are not only equivalent but even better at some market segments.
And also B brands cannot even compete in others because they don't have products that can compete.

E36113A has only one special thing and that is low current mode. Otherwise, a completely unremarkable device.
For 1.390,00€. I assure you that almost no hobby user will buy that 40W single channel PSU for that money.
That doesn't even have numeric keypad to enter values.

New Rigol DP2031 is  1.373,75€.  3 completely isolated channels, 220W total, 1uA current resolution....
 

[nctnico]

I got the wrong number. The E36313A I have is a triple channel 160W supply which does have a numeric keypad (otherwise I would not have bought it).

That new Rigol supply is just out. Has this been thouroughly evaluated yet? And resolution isn't accuracy. Also, price wise the Rigol ain't exactly cheap so you aren't saving a lot of money.

[2N3055]

I got the wrong number. The E36313A I have is a triple channel 160W supply which does have a numeric keypad (otherwise I would not have bought it).

That new Rigol supply is just out. Has this been thouroughly evaluated yet? And resolution isn't accuracy. Also, price wise the Rigol ain't exactly cheap so you aren't saving a lot of money.

OK that is a good PSU, I agree. No contest there. But it is also 2,279.00 €.
So Rigol with similar specs is almost half the money. I would say that is significantly cheaper.

I new Rigols thoroughly evaluated?
Like that Keysight PSU that was silently retired that was exploding devices connected to it. Like that?

I cannot say how well it works but if it is as rock solid as my DP831 have been for last few years, then it is as good quality as if it were Keysight. And after 5+ years or so now, still in spec on all channels. And dead quiet (electrically) too.. Less than 110uV of noise on 30V channel.
Only thing missing is that it has no low current measurement range.. Otherwise very happy with my purchase.

[BillyO]

I got the wrong number. The E36313A I have is a triple channel 160W supply which does have a numeric keypad (otherwise I would not have bought it).

Most hobbyists can equip an entire lab of instruments that fully meet or exceed their needs for what that PS costs.

My 'C' brand, cheapie KORAD KA3305P will do things your E36313A will not do (like supply 60V @ 5A or 30V @ 10A) .. and for 1/10 the price.

You could lay off the elitist BS a bit.  Just sayin'.

[switchabl]

Most hobbyists can equip an entire lab of instruments that fully meet or exceed their needs for what that PS costs.

That is thinking like a business though (somewhat ironically). For your hobby, if you decide you like something and it's worth it to you, then you can just go and buy it. It does not have to be cost-effective. 

[nctnico]

I got the wrong number. The E36313A I have is a triple channel 160W supply which does have a numeric keypad (otherwise I would not have bought it).

Most hobbyists can equip an entire lab of instruments that fully meet or exceed their needs for what that PS costs.

My 'C' brand, cheapie KORAD KA3305P will do things your E36313A will not do (like supply 60V @ 5A or 30V @ 10A) .. and for 1/10 the price.

Now you are comparing based on different requirements. The whole point of the E36313A is providing low noise, precission power to circuits. And it can do accurate metering and logging as well (like you have 6 4.5 digit DMMs hooked up to a power supply that measure voltage and current). I have a whole bunch of other power supplies as well that have either higher power or a more precise output voltage.

The thing is, at some point you have to spend money once your requirements become more strict. The dual range current metering is something that used to be only available on Keysight power supplies (at least for as far as I can see). If you work on low power stuff every now and then, that is a very useful feature because a DMM typically has quite a bit of burden voltage when measuring currents in the tens of mA range.

I also have a 25MHz function generator from Tektronix that costs ballpark 3k euro. The reason I got it is because none of the function generators from the B-brands can deliver the required performance. There is nothing elitist about it; just a matter of getting the right tools for the job.

[BillyO]

Most hobbyists can equip an entire lab of instruments that fully meet or exceed their needs for what that PS costs.

That is thinking like a business though (somewhat ironically). For your hobby, if you decide you like something and it's worth it to you, then you can just go and buy it. It does not have to be cost-effective. 

I have no issue with that at all.  If I was Elon Musk I'd have a pretty kick-ass kit for sure.  Heck The stuff I have goes well beyond my needs as it is.

[BillyO]

I got the wrong number. The E36313A I have is a triple channel 160W supply which does have a numeric keypad (otherwise I would not have bought it).

Most hobbyists can equip an entire lab of instruments that fully meet or exceed their needs for what that PS costs.

My 'C' brand, cheapie KORAD KA3305P will do things your E36313A will not do (like supply 60V @ 5A or 30V @ 10A) .. and for 1/10 the price.

Now you are comparing based on different requirements. The whole point of the E36313A is providing low noise, precission power to circuits. And it can do accurate metering and logging as well (like you have 6 4.5 digit DMMs hooked up to a power supply that measure voltage and current). I have a whole bunch of other power supplies as well that have either higher power or a more precise output voltage.

The thing is, at some point you have to spend money once your requirements become more strict. The dual range current metering is something that used to be only available on Keysight power supplies (at least for as far as I can see). If you work on low power stuff every now and then, that is a very useful feature because a DMM typically has quite a bit of burden voltage when measuring currents in the tens of mA range.

I also have a 25MHz function generator from Tektronix that costs ballpark 3k euro. The reason I got it is because none of the function generators from the B-brands can deliver the required performance. There is nothing elitist about it; just a matter of getting the right tools for the job.

If you have requirements that have to be met for a specific kind of work then you have to buy an instrument that meets those requirements.  That I also don't have an issue with, but sayig something like:

In general it is not like the B-brands are equivalent to the A-brands in any way.

Not only sounds elitist but also belies what you just said above.  Equivalence depends on requirements.  For instance, the Siglent SPD3303 is equivalent to your Keysight in many respects and even exceeds in some while not meeting in others.  If you need the additional current of the Siglent the Keysight will just fail miserably to meet your needs despite being an "A" brand and costing 4 times as much.

[J-R]

A big part of being a hobbyist is hunting for good deals!  I picked up the E36313A with GPIB for $1,300 delivered, like new condition.  Added full warranty/replacement coverage for $60/year.

I started out as a B/C brand buyer because I thought to myself "why pay more for the same thing" or "I don't need that extra feature".  But after a bunch of purchases, reality set in and I discovered they are NOT the same thing and more often than not I eventually desired the missing feature(s).  Obviously there ARE exceptions, and I think that is where the "wars" start, but in general I've found my A brand purchases to be worth the extra money and so that is my focus going forward.

[2N3055]

Most hobbyists can equip an entire lab of instruments that fully meet or exceed their needs for what that PS costs.

That is thinking like a business though (somewhat ironically). For your hobby, if you decide you like something and it's worth it to you, then you can just go and buy it. It does not have to be cost-effective. 

You forgot that you might like something very much and have no money to buy it. I really like Porsche 911 GT3 RS, and I think it is worth the money. There is only little problem that I don't have 200000€ for something that has no practical value but would be just a toy. Where I need to go little Skoda can take me well enough. Actually being rational (or frugal) with money is more common in private life than companies.

We are not discussing principles but realites. Fact that some people are wealthy doesn't make a difference in fact that 99% of hobby users cannot afford something. And you got to be wealthy to buy 2300€ PSU for hobby when 100€ one does the job for 95% of user cases, and one that cost half the money has equal capabilities and is also good quality and will do the same job.
Argument here is that of volume of sales not democracy or human rights. Practically no hobby user (as in prevalent majority) will buy that PSU Nico bought. That is reality. Neither did he, he bought it for business. All of his advice that "it pays to buy expensive because it saves you time or whatever" is sometimes very true in professional environment, but in hobby environment prevalent problem is that people can choose to buy diapers or something for their hobby. Purchases are basically made with pocket money and minor savings. There is also huge difference in purchasing power between people, not to mention between countries. Some people can give 3000-4000€ for scope, for some 500€ is a stretch.

All of this points to reality that Keysight basically have no profits from hobby market. Why would they care for it then? It is good business decision not to invest anything into that market. What sells, sells by inertia and that's it. Sales to private citizens are different type of trade than selling to companies. You need different marketing approach, sales channel is different, you even employ different type of salesman and people on support. That costs significant money, and cannot be charged additionally because private customers don't care for that.
That is the reason for all the changes in Keysight lately. Corporate reorganization and optimization.
Which is something I have no problem with and I completely understand why they do it.
And they clearly and honestly tell you : please, we don't work with private customers.

[nctnico]

That I also don't have an issue with, but sayig something like:

In general it is not like the B-brands are equivalent to the A-brands in any way.

Not only sounds elitist but also belies what you just said above.  Equivalence depends on requirements.  For instance, the Siglent SPD3303 is equivalent to your Keysight in many respects and even exceeds in some while not meeting in others. 

I have wasted several k euro to learn that the B brands are not equivalent to A brands. So either you have to spend time to very carefully examine B brand equipment or just buy A brand equipment. The new Rigol PSU 2N3055 mentioned is a good example. It costs a considerable amount of money and at those price levels I think it is better to go a step up and just buy the A brand.

If you need the additional current of the Siglent the Keysight will just fail miserably to meet your needs despite being an "A" brand and costing 4 times as much.

No, you just buy an A brand PSU which can deliver more current / voltage.

[Martin72]

A-Brands, B-Brands...C,D,E,F,G...

For brands like Tektronix, R&S, Lecroy, Keysight, Yokogawa you pay the name, the quality, for the deacdes of research they spent and finally for the service they offer.
And the prices are in spheres, no "normal" hobbyist could/would afford.
So for me the consequence was to ignore them...
It makes no sense to compare it with the stuff I could buy for the money I have(for the hobby).
Simply this.
Example my "new" siglent HD scope.
It´s a really good scope "even" for the money it cost(appx 3500€ is not really hobby-price), this I can say about it while I´m working with "bigger" stuff everyday in the company.
But it would never come in my mind to compare it with the 12 bit scope from lecroy we got.
Because it´s simply unfair.
Better compare it to a one which cost near by or similar.
But more and more I got a feeling here in the forum, people expect to get stuff which is comparable to the ones they never can afford.
Because they spend 1000 instead of 500 bucks...
So what, for this money you can´t get even a simple software license from one of the top brands ( better naming IMHO instead A,B..).
And there are people here in the forum, who always argue from the "pro side" - which makes in most cases no sense.
Because we´re talking about stuff hobbyists can afford.

[rsjsouza]

We are not discussing principles but realites. Fact that some people are wealthy doesn't make a difference in fact that 99% of hobby users cannot afford something. And you got to be wealthy to buy 2300€ PSU for hobby when 100€ one does the job for 95% of user cases, and one that cost half the money has equal capabilities and is also good quality and will do the same job.
Argument here is that of volume of sales not democracy or human rights. Practically no hobby user (as in prevalent majority) will buy that PSU Nico bought. That is reality. Neither did he, he bought it for business. All of his advice that "it pays to buy expensive because it saves you time or whatever" is sometimes very true in professional environment, but in hobby environment prevalent problem is that people can choose to buy diapers or something for their hobby. Purchases are basically made with pocket money and minor savings. There is also huge difference in purchasing power between people, not to mention between countries. Some people can give 3000-4000€ for scope, for some 500€ is a stretch.

All of this points to reality that Keysight basically have no profits from hobby market. Why would they care for it then? It is good business decision not to invest anything into that market. What sells, sells by inertia and that's it. Sales to private citizens are different type of trade than selling to companies. You need different marketing approach, sales channel is different, you even employ different type of salesman and people on support. That costs significant money, and cannot be charged additionally because private customers don't care for that.
That is the reason for all the changes in Keysight lately. Corporate reorganization and optimization.
Which is something I have no problem with and I completely understand why they do it.
And they clearly and honestly tell you : please, we don't work with private customers.

Sinisa, shame on you! You are making too much sense with your balanced view!

As I said before, Keysight's upper management tried an experiment and gave some rope to the PR and marketing folks to ride the "maker" bandwagon and focus on the mass market for a few years. After a reevaluation of the fruits of this initiative they saw that expenses are high, demands are high and profits are low and decided to pull the plug and face the bad PR.

This happens all the time in the industry and comes and goes in cycles. Nothing new here.

[nctnico]

A-Brands, B-Brands...C,D,E,F,G...

For brands like Tektronix, R&S, Lecroy, Keysight, Yokogawa you pay the name, the quality, for the deacdes of research they spent and finally for the service they offer.
And the prices are in spheres, no "normal" hobbyist could/would afford.

Because we´re talking about stuff hobbyists can afford.

Sorry, but the whole 'it is for hobby so it must be cheap' stance like some tend to cling to is idiotic. Go tell that to shops that sell 5k euro bicycles or audio gear that starts at 10k. Or how much does a gaming PC cost nowadays? I see gaming PCs that cost 10k euro just for the PC alone. Or how about metal working? There is a huge list of hobbies that cost several k euro just to buy some gear. No, things shouldn't be cheap because it is just for hobby. That is nonsense. Gear for hobby is worth what you are willing to spend on it.