Keysight Scary Letter

[Mr. Scram]

It sure is. Unfortunately, despite having much HPAK gear, I apparently don't have any qualifying equipment.

Yes, it's quite fascinating.

If anyone finds owning contraband and having to interact with Keysight to be too much of a burden, PM me to discuss potential gear trading.

Great minds think alike, that's what I offered to do earlier. I'll provide the service of taking ownership of the troublesome equipment, and moving them to a place outside of Keysight's legal reach if necessary.

[maginnovision]

It sure is. Unfortunately, despite having much HPAK gear, I apparently don't have any qualifying equipment.

Yes, it's quite fascinating.

If anyone finds owning contraband and having to interact with Keysight to be too much of a burden, PM me to discuss potential gear trading.

Great minds think alike, that's what I offered to do earlier. I'll provide the service of taking ownership of the troublesome equipment, and moving them to a place outside of Keysight's legal reach if necessary.

I think his idea was that he'd deal with keysight instead, reaping any benefits possible. Where you seem to be afraid they're going to break your door down and steal it.

[bitseeker]

Ding! Ding! Ding! maginnovision got it right. 

I've interacted with Keysight on many occasions for warranty claims, debugging hardware issues, buying parts, giving feedback on pre-release software, etc. I don't mind talking to them. When my U1252B went bad, they even hand delivered a replacement.

[Miti]

If Keysight cares about their reputation, they better replace the instruments with equivalent ones. You could be considered one of their customer since you own one of the instruments they built. The care for their reputation and for the customers needs go hand in hand.

Edit: This could be considered a recall.

[mnementh]

Since we're hosing the joint with conjecture, let me add some to the rain. 

HPAK had a fire in which important equipment, including developmental test subjects, were involved. These test subjects, by definition, are HPAK IP, hence the wording of the letters written by... lawyers. 

I'm going to try and read between the lines A LITTLE here... not too far from reality, but a good "educated guess", as I've worked with a few such e-Cycler operations in the past here in Texas.

I suspect that also involved was some documentation regarding which of those equipment were experimental and which were merely old may have been involved, even destroyed. So rather than risk any of this gear exposing anyone to any of a dozen different types of potential hazard; by having been modified so they no longer passed their electrical certifications (ANY change in the UI, input or power supply sections can void these certifications; the restrictions of those certifications are by nature very... restrictive) as they were experimental gear, or by dint of possible fire-related chemical/hazardous material contamination, or possibility of both, they decided to clean house with a broad broom and destroy ALL OF IT.

Third-party contractor gets the job... some poor fool working there sees dozens of pieces of gear he can only dream of owning... not greed, but simply "knowing what it is" and cringing at the idea of sending it to its grave... decides to "rescue" a few pieces as if it were a dumpster dive.

This guy maybe then trades or sells away some pieces afterwards, and they find their way back into the regular service chain... units that were supposedly destroyed. Now EVERY UNIT on that list of destroyed goods is suspect... and if there is a potential hazmat contamination scenario, HP could seriously be in some deep doo-doo. But the kicker is... aside from that list, the documentation, particularly CoC, is not trustworthy.

Hence the drama as it is playing out right now, and the fact they can't say any more.

I also don't expect Daniel to conform or deny any of this "educated guess". Because he can't.

And I'm not going to pursue it any further, as it is entirely conjecture.

Have fun. 

mnem
*tzzt*

[jjoonathan]

4/5. No aliens.

[mnementh]

Narrated by a TinkerDwagon. 

mnem
Alien anal probes? Where do I sign up?

[tggzzz]

I've interacted with Keysight on many occasions for warranty claims, debugging hardware issues, buying parts, giving feedback on pre-release software, etc. I don't mind talking to them. When my U1252B went bad, they even hand delivered a replacement.

40 years ago (gulp) HP was like that even with equipment that was out of warranty. They lent my company a chart recorder, when it went wrong just before an exhibition - twice.

[bitseeker]

Very cool. Times change, but all is not lost.

[Mr. Scram]

I think his idea was that he'd deal with keysight instead, reaping any benefits possible. Where you seem to be afraid they're going to break your door down and steal it.

There's very little chance of that happening, but I'd pay for the privilege.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

If Keysight cares about their reputation, they better replace the instruments with equivalent ones. You could be considered one of their customer since you own one of the instruments they built. The care for their reputation and for the customers needs go hand in hand.

Edit: This could be considered a recall.

I'm advocating for this approach, I think it would be best for everyone. However, for many of these items it's not necessarily a straightforward swap.

It's not a recall. Recalls are pretty well defined from a legal standpoint, both on what one is/isn't and what the recaller can/can't do or say.

[metrologist]

Am I allowed to participate if I did not receive a letter? What's the secret handshake?

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Am I allowed to participate if I did not receive a letter? What's the secret handshake?

I think you just have to go buy contraband test equipment

[jjoonathan]

I appreciate your restraint, but I'm pretty sure that was a 95% fair opportunity to shill scope month 

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

I appreciate your restraint, but I'm pretty sure that was a 95% fair opportunity to shill scope month 

You're right, it's like the marketing folks have taught me nothing!

I think you just have to go buy contraband test equipment

Sign up to win a free one! Much easier.

[Yansi]

... and then pay the $1000 VAT.   

For some of us, this is kind of hard unthinkable of, unfortunately.    (Not Keysights fault).

Still hoping for a happy end for those "contraband owners".

[KaneTW]

You don't pay VAT on free equipment. You don't pay any form of tax on it until you sell it.

[Brumby]

I wouldn't call it "free".  It is an exchange (if that's the route that will be taken).  You have to surrender one piece of equipment in order to receive the other.

I would suggest that, rather than speculate on the tax repercussions, you ask someone who would have the expertise to answer.

Edit: Note that the answer is likely going to be different for various parties, depending on their jurisdiction.

[EEVblog]

Just for the record, I finally got a response from Mr. Harrington on 2/13/2019:

Please forgive me for my delayed response. First, allow me to give you some background on the issue. Keysight Technologies was in possession of equipment that was scheduled to be destroyed, however the contractor charged with destroying the equipment did not do so. Instead, the equipment was somehow diverted and ended up for sale on eBay by Outback Equipment. We have been contacting buyers of products identified by Keysight as having been scheduled for destruction from a list of transactions furnished by Outback for the purpose of identifying where the equipment ended up and whether some pieces are still available for sale.

In sum, we are asking buyers a) if they ordered the equipment listed on Exhibit A to the correspondence; b) if the items they received match those listed on Exhibit A; and c) if they are still in possession of the items listed on Exhibit A. Unfortunately, I do not have any more information on the equipment beyond what is included on Exhibit A, but I have made note of your response, specifically regarding the reimaging of the drives, and I will discuss this with our team to see if we need anything further. Again, I apologize for the late response to your emails. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions on this matter.

Ah, thanks, that finally explains the whole saga and why it's Keysight who's coping the financial hit for this.

[bugi]

You don't pay VAT on free equipment. You don't pay any form of tax on it until you sell it.

I guess it depends on a particular country, but IIRC, according to EU stuff, one does pay VAT when importing free gifts, unless the value (i.e. an estimated if it was bought -value) is low enough. There are a whole number of rules and steps how (EU) customs are supposed to calculate/estimate the VAT for a product that was declared free/gift (or with unrealistic low price). If the item is something currently being sold, the case is easy for them, but they might not find the cheapest seller, so better to provide a good example by oneself on the paperwork.

For example, in Finland gifts of value 45€ or more (per item) need to be declared and VAT paid (probably also customs fees). (And details details, for certain product types, taxes are paid even for lower price products.)

However, in this case, there could be some ways to at least reduce the VAT since it could be considered a swap/replacement; "value added tax", sort of when something of value goes out, getting something of higher value back i.e. added value, but I've not heard/read of examples of such interpretation.  E.g. direct warranty repairs/replacements to the same product naturally wouldn't pay any taxes for the incoming replacement, but even that needs some extra paperwork with customs, etc.

[FERCSA]

However, in this case, there could be some ways to at least reduce the VAT since it could be considered a swap/replacement; "value added tax", sort of when something of value goes out, getting something of higher value back i.e. added value, but I've not heard/read of examples of such interpretation.  E.g. direct warranty repairs/replacements to the same product naturally wouldn't pay any taxes for the incoming replacement, but even that needs some extra paperwork with customs, etc.

That's right for warranty replacement/repair you don't have to pay any tax or import duty (no one mentioned it before). There is a specified section for it on the form, at least here. Including that you get a newer replacement, but you'll need a proof like the original invoice for custom processing.

Also don't forget Keysight has offices in the EU, like in Amsterdam or Les Ulis(Paris) for example. They can take care of your VAT or at least the custom's paperwork if needed, then you have to pay them afterward. They took care of mine in a different case and I didn't have to wrestle with the local authorities, I'm thankful for that.

[bd139]

Just a point with HMRC here. Usually they charge you anyway and you have to claim it back. This is because whoever sends it NEVER uses the correct HS codes and fills the declaration out wrong. This is a big PITA

[Jwalling]

Here's another interesting thing or two.

I found the original Ebay listing and grabbed a picture of the rear. The serial # is blacked out. Also, note the lack of an XP COA on the rear of the unit. The COA is actually on the top cover which I've never seen done before - and I've seen a LOT of these over the last 10 years or so...

The first picture shows the picture on Ebay. The second two are pictures I just took now. I highlighted the ding/chipped paint which matches the original Ebay picture, as well as the unusual placement of a sticker on the GPIB cards bayonet.

[Nusa]

Blacking out the serial number is a fail if one doesn't also black out the bar code version of it.

But it does suggest that the seller knew that unit wasn't supposed to be sold.

[Fraser]

It would be interesting to check whether the eBay seller always blacks out the serial number on equipment for reasons best known to themselves, or whether it was just the ‘dodgy’ kit. If the latter, it suggests the seller was well aware that the kit should not be sold and was hiding the serial numbers from potentially interested parties. I get a little suspicious when I see serial numbers removed or covered on a single item listing. I am aware that on multi item listings sellers are worried about people demanding to receive the pictured item with its appropriate serial number.

Unusual COA and other ID label positions are what I have come to expect on equipment that is Pre-production. At that point in the development/design process the final label location plan for the production line may not have been created. A classic example is FCC approval labelling. Sometimes the FCC want the label placed in a certain location or a different size.

I would have expected a ‘special’ or pre production equipment to have been appropriately labelled and possibly an unusual ‘R&D’ serial number assigned to it, rather than production labelling and serial numbering. Such kit often has OEM specific asset tags as well but these may have been removed upon disposal as part of the cradle to grave tracking.

I do not disbelieve the Keysight Fire story but I remain a little bemused as to why all this old, redundant kit was kept all these years. Storage costs money and unless they were Museum artefacts would normally go to scrap at an agreed point in time. If they were intended as some sort of Museum artefacts, then why sanction their destruction due to a bit of smoke and foaming agent damage ..... that would be part of their history. All very weird and not what I would expect of HPAK. In my job we got internally charged for each cubic metre of holding stores we used as someone had to manage and operate the storage facility. Why waste expensive storage on ‘junk’ ?

Fraser