Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist

[rsjsouza]

To be fair, if I had a company the size of Keysight I would do exactly the same. They can easily create their own refurbished online store and do not have to give any money to eBay - imagine the comissions paid to eBay for tens of thousands of dollars of a single equipment sale...

Obviously that does not exclude the possibility of them actively pulling everything from the mass market as discussed in this thread.

[xrunner]

Regarding the Keysight Ebay store, I sent a message to Keysight on Ebay regarding the selling to home hobby users about this issue. All I got was a canned response telling me to look at "Please see point 4J on our T&Cs: "

Naw, they don't want to sell to hobbyists, so being on Ebay is just a great nuisance.

I got a reply from the Keysight Ebay store, legalistic as I suspected. So to my question -

Hello,

In your equipment listings it is stated -

"For professional and industrial use only"

There has been some discussion on electronics forums from users who have bought Keysight equipment for home use, that Keysight does not provide technical support to them because they are not a "business" but a home hobby user. Can you clarify whether this is true or false - that home hobbyist users who buy Keysight equipment (new or used) will not receive technical support? Are there any countries you sell to whose buyers would not receive technical support if they were a home or hobbyist user?

Thanks,

I got this back today -

Please see point 4J on our T&Cs:

https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/9018-60029/exhibits/9018-60029.pdf

Best regards, Keysight Technologies.

Keysight Technologies
The leader in Electronic Test and Measurement Equipment innovation for more than 75 years.
stores.ebay.com/keysight

Here is point 4 (j) -

4 (j) Products are intended for professional and industrial use only, and
are not suitable for consumer or household use, and Customer
represents and warrants that it is not acquiring Products for such
uses. Consumer or household use, or use outside of the Specification
for the Product, will nullify Sections 2(a), (b) and (e), 4(a) and (b), 5(b)
and 6 of these Terms and void the warranty terms set out, or
incorporated in, Section 3.

Products are not specifi cally designed,
manufactured or intended for sale as parts, components or
assemblies for the planning, construction, maintenance or direct
operation of a nuclear facility. Keysight shall not be liable for any
damages resulting from such use

They don't claim you cannot buy something, but that it will void term and warranties if you are a consumer / household user.

So that pretty much does it for me too. I had toyed with getting a new Keysight scope one day, but that closes them off to me forever. What a shame.

[HighVoltage]

 They can easily create their own refurbished online store and do not have to give any money to eBay - imagine the comissions paid to eBay for tens of thousands of dollars of a single equipment sale...

Keysight had their own used equipment store for a while already:
https://saving.em.keysight.com/en/used

[madires]

FYI, Keysight pulled all their listings from ebay around the first few days of September and one person I spoke with said they have no plans to resume sales on ebay.  They wouldn't give a reason.  It could be related to this topic where they want to focus on larger/business customers, or it could be due to ebay's "secret" Refurbished program or some other ebay policy.  Or some other business decision.

In case someone doesn't know about ebay's Refurbished program:
eBay follows amazon's lead, consolidating & destroying the refurbished marketplace https://odysee.com/@rossmanngroup:a/ebay-follows-amazon's-lead,:d

[J-R]

I just contacted Keysight to purchase warranty coverage for some of my more expensive HPAK TE and had no issues.  The cost was very reasonable, a little over $50/year per device.  I didn't have to provide any business or similar info.

[hpw]

Products are intended for professional and industrial use only, and
are not suitable for consumer or household use, and Customer
represents and warrants that it is not acquiring Products for such
uses. Consumer or household use, or use outside of the Specification
for the Product

This means, not gear to trigger chicas within the kitchen/sauna ... only allowed & possible, if you own a VAT ... 

[TERRA Operative]

Well, I just had a fantastic experience with Keysight support today (no sarcasm).

I am lucky to be able to use my friends business name, so that changes things, but still, I was surprised.

I recently purchased a second hand 85032B Type N cal kit. Some of the labels on the connectors were rubbed clean along with serial numbers, so I sent them a message asking if they can check the calibration history (it was last cal'd in 2010) to see if the serial numbers were written down in their records.

They got back to me within the hour and gave me all the serial numbers they had on record, which gave me the missing ones I needed.
We had a back and forth in the chat in the Keysight portal in near real-time as I had a few other questions too. I was expecting a day or two between responses.
They weren't forthcoming with the old calibration paperwork though, but I wasn't expecting so due to privacy issues re. the previous owners details etc.

So, special thanks to Sugiyama-san in Japan KeysightCare for the awesome help!
Now I can get the replacement label stickers I'm drawing up in Adobe Illustrator all finished up.

[Zucca]

When they want, their support is fantastic.
Before the "no hobbyist time", Keysight was my number 1 company to go.

[HighVoltage]

Luckily I have a business and an account with Keysight.

Just this week I had a very pleasing service experience with Keysight Germany.
Everything was taken care of perfectly and really fast.

[Ben321]

I bought a Keysight DSOX1204G oscilloscope for home use. I recently contacted Keysight support but they have point-blank refused to talk to me because I am not a company. This is their reply:

Dear ...,

Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for personal, domestic, or household use. While we thank you for your interest in our products and/or services, we are unable to provide you with technical support without a VAT ID or equivalent  proof of business license.

That's it. That's all I got. This is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. Of course, they're perfectly happy to take your money and sell you one, but then apparently you're on your own.

Well, guess which company I won't be going to when I need a new bit of test gear at work. I am pretty furious right now. Fuck Keysight.

So I'm putting this here as a warning to you. Just get the Siglent, Rigol or whatever. Avoid Keysight.

Depending on what country that company is headquartered in, their response may be illegal. I think at least in the US, a company MUST provide support for products they sell, to whoever bought those products. If it's a Chinese company though, you may be out of luck, because I don't know if Chinese laws require companies to provide customer support. If they are in a country who's laws require providing such support, you may have legal grounds to sue them.

[Ben321]

I received an email just before the support agreement expired, offering me another 3 years support and a calibration ... I accepted... They asked me for a company name, I just said I'm a Sole Trader using my own name, which is the actual situation, and they were happy with this.

Then clearly that is a business purchase, and you would not be covered by any consumer legislation (e.g. right to return mail ordered goods within a limited period, without giving a reason). I'm pretty sure that's what this whole thing is about. Keysight presumably have decided that consumers are given so many rights, that it is not worth the potential problems and costs of handling such customers. By limiting sales to businesses, they will be much more able to set the terms and conditions to their liking. While they may have reckoned that losing the few consumer sales they used to have was a price worth paying, it is less obvious whether they have correctly factored in the loss of goodwill of such a decision, especially where such (potential) consumers influence businesses.

What is a sole trader?

[wasedadoc]

A sole trader is another term for a "one man business". (Or one woman business.)

[BillyO]

If it's a Chinese company though, you may be out of luck, because I don't know if Chinese laws require companies to provide customer support.

You can't just paint all Chinese companies with the same brush  That is clearly Sino-bashing at a minimum.  Also, It has nothing to do with where the company is based or what they put in their fine print.  Support laws are dependent on the country the product is sold.  On top of that you have the companies wish to be recognized as a good partner (or not).  I can guarantee you can find an abundance of US and European companies that could not give a rat's ass about customer service.

Here in Canada, if Keysight import and sell a scope to the dishwasher at the local greasy spoon through official channels they are on the hook for a minimum of one year, and yes, you can drag them through court and yes they will loose.  The law is unambiguous.

As for support from Chinese companies. Tuesday last week I filled in a support request form on Siglent's NA site at 9:30 A.M. and at 11:20 A.M I got a personal phone call from a technician in Ohio.  That's less than 2 hours response time - for an old hobbyist.  Do you think you will get that from Keysight or Tek?  Dream on.

[luma]

I wonder if this might also allow them to move from Part 15 to Part 18 for FCC compliance.

[BillyO]

I wonder if this might also allow them to move from Part 15 to Part 18 for FCC compliance.

They have probably never aimed for part 15 compliance.  It could be so they don't get into a situation where they will be held responsible for not meeting the requirements of part 15.  "We told them not to do it!"

[coppice]

What is a sole trader?

Mephistopheles...... or is the the other spelling of sole?

[tv84]

A sole trader is another term for a "one man business". (Or one woman business.)

... or a transgender business!

[Ed.Kloonk]

Starting to sound like a Monty Python skit.

[switchabl]

They have probably never aimed for part 15 compliance.  It could be so they don't get into a situation where they will be held responsible for not meeting the requirements of part 15.  "We told them not to do it!"

There are actually some exemptions for "industrial, commerical, or medical test equipment" (15.103) and more generally EMC requirements for non-residential use are less strict (class A devices).

[aeberbach]

What is a sole trader?

They used to be called fishmongers 

[themadhippy]

They used to be called fishmongers

cobblers

[Bud]

The term in Canada is "sole proprietorship"

[jjoonathan]

US too.

[PixieDust]

What's the difference between a maker and a business?

[TERRA Operative]

Paperwork so you can pay the government their taxes.