Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist

[nctnico]

The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.

No, not at all. The educational market are schools and universities that buy low cost test equipment in bulk to outfit student labs. There is nothing 'hobby' about that.

[coppice]

The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.

Pushing tools not sold to private individuals as "Educational" stinks of bait-and-switch trickery to me.

How so? Its just facing reality. The main markets for low end instruments are education and production test. The main markets for high end instruments are labs. Labs buy some low end instruments, often greater quantities than they buy of the exotic instruments. Some production test requires exotic instruments. However, you name things by the dominant market. Keysight doesn't claim anything they make is for hobby use, and they don't want to engage in the kind of support that selling to consumers brings.

[Someone]

The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.

Pushing tools not sold to private individuals as "Educational" stinks of bait-and-switch trickery to me.

Keysight never? directly mentioned the "maker" or hobby market when they promoted the low cost scopes (cant find any of their first party communications with something like that), but they were sure happy to sit by while others pushed that space:

The Keysight’s InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes has been developed for price conscious electronic design engineers, students and hobbyists,

In Australia manufacturers are not allowed to hide themselves behind distributors or retailers when dealing with warranty or service claims. But thats from consumer protection laws which have broad applicability, even in B2B transactions.

[SMB784]

The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.

No, not at all. The educational market are schools and universities that buy low cost test equipment in bulk to outfit student labs. There is nothing 'hobby' about that.

Having worked in an academic environment at the second largest university in the US for nearly a decade years, this is mostly wrong.

I can think of only once that a bulk purchase of entry level test equipment was done, and that was when they opened the new engineering building near the end of my time there and kitted out a couple teaching labs with scopes, meters, & power supplies.

All other purchases that I ever was party to or had knowledge of were for less than 10 units at a time, usually less than 4. This is indistinguishable from the hobbyist market. Other then one initial bulk purchase, the remainder of orders are for replacements or individual use cases, all of which would require some level of warranty service that is no longer being offered to the hobbyist, and frankly I'm pretty sure soon won't be available for the education market either for similar reasons.

[coppice]

The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.

No, not at all. The educational market are schools and universities that buy low cost test equipment in bulk to outfit student labs. There is nothing 'hobby' about that.

Having worked in an academic environment at the second largest university in the US for nearly a decade years, this is mostly wrong.

I can think of only once that a bulk purchase of entry level test equipment was done, and that was when they opened the new engineering building near the end of my time there and kitted out a couple teaching labs with scopes, meters, & power supplies.

All other purchases that I ever was party to or had knowledge of were for less than 10 units at a time, usually less than 4. This is indistinguishable from the hobbyist market. Other then one initial bulk purchase, the remainder of orders are for replacements or individual use cases, all of which would require some level of warranty service that is no longer being offered to the hobbyist, and frankly I'm pretty sure soon won't be available for the education market either for similar reasons.

Having visited a number of universities its very common for undergraduate labs to have many of the exact same model of an oscilloscope or multimeter, which all look the same age.

[Caliaxy]

The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.

Pushing tools not sold to private individuals as "Educational" stinks of bait-and-switch trickery to me.

Keysight never? directly mentioned the "maker" or hobby market when they promoted the low cost scopes (cant find any of their first party communications with something like that), but they were sure happy to sit by while others pushed that space:

The Keysight’s InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes has been developed for price conscious electronic design engineers, students and hobbyists,

In Australia manufacturers are not allowed to hide themselves behind distributors or retailers when dealing with warranty or service claims. But thats from consumer protection laws which have broad applicability, even in B2B transactions.

Keysight aside, it seems that everything sold by element15/newark/farnell etc. is intended for business customers only. On the page you linked, scroll down to "Terms of Purchase", click on the link then on the new page scroll down a bit to section 2 ("Business Customers"). It reads:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2. Business customers
The Company is a business to business supplier. The Catalogue and any specialogues and other product brochures produced by the Company are intended for use by business customers and not consumers. By ordering, the Customer confirms that he, she or it wishes to obtain the Supplies for the purposes of his, her or its business and not as a consumer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

https://uk.farnell.com/terms-of-purchase

[SMB784]

The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.

No, not at all. The educational market are schools and universities that buy low cost test equipment in bulk to outfit student labs. There is nothing 'hobby' about that.

Having worked in an academic environment at the second largest university in the US for nearly a decade years, this is mostly wrong.

I can think of only once that a bulk purchase of entry level test equipment was done, and that was when they opened the new engineering building near the end of my time there and kitted out a couple teaching labs with scopes, meters, & power supplies.

All other purchases that I ever was party to or had knowledge of were for less than 10 units at a time, usually less than 4. This is indistinguishable from the hobbyist market. Other then one initial bulk purchase, the remainder of orders are for replacements or individual use cases, all of which would require some level of warranty service that is no longer being offered to the hobbyist, and frankly I'm pretty sure soon won't be available for the education market either for similar reasons.

Having visited a number of universities its very common for undergraduate labs to have many of the exact same model of an oscilloscope or multimeter, which all look the same age.

Sure, and they all get replaced about once per decade.

[Nominal Animal]

The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.

Pushing tools not sold to private individuals as "Educational" stinks of bait-and-switch trickery to me.

How so? Its just facing reality.

So is bending over when someone bigger than you wants to bugger you in the arse.

The main markets for low end instruments are education and production test.

How do you define "education" as a market, when considering tools specifically?  That is my point.

(And I think you are using instruments because you don't want to think of other tools at similar price ranges that are common in e.g. vocational schools.)

It is very common for interested students to obtain the same tools they use at school for their own use, so they get getter at their use, and because they want to get better at what they're studying by doing their own hobby projects.

But the key stinky bit to me is, if you want students to use your tools, why would you not want skilled hobbyists to use those tools also?  What the hell kind of a business model is it that makes a difference between the two?  It is common for the same tools sold on to hobbyists ("consumer market") to cost much more, sure; but that's not what Keysight is doing.  They could, but they don't want to.  Why?  (That's a rhetorical question.  I'm not interested in yours and others' further speculation on the reason, there's enough of it in this thread already.  Point being, Keysight is not telling us the reason they don't want to sell (at higher prices) to hobbyists and other private consumers.)

[tautech]

The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.

Pushing tools not sold to private individuals as "Educational" stinks of bait-and-switch trickery to me.

Keysight never? directly mentioned the "maker" or hobby market when they promoted the low cost scopes (cant find any of their first party communications with something like that), but they were sure happy to sit by while others pushed that space:

The Keysight’s InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes has been developed for price conscious electronic design engineers, students and hobbyists,

In Australia manufacturers are not allowed to hide themselves behind distributors or retailers when dealing with warranty or service claims. But thats from consumer protection laws which have broad applicability, even in B2B transactions.

Keysight aside, it seems that everything sold by element15/newark/farnell etc. is intended for business customers only. On the page you linked, scroll down to "Terms of Purchase", click on the link then on the new page scroll down a bit to section 2 ("Business Customers"). It reads:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2. Business customers
The Company is a business to business supplier. The Catalogue and any specialogues and other product brochures produced by the Company are intended for use by business customers and not consumers. By ordering, the Customer confirms that he, she or it wishes to obtain the Supplies for the purposes of his, her or its business and not as a consumer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

https://uk.farnell.com/terms-of-purchase

Oh for heavens sakes …. Farnell and E14 need boycotting too until they come to their senses.

[Someone]

The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.

Pushing tools not sold to private individuals as "Educational" stinks of bait-and-switch trickery to me.

Keysight never? directly mentioned the "maker" or hobby market when they promoted the low cost scopes (cant find any of their first party communications with something like that), but they were sure happy to sit by while others pushed that space:

The Keysight’s InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes has been developed for price conscious electronic design engineers, students and hobbyists,

In Australia manufacturers are not allowed to hide themselves behind distributors or retailers when dealing with warranty or service claims. But thats from consumer protection laws which have broad applicability, even in B2B transactions.

Keysight aside, it seems that everything sold by element15/newark/farnell etc. is intended for business customers only. On the page you linked, scroll down to "Terms of Purchase", click on the link then on the new page scroll down a bit to section 2 ("Business Customers"). It reads:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2. Business customers
The Company is a business to business supplier. The Catalogue and any specialogues and other product brochures produced by the Company are intended for use by business customers and not consumers. By ordering, the Customer confirms that he, she or it wishes to obtain the Supplies for the purposes of his, her or its business and not as a consumer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://uk.farnell.com/terms-of-purchase

As I mentioned, specific to that example and bolded above, they can say whatever they like in their terms. Australian consumer law cannot be disclaimed/avoided and still applies to B2B transactions:

When you buy goods or services for your business which are:
under $100,000
over $100,000 and normally bought for personal, domestic or household use or consumption
[or,] vehicles and trailers used mainly to transport goods on public roads
your business will be considered a consumer and entitled to certain remedies under the consumer guarantees if something goes wrong.

So regardless if the transaction between a customer and element14 was considered as a business customer or a consumer, the important protections of the manufacturer being required to honour the warranty (and extended consumer protections) apply. The manufacturer cannot change their policy to avoid the obligations, its a mandatory legal requirement (in Australia) the customer gets to choose who they deal with for warranty repair/replacement

[Someone]

Oh for heavens sakes …. Farnell and E14 need boycotting too until they come to their senses.

Many suppliers used to be trade only, but got sucked in by the lure of automation making small/consumer sales profitable. They're now remembering why they didn't do small sales and going back to the old days. Be happy you got access to their supply chain while you did (thinking here to the threads complaining about minimum order sizes for free shipping....).

[nctnico]

Point being, Keysight is not telling us the reason they don't want to sell (at higher prices) to hobbyists and other private consumers.)

Try buying a piece of test equipment from R&S, Lecroy, Tektronix, etc directly as a hobbyist. You won't be able to. Even a small business won't be able to. They'll all refer you to a dealer. You can buy any piece of test equipment you like as a hobbyist just fine from a reseller that sells to individuals. There are plenty of those around!

[Nominal Animal]

Point being, Keysight is not telling us the reason they don't want to sell (at higher prices) to hobbyists and other private consumers.)

Try buying a piece of test equipment from R&S, Lecroy, Tektronix, etc directly as a hobbyist. You won't be able to. Even a small business won't be able to. They'll all refer you to a dealer.

So? Their answer is exactly the same for a small University or vocational school trying to buy a few scopes, as it is to a private hobbyist or a small company.  Keysight stands out by their behaviour here.  What is your point?

[nctnico]

The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.

No, not at all. The educational market are schools and universities that buy low cost test equipment in bulk to outfit student labs. There is nothing 'hobby' about that.

Having worked in an academic environment at the second largest university in the US for nearly a decade years, this is mostly wrong.

I can think of only once that a bulk purchase of entry level test equipment was done, and that was when they opened the new engineering building near the end of my time there and kitted out a couple teaching labs with scopes, meters, & power supplies.

That is only one university. There are hundreds of schools and universities in a reasonably sized country and all of those replace equipment in their labs every X years. A few years ago a large educational center in the US went bankcrupt and Ebay got flooded with test equipment for months.

[nctnico]

Point being, Keysight is not telling us the reason they don't want to sell (at higher prices) to hobbyists and other private consumers.)

Try buying a piece of test equipment from R&S, Lecroy, Tektronix, etc directly as a hobbyist. You won't be able to. Even a small business won't be able to. They'll all refer you to a dealer.

So? Their answer is exactly the same for a small University or vocational school trying to buy a few scopes, as it is to a private hobbyist or a small company.  Keysight stands out by their behaviour here.  What is your point?

My point is people should quit whining because Keysight's behaviour doesn't stand out at all. If you do a little bit of research, you can easely find out for yourself.

[Nominal Animal]

Point being, Keysight is not telling us the reason they don't want to sell (at higher prices) to hobbyists and other private consumers.)

Try buying a piece of test equipment from R&S, Lecroy, Tektronix, etc directly as a hobbyist. You won't be able to. Even a small business won't be able to. They'll all refer you to a dealer.

So? Their answer is exactly the same for a small University or vocational school trying to buy a few scopes, as it is to a private hobbyist or a small company.  Keysight stands out by their behaviour here.  What is your point?

My point is people should quit whining because Keysight's behaviour doesn't stand out at all. If you do a little bit of research, you can easely find out for yourself.

And I'm telling you from the University/Education side, that you're wrong.  You'd know that, if you'd actually read the posts here, instead of repeating your own unfounded beliefs as facts.

[nctnico]

Point being, Keysight is not telling us the reason they don't want to sell (at higher prices) to hobbyists and other private consumers.)

Try buying a piece of test equipment from R&S, Lecroy, Tektronix, etc directly as a hobbyist. You won't be able to. Even a small business won't be able to. They'll all refer you to a dealer.

So? Their answer is exactly the same for a small University or vocational school trying to buy a few scopes, as it is to a private hobbyist or a small company.  Keysight stands out by their behaviour here.  What is your point?

My point is people should quit whining because Keysight's behaviour doesn't stand out at all. If you do a little bit of research, you can easely find out for yourself.

And I'm telling you from the University/Education side, that you're wrong.  You'd know that, if you'd actually read the posts here, instead of repeating your own unfounded beliefs as facts.

Did you ever buy a piece of test equipment? I'm doing that regulary and I have no trouble at all obtaining the equipment I want even as a tiny company. I have actual hands-on experience with the purchasing & support process and I'm telling you: there is way too much drama in this thread. There is always an equipment dealer around to sell you a piece of test equipment and support you whether you are a small business, educational institute, student, hobbyist or retiree.

[rsjsouza]

The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.

Pushing tools not sold to private individuals as "Educational" stinks of bait-and-switch trickery to me.

Keysight never? directly mentioned the "maker" or hobby market when they promoted the low cost scopes (cant find any of their first party communications with something like that), but they were sure happy to sit by while others pushed that space:

The Keysight’s InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes has been developed for price conscious electronic design engineers, students and hobbyists,

In Australia manufacturers are not allowed to hide themselves behind distributors or retailers when dealing with warranty or service claims. But thats from consumer protection laws which have broad applicability, even in B2B transactions.

Keysight clearly pushed that angle by giving away hundreds of units to the general market, as well as slipping oscilloscopes to Mehdi, Dave Jones and others to be distributed to a clear segment of the market that is mostly populated by individual customers. Not only that, but also gave away a multi-thousand dollar grand prize to the best project by popular vote, irrespective of professional status. This was so clear that this year there is absolutely no Keysight March events for the general public, as they clearly shifted their direction.

They are in their right to cut support to the mass market is a very demanding task, but they clearly catered to anyone that could fill a web form.

[Nominal Animal]

Point being, Keysight is not telling us the reason they don't want to sell (at higher prices) to hobbyists and other private consumers.)

Try buying a piece of test equipment from R&S, Lecroy, Tektronix, etc directly as a hobbyist. You won't be able to. Even a small business won't be able to. They'll all refer you to a dealer.

So? Their answer is exactly the same for a small University or vocational school trying to buy a few scopes, as it is to a private hobbyist or a small company.  Keysight stands out by their behaviour here.  What is your point?

My point is people should quit whining because Keysight's behaviour doesn't stand out at all. If you do a little bit of research, you can easely find out for yourself.

And I'm telling you from the University/Education side, that you're wrong.  You'd know that, if you'd actually read the posts here, instead of repeating your own unfounded beliefs as facts.

Did you ever buy a piece of test equipment? I'm doing that regulary and I have no trouble at all obtaining the equipment I want even as a tiny company. I have actual hands-on experience with the purchasing & support process and I'm telling you: there is way too much drama in this thread. There is always an equipment dealer around to sell you a piece of test equipment and support you whether you are a small business, educational institute, student, hobbyist or retiree.

Your entire argument is "I haven't experienced what you talk about, so you must be wrong and misinformed."
It seems that no rational argument will shake you off your unfounded beliefs.

[nctnico]

  Now you are putting more merit in hearsay rather than actual, hands-on experience! Like I wrote: drama all around.

Ofcourse things go wrong every now and then but if you drill a little bit deeper you'll find that most of the problems with service/support stem from not formulating a problem clear enough. Not unwillingness to provide support. Now for Keysight shifting support from their own support system to dealers has ticked some people off because they have to go somewhere else now; it doesn't mean the support isn't there for them.

[Oldtestgear]

Ofcourse things go wrong every now and then but if you drill a little bit deeper you'll find that most of the problems with service/support stem from not formulating a problem clear enough. Not unwillingness to provide support. Now for Keysight shifting support from their own support system to dealers has ticked some people off because they have to go somewhere else now; it doesn't mean the support isn't there for them.

Try getting a distributor to calibrate a 3458A or a 34470A. Not going to happen. I was happy to buy from a Keysight distributor when Keysight would perform a calibration for me as an individual. Had my DMMs calibrated regularly over the years until the change of policy.  Stopping support for an individual after tears is simply wrong.

[nctnico]

Ofcourse things go wrong every now and then but if you drill a little bit deeper you'll find that most of the problems with service/support stem from not formulating a problem clear enough. Not unwillingness to provide support. Now for Keysight shifting support from their own support system to dealers has ticked some people off because they have to go somewhere else now; it doesn't mean the support isn't there for them.

Try getting a distributor to calibrate a 3458A or a 34470A. Not going to happen. I was happy to buy from a Keysight distributor when Keysight would perform a calibration for me as an individual. Had my DMMs calibrated regularly over the years until the change of policy.  Stopping support for an individual after tears is simply wrong.

Have you tried MCS Testequipment? They offer calibration services and they have been selling test equipment through this forum so they seem to be open to dealing with individuals. I have bought several pieces of equipment from them. With sole proprietors not needing to register a business in the UK, it should be possible to find a test equipment dealer that can take care of calibrating your equipment.

[tindel]

I hardly ever post here, but I've been shocked to have a similar experience in the US.  Not exactly the same, and I'm fortunate to have a business in the US and have some leverage.  With that leverage, I'm trying to capture the ear of Keysight's leadership (CEO, COO, CFO, and Global Sales) to let them know how bad they are @%#ing up - literally targeting the people that built Keysight; the type of people Dave and Bill were; that go on to build the type of companies that Dave and Bill founded.

If you want to make sure your voice is heard (and hear more of my story) - post a short (1 or 2 lines) how Keysight @#$@ed you over here: https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/1ghz-scope.177949/#post-1721361.  Remember these are high level executives at one of the largest companies in the world - They don't have time to read your entire post.  They need cliff notes.

Let small voices make a loud noise!

Unfortunately, I myself don't have a lot more time to dedicate to this - so please spread the word and reach out if you want to help.

[porter]

I found this article from hp measure magazine.
Who would of guessed that engineers like to tinker in their spare time.

Home-built airplanes. Hobbyists build personal airplanes during their free time. Individualism. Hobby
https://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/publications/measure/pdf/1975_02.pdf#page=2

The entire catalog is here:
https://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/publications/measure/

I wonder if Keysight sells to their employees.

[Anthocyanina]

After I got my function generator from last years event, I started exploring all its functions and modes and found a bug, which I confirmed is not something wrong with my unit, but with the model. I went to report the bug because, well, it's something that should be fixed, and also because i thought it would be nice to let them know about it so they would fix it and other owners of the product wouldn't have to deal with it. their response is in this screenshot. Not only my name isn't Ryan Roth, but after replying that I'm not a corporate client, the ticket just got closed. I can live with the bug, I'm thankful for the generator i got for free, and it's still very usable, but I wonder what happens when a paying customer comes across this and tries to report it? 

Edit: here's the link to an EDU33212A review from element14. In the comments i mentioned the bug, and John Porter was able to replicate it with his unit https://community.element14.com/products/roadtest/b/blog/posts/sbe-edu33212a