Keysight Scary Letter

[MadTux]

Over at some German forum, someone bought repair parts for an VNA.
There, they argue that the seller was not supposed/allowed to sell these parts. Since these parts had no EPROMs inside, the vague copyright argument doesn't work there.
So the copyright stuff is only farce to get stuff back/off the market.
Thereby the "instruments from NSA/CIA/other secret organization" theory get more and more plausible

[MaxFrister]

I wonder if we could learn something of the history of the equipment.  Often old equipment comes with multiple stickers identifying the calibration lab, last cal. date, and sometimes even an asset tag that identifies the company.

To those of you who have received the "letter", was there any identifying information on the machines? 

[Stray Electron]

  Not on the one(s) that I dealt with.  I'm very familiar with those stickers and I know how hard they are to get off. This one(s) never had any stickers.  One piece came with a letter showing where it had been repaired by HP and returned to another HP division.  It doesn't look like it was ever taken out of the box again except to photograph it.  It included all of the cables, manuals, disk, adapters, etc and everything was still factory sealed except one probe. No dust on it anywhere or in the fan vent, no wear or grime on the buttons, etc.  Except for the one opened cable, it looked factory new.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Good news everyone! I can finally clear this up a bit, here's the official statement.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Recently, Keysight contacted a number of people who bought Keysight Technologies (Keysight), Agilent Technologies (Agilent), and Hewlett Packard (HP) branded equipment from Outback Equipment Company (Outback) or downstream resellers.  Some of the letters were from both Keysight and Outback.  There has been speculation about the reason behind the letters so we would like to clarify the situation.   

Keysight traces its electronic measurement roots back through Agilent to the 1939 founding of HP.  Over the years, we have collected many pieces of equipment that were never meant for resale, including units that have gone through some potentially destructive mechanical, environmental, and electrical test procedures, development test beds, alpha/beta units in some cases with customer or Keysight IP, defective units used for failure analysis, counterfeit units and the like.  When we became Keysight, much of this not-for-sale equipment was moved to our headquarters in Santa Rosa. 

In October 2017, Keysight’s headquarters buildings were severely damaged by wildfires. You can see video evidence here:  https://abc7news.com/keysight-technologies-buildings-destroyed-by-north-bay-fire/2513582/.  As a result, the equipment sustained additional smoke damage and Keysight felt it needed to be destroyed.  We hired a company to destroy it, received certificates of destruction & recycling, and believed the destruction was complete.  Unfortunately, the equipment was not destroyed and somehow made its way to the used market.  If you received a letter from us, you have one of these units.

Keysight, with the cooperation of Outback, is trying to get the equipment back so it can be destroyed as it should have been in the first place.  Keysight is not trying to get the equipment back to sell it, nor are we attempting to stifle the secondhand market for our equipment.  If it had not been for the fires, and the subsequent failure of Keysight’s contractor to destroy the equipment, the equipment would not be in circulation at all. 

We know our equipment is valued on the secondhand market in large part because of our reputation for building precise, high-quality, and highly reliable equipment.  We take pride in this reputation.  For the many reasons listed, the equipment we chose to destroy was not intended for sale and has the potential to damage our hard-earned reputation.

If you have received such a letter, we will be in touch shortly.  In the meantime, if you have questions, please contact:

Vincent Harrington, Durie Tangri LLP, vharrington@durietangri.com

Thank you for your understanding.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

I recognize that the above statement doesn't speak to what we will offer to people who receive the letter and help out, but I stand by my earlier statement that we won't "go crazy or anything like that."

I don't know any specifics but am confident that if you got a letter it won't be a bad thing to respond.

This should also help explain why some of the equipment in question isn't HPAK - we often acquire other vendor's gear for various reasons. You should see my bench 

[zitt]

Well. Well. Well. This just changed my mind. A little bit of communication goes a long way to disuade the F.U.D, I had.
Now to find some time to actually respond.

[maginnovision]

At least now(maybe) the paranoia will die down. The absolute  of it was really giving me a headache reading the conspiracies.

[Mrt12]

From what has been said, it would seem participating in this campaign is going to be worth your time.  Our best guess is there might be some exchange of equipment and/or possibly some cash consideration ... but our guessing suggests the value of the item won't be what you paid for it - but will represent it's current condition - so if you've repaired it, then its value will be consistent with a functional device, not what you paid.

I even believe that they are planning for some refund or so, but I am not interested in any money. I collect old HP equipment because my hobby is to build/repair various electronic projects, I am a radio amateur. If I send them my repaired item back, I probably get refunded with 100$ or so - and with this money I cannot do anything, because a similar device would cost probably more and they are rare (and remember I was lucky enough to find a defective device and was able to repair it). Further, since the device is no longer in production or support, Keysight is not even able to give me a replacement - I would be surprised if they give away some of their brand new VNAs / SAs / whatever in exchange for a 30 yrs old box.

I wonder if we could learn something of the history of the equipment.  Often old equipment comes with multiple stickers identifying the calibration lab, last cal. date, and sometimes even an asset tag that identifies the company.

To those of you who have received the "letter", was there any identifying information on the machines? 

No ID tag or so on my box. But it was in quite bad shape (ugly, dirty, scratches all over the place and such). I cleaned it carefully, restored some of the painting and other stuff - was quite a bit of work :-). I want my equipment to look like it is brand new.

Recently, Keysight contacted a number of people who bought Keysight Technologies (Keysight), Agilent Technologies (Agilent), and Hewlett Packard (HP) branded equipment from Outback Equipment Company (Outback) or downstream resellers.  Some of the letters were from both Keysight and Outback.  There has been speculation about the reason behind the letters so we would like to clarify the situation.   

Keysight traces its electronic measurement roots back through Agilent to the 1939 founding of HP.  Over the years, we have collected many pieces of equipment that were never meant for resale, including units that have gone through some potentially destructive mechanical, environmental, and electrical test procedures, development test beds, alpha/beta units in some cases with customer or Keysight IP, defective units used for failure analysis, counterfeit units and the like.  When we became Keysight, much of this not-for-sale equipment was moved to our headquarters in Santa Rosa. 

In October 2017, Keysight’s headquarters buildings were severely damaged by wildfires. You can see video evidence here:  https://abc7news.com/keysight-technologies-buildings-destroyed-by-north-bay-fire/2513582/.  As a result, the equipment sustained additional smoke damage and Keysight felt it needed to be destroyed.  We hired a company to destroy it, received certificates of destruction & recycling, and believed the destruction was complete.  Unfortunately, the equipment was not destroyed and somehow made its way to the used market.  If you received a letter from us, you have one of these units.

Keysight, with the cooperation of Outback, is trying to get the equipment back so it can be destroyed as it should have been in the first place.  Keysight is not trying to get the equipment back to sell it, nor are we attempting to stifle the secondhand market for our equipment.  If it had not been for the fires, and the subsequent failure of Keysight’s contractor to destroy the equipment, the equipment would not be in circulation at all. 

We know our equipment is valued on the secondhand market in large part because of our reputation for building precise, high-quality, and highly reliable equipment.  We take pride in this reputation.  For the many reasons listed, the equipment we chose to destroy was not intended for sale and has the potential to damage our hard-earned reputation.

If you have received such a letter, we will be in touch shortly.  In the meantime, if you have questions, please contact:

Vincent Harrington, Durie Tangri LLP, vharrington@durietangri.com

Thank you for your understanding.

Sorry Daniel, but I cannot believe you for 100%. Instead I simply have the feeling that Keysight wants the old HP gear off the market to sell their new stuff.

I recognize that the above statement doesn't speak to what we will offer to people who receive the letter and help out, but I stand by my earlier statement that we won't "go crazy or anything like that."

I don't know any specifics but am confident that if you got a letter it won't be a bad thing to respond.

How can we be sure that replying to the Email won't bring further troubles?

[bitseeker]

Recently, Keysight contacted a number of people who bought Keysight Technologies (Keysight), Agilent Technologies (Agilent), and Hewlett Packard (HP) branded equipment from Outback Equipment Company (Outback) or downstream resellers.  Some of the letters were from both Keysight and Outback.  There has been speculation about the reason behind the letters so we would like to clarify the situation.   

...

In October 2017, Keysight’s headquarters buildings were severely damaged by wildfires. You can see video evidence here:  https://abc7news.com/keysight-technologies-buildings-destroyed-by-north-bay-fire/2513582/.  As a result, the equipment sustained additional smoke damage and Keysight felt it needed to be destroyed.  We hired a company to destroy it, received certificates of destruction & recycling, and believed the destruction was complete.  Unfortunately, the equipment was not destroyed and somehow made its way to the used market.

...

Yes, I remember the fires. There were also historical artifacts lost. A sad day, indeed.

Well, this turned out more interesting than I was expecting. Thanks for gathering the info and, as always, for being a great spokesperson for Keysight, even when it's not about 'scopes.

This should also help explain why some of the equipment in question isn't HPAK - we often acquire other vendor's gear for various reasons. You should see my bench 

Bonus points for self-referencing as HPAK.

Meanwhile, I await your pics in the Whats your Work-Bench/lab look like? Post some pictures of your Lab thread!

[TheSteve]

I came across this great article which speaks to what kind of company Keysight is internally.
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/business/8213147-181/wildfire-recovery-well-under-way?sba=AAS

After such a horrible event the equipment not being destroyed properly was just another kick in the pants.

[MadTux]

What about sending everyone a big nice aluminium "HP internal prototype, potentially damaged by wildfire, not for serious use" tag?
I will happily rivet that tag on the back of my instrument and everyone knows what's up with the instrument and not to use it for very important tasks.

[Mrt12]

Are here any people outside the US who got that eMail? did you respond?

[djnz]

I am a little surprised by the "we are doing this to protect our reputation" explanation.

If I were to have an old HPAK item that I bought on ebay and I found that it did not perform according to specs or expectations, I'd probably suspect that there was some kind of failure happening in _my_ unit, and would not consider Keysight's hard earned reputation as damaged. Would other people think differently?

[HighVoltage]

In October 2017, Keysight’s headquarters buildings were severely damaged by wildfires.

So, my earlier guess that it had to do with the fire was not far off.

Thanks for a great statement.
I will continue to buy your used test gear with confidence now and no worries to receive a letter from a Keysight attorney.

[LapTop006]

This should also help explain why some of the equipment in question isn't HPAK - we often acquire other vendor's gear for various reasons. You should see my bench 

[sokoloff]

Thanks for the update, Daniel! 

[sokoloff]

I am a little surprised by the "we are doing this to protect our reputation" explanation.

I'm not. It makes sense to me.

If I were to have an old HPAK item that I bought on ebay and I found that it did not perform according to specs or expectations, I'd probably suspect that there was some kind of failure happening in _my_ unit, and would not consider Keysight's hard earned reputation as damaged. Would other people think differently?

I would think the same way, but let's think about why we would assume that's the case?

Because in general, HPAK has a well-earned reputation for putting out solid products that are supportable and supported for many, many years after sale.

How did they get that reputation? In large part by not letting crap or sub-standard products out the back door as "fell off the truck" merchandise.

[sokoloff]

It's also the case that it costs them less than it would cost you or I to destroy some marginal equipment rather than refurb and resell or cross-fingers and resell, because of the chance that, by destroying that equipment, they'll make one more new product sale than they otherwise would.

None of that has any bearing on whether they first attempted to do the right thing (destroy old, possibly fire/smoke damaged equipment) or whether they're trying to do the right thing now by offering to retire that equipment in exchange for some compensation that's acceptable to the current owner. That owner is still entitled to keep the equipment (IMO, but IANAL) with the full knowledge of its history, or negotiate for whatever compensation is mutually acceptable.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Seems a lot of effort to get rid of some possibly substandard equipment in the used market, howver I suspect the bill for all this, whatever it comes to,  may end up with the company that were supposed to destroy the equipment.

[sokoloff]

Given what responsible e-waste companies charge for their services, I won’t shed a tear for them. If the facts are as laid out above, it’s 100% their fault.

[rhodges]

If I were to have an old HPAK item that I bought on ebay and I found that it did not perform according to specs or expectations, I'd probably suspect that there was some kind of failure happening in _my_ unit, and would not consider Keysight's hard earned reputation as damaged. Would other people think differently?

I do. In the early 1990's, I had my only experience with HP scopes. They were crap. The triggers were bad, and probably other things. They were unusable.

Fortunately, I got a Tek 544 for a song, and my boss agreed to let me bring it in. The Tek scope worked beautifully. Later, I got a Tek 465, and later yet, a 2465. All did exactly what they should.

Even two and a half decades later, my bad experience left scorch marks on my brain. HP == CRAP.  (The scopes, that is. I still love my HP calculators!)

So yes, this is a real thing and I understand why they would guard their reputation by removing suspect units.

[mikeselectricstuff]

If I were to have an old HPAK item that I bought on ebay and I found that it did not perform according to specs or expectations, I'd probably suspect that there was some kind of failure happening in _my_ unit, and would not consider Keysight's hard earned reputation as damaged. Would other people think differently?

I do. In the early 1990's, I had my only experience with HP scopes. They were crap. The triggers were bad, and probably other things. They were unusable.

HP scopes prior to the first Mixed-signal model and similar variants were terrible, and it took them many years for people to notice, meanwhile Tek got away with selling terrible outdated stuff for a long time,
.

[eKretz]

Recently, Keysight contacted a number of people who bought Keysight Technologies (Keysight), Agilent Technologies (Agilent), and Hewlett Packard (HP) branded equipment from Outback Equipment Company (Outback) or downstream resellers.  Some of the letters were from both Keysight and Outback.  There has been speculation about the reason behind the letters so we would like to clarify the situation.   

Keysight traces its electronic measurement roots back through Agilent to the 1939 founding of HP.  Over the years, we have collected many pieces of equipment that were never meant for resale, including units that have gone through some potentially destructive mechanical, environmental, and electrical test procedures, development test beds, alpha/beta units in some cases with customer or Keysight IP, defective units used for failure analysis, counterfeit units and the like.  When we became Keysight, much of this not-for-sale equipment was moved to our headquarters in Santa Rosa. 

In October 2017, Keysight’s headquarters buildings were severely damaged by wildfires. You can see video evidence here:  https://abc7news.com/keysight-technologies-buildings-destroyed-by-north-bay-fire/2513582/.  As a result, the equipment sustained additional smoke damage and Keysight felt it needed to be destroyed.  We hired a company to destroy it, received certificates of destruction & recycling, and believed the destruction was complete.  Unfortunately, the equipment was not destroyed and somehow made its way to the used market.  If you received a letter from us, you have one of these units.

Keysight, with the cooperation of Outback, is trying to get the equipment back so it can be destroyed as it should have been in the first place.  Keysight is not trying to get the equipment back to sell it, nor are we attempting to stifle the secondhand market for our equipment.  If it had not been for the fires, and the subsequent failure of Keysight’s contractor to destroy the equipment, the equipment would not be in circulation at all. 

We know our equipment is valued on the secondhand market in large part because of our reputation for building precise, high-quality, and highly reliable equipment.  We take pride in this reputation.  For the many reasons listed, the equipment we chose to destroy was not intended for sale and has the potential to damage our hard-earned reputation.

Sorry Daniel, but I cannot believe you for 100%. Instead I simply have the feeling that Keysight wants the old HP gear off the market to sell their new stuff.

OMG, this site seriously needs a *forehead smack* emoti-smiley. Do you really think they're expecting hobbyists to pony up for their new equipment? Come on... Many companies might have a hard time affording it. I believe the explanation given by Daniel is plausible, AND reasonable. I'm guessing they would like to get the equipment back and destroyed for the exact reasons he stated. If some folks would rather keep the gear with the full realization that it might be damaged goods I'm guessing they will have you sign a letter releasing then from liability or some such thing. Just in case the equipment could have a defect that could cause a fire in your home! Or electrocute you or a child in your home! Now do you maybe see why they might want these items destroyed? Sheesh, take off the tinfoil hat!

[Bicurico]

Some months ago I visited a customer. I cannot reveal the name and it doesn't matter.

I entered the premisses through the workers entrance, because they where constructing new buildings.
As I got picked up by my contact person at security, we had to walk across part of the campus and on the side of one of the buildings there was a cage and it immediatly caught my attention:

The cage was full of Rohde&Schwarz equipment - audio measurment test equipment. These are sold on European eBay for 500-1.500 Euro a piece.
I was looking at >20 devices piled up. There was other test equipment, too. All devices where in a good shape - after cleaning they would look as new and for sure they were not broken.

I asked what that cage was - it was kind of protected from the weather, but never the less outside.
I was told it was the dumpster!

So I asked right away: "Can I take one?", then I said "Can I take them all?". But next my overloaded mind realized I could not fit the whole lot in my car, so I asked again "Can I load as much as I can in my car?".

The answer to all those questions was "NO".

I was explained that this company had a contract with a scrap yard. They would come in and pick up the stuff.

So I asked what scrap yard, in order to contact the scrap yard.

At this moment, my interest was not reselling these devices for profit, but to actually own one and offer another for free to a friend who develops valve based audiophile amplifiers.

So I insisted and our contact person promised he would ask for permission for me to have a unit or to pick one up at the scrap yard.

A month later he called me and told me that there was no exception for me.

He explained that there was a contract for the scrap yard to DESTROY all units.

I asked why and he explained the best he could:

1) The company does not want to risk employees to take such device home and repair it by stealing parts/components of test equipment used in production. --> Makes sense to me.
2) The company does not want to risk former devices ending up at any competition or being used on side work by employees (working at home for third parties). --> Makes sense to me.
3) The company has to comply with tax law and those devices are written off and hence have to be legally destroyed in order to comply with the law. --> Hard to accept, but makes sense.

After some cold-minded reasoning, I can add a two more reasons:

1) The equipment was sold/leased by Rohde&Schwarz (or other TE producer) under certain terms that prohibit the resale of the equipment. I don't know if this is the case, but it is quite possible that you can purchase an equipment at a cheaper price if you submit to a contract that forbids you to resell the equipment.
2) The equipment may have had custom parameters, macros, routines, software or firmware loaded, which has intellectual property that may not be used by third parties.

Anyway, I still think of it with pain: a whole dumpster/metallic cage with >20 Rohde&Schwarz audio test devices... (not mentioning the exact model on purpose).

These were not broken: they were simply replaced by newer models.

I can imagine that the scrap yard would be in real trouble if they sold me one unit - they might risk their profitable scrapping deal and there may even be fines in the contract.

Because of this experience I have been following this thread with interest.

I still dream of this dumpster and being able to load the whole trunk of my car with them...

Regards,
Vitor