Keysight DMM - Yay or nay?

[mawyatt]

@Traceless,

Think you have only one option, that's get both the KS and DMM and decide for yourself 

I'll wager a brew that you'll end up keeping both 

BTW Dr Frank is one of the very very few I always listen too, never a hint of misinformation

Also, are you going to do an evaluation of the new 5200, maybe a peek inside

The DE-5000 use a special chip set that does all the heavy lifting, and does so very well indeed as various tests have shown (ours compares very well with the TH2830, in fact so good we are preparing adapters to allow all the Tonghui fixtures to work with DE-5000).

Best

[Electro Fan]

+1 for  ^ what mawyatt says ^

[Traceless]

Think you have only one option, that's get both the KS and DMM and decide for yourself 
I'll wager a brew that you'll end up keeping both 

+1 for  ^ what mawyatt says ^

I have to admit that thought crossed my mind for a split second, then I remembered what Mrs. Traceless would say about that:

BTW Dr Frank is one of the very very few I always listen too, never a hint of misinformation

I'll keep that in mind also many thanks to Dr. Frank for being such an awesome source of information.

Also, are you going to do an evaluation of the new 5200, maybe a peek inside

Tony was actually faster than me and did a very detailed full review including a look inside (link below). I can confirm it is a very nice unit, very good build quality, highly accurate. If you have any questions Tony didn't cover I'll gladly try to answer them to the best of my abilities.

Here is Tony's MCR 5200 sneak peek (he's going to open it about 17 minutes into the video):

[exmadscientist]

Think you have only one option, that's get both the KS and DMM and decide for yourself 

So we did this! Turns out both are pretty much interchangeable, so get whichever one you want. There may be minutely better specs on any given range for one meter, but they're close enough that I forgot which is which.

The 34465A is distinctly easier to take a quick measurement with. Somehow it always gets grabbed first if both meters are available on the shelf, and I think this is why.

The DMM6500's triggering system is far more powerful. You can do some really amazing things with it! Unfortunately, by the time you learn/remember how to use it, you'll probably be dead of old age. The graphing is similar. The little front and rear fuseholders are nice to have, I wish more instruments were done that way. This is objectively the "better" meter, thanks to that triggering system, but it seems to be most people's second choice.

As for faults, we've found a couple. The DMM6500 UI can crash. Not often, but it can. It doesn't always handle SCPI commands well, occasionally and repeatably barfing out weird errors it's not supposed to (and that the 34465A doesn't choke on). The 34465A, for its part, seems to have some isolation/leakage issues. But take that with a grain of salt, it was being used in a setup that seems to reliably get annoyed with even nA of leakage to earth. (We didn't try the DMM6500 there. Actually, we didn't really want to continue troubleshooting that problem at all.)

So, yeah. Get whichever one strikes your fancy, you won't regret it.

Though if you do get the 3446x, set the display background to black instead of blue... you'll thank me later.

[Hydron]

How long does the 34465A take to boot btw? I was choosing between the DMM6500 and the 34461A last year, and the eternity it seemed to take the 61A to boot in videos I saw online was a factor in going for the 6500 (it was also cheaper and had more features, and I'm glad I avoided KS in the end given their horrible and possibly illegal new attitude towards supporting private customers!)

I know that you should leave a meter warmed up for best accuracy, but you mentioned "take a quick measurement with". Probably a good excuse to have something like a 34401A/34410A floating about too, that's 3 meters now

[Cerebus]

Just timed my 34461A at 27 seconds from hitting the power button to the first measurement appearing. I doubt that they 34465A is much, if any different.

If you're waiting for it, it seems like an age. If you remember to turn it on before going to get appropriate test leads off the rack then it's generally ready by the time you are ready to plug them in.

[mawyatt]

29 seconds for KS34465A.

Best,

[jjoonathan]

DMM7510 -- 13 seconds

Vrooom! (At least by the standards of modern "needs an OS" instruments  )

[Traceless]

The 34465A is distinctly easier to take a quick measurement with. Somehow it always gets grabbed first if both meters are available on the shelf, and I think this is why. The DMM6500 ... is objectively the "better" meter, thanks to that triggering system, but it seems to be most people's second choice.

I guess that is the "familiarity factor" the Keysight has going for it. The UI just works the way everyone expects a multimeter to work, just from past experience. The DMM 6500 UI may even be more convenient and more intuitive to use especially when it comes to more advanced funtions, but it is very different so users don't feel immediately at home. Once one gets past that prejudice and the two major disadvantages of touch screens (namely dirty screen/fingerprits, no tactile feedback) I'm sure the DMM 6500 will be a very pleasant user experience.

But take that with a grain of salt, it was being used in a setup that seems to reliably get annoyed with even nA of leakage to earth

Considering my lab is not an ideal test environment I'd wager that setups that sensitive would be infeasible for me anyways.

Though if you do get the 3446x, set the display background to black instead of blue... you'll thank me later.

I'll keep that in mind thanks =)

I avoided KS in the end given their horrible and possibly illegal new attitude towards supporting private customers!

Yes I definitly dislike this attitude and that was one of the main reasons I started this discussion. One positive thing I can report in this regard: I contacted Keysight because of the free deep memory upgrade mentioned by Dr. Frank and Electro Fan earlier in this thread. The folks at Keysight were friendly and helpful so far and promised to inform me if/how that promotion can be used in case the meter is not directly purchased through their B2B distributors. Also others have mentioned that Keysight support would be great, so maybe things are different in Europe and the US?

I know that you should leave a meter warmed up for best accuracy, but you mentioned "take a quick measurement with".
Probably a good excuse to have something like a 34401A/34410A floating about too, that's 3 meters now

The temptation is definitly there but the bench is getting crammed already, if I give in to the dark side there will be zero space left to do actual work, because everything is occupied by test gear and I'll utimately have to sign up with TEA

@Cerebus, @mawyatt: Thanks for measuring, they really seem to have sped up the boot on the Keysight significantly. I was expecting worse. When Dave reviewed the Agilent 34461A it took around a minute to boot.

@jjoonathan: That is quick, so a plus for the DMM 6500 here.

[Hydron]

Just timed my DMM6500 as being between 16 and 17 seconds, so a little slower than the 7.5 digit version, but still significantly faster the KS (which I also though was a minute or so, which was pretty unacceptable, good to see it's now a bit quicker - did they change the OS or something due to winCE being canned by MS?)

My R&S scope is still the winner out in the "needs an OS" category at ~10 seconds - I wish more manufacturers would prioritise boot time. Then again, my ancient analogue-only tek current probe/amp are the clear losers in this race - if you're doing any sensitive work in DC coupled mode you have to give it a good half hour to warm up and stop drifting!

I'm pretty happy with my choice of DMM6500 btw - it's not perfect, but neither is the KS, and they have their own strengths and weaknesses.

[Traceless]

My R&S scope is still the winner out in the "needs an OS" category at ~10 seconds - I wish more manufacturers would prioritise boot time. Then again, my ancient analogue-only tek current probe/amp are the clear losers in this race - if you're doing any sensitive work in DC coupled mode you have to give it a good half hour to warm up and stop drifting!

To be honest I'm not really that worried about boot time. Usually when I go to my bench the first two steps are: 1. turn on DMM and 2. start my bench PC (which probably also takes something like 30s to boot up). So till I set up the DUT got all tools and stuff both devices will have booted. And as you said - if one really wants to do things properly the DMM should warm up for a lot longer than a minute. At that point boot time becomes negligible.

I'm pretty happy with my choice of DMM6500 btw - it's not perfect, but neither is the KS, and they have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Since you own the DMM 6500 - did yours come with a stylus? I tried to find a list of accessories in some online shops and the manual but didn't find any details.

[Hydron]

No stylus, but I've never missed one - the only gloves I ever use are thin nitrile so they work without issue. The UI is also designed for touch use so no elements too small to hit reliably with a fat finger.

Quick list of pros/cons of the 6500 if it helps:

Pros:
- was quite a bit cheaper here (UK) than KS equivalents (and I'm talking '61A, not even '65A!)
- fast digitisation, complex trigger options etc
- low ohms range is very sensitive (1uOhm resolution!)
- good sized screen, touch UI is reasonably well done, great for entering numerical parameters etc too
- can do great graphs etc, lots of memory for long logging sessions
- remote web UI etc (apparently KS's is/was some shit java thing)
- no KS professional-use-only bullshit. Would have been a con for higher Tek calibration cost but you can't even get one from KS anymore!
- scanner card option, including building custom DIY ones
- can run custom scripts, apps etc (though see below)
- no option keys needed for features - base model is the only model, with everything enabled
- reasonably fast boot time

Cons:
- no hard power switch, is a soft one and draws a few watts in standby
- screen viewing angle could be better (never unusable, just gets a little washed out)
- buying one supports Danaher (though I'd not want to support KS's new business model right now either)
- no direct buttons to change measurement function
- ohms mode can choke on inductive elements like transformer windings (v. annoying if you're measuring these regularly)
- deeper than KS unit (partly due to scanner option, so not a big criticism)
- some early units have transformer hum (as an ex-demo unit built in 2019 mine did, but Tek fixed it)
- 10A jack is rear terminals only
- app support is pretty much alpha-only, expect bugs (never had any major bug issues in normal use though)
- Tek currently are charging for their PC software, though I'd be unlikely to use it anyway

[Traceless]

@Hydron: Thanks for the awesome pros/cons list. It seems there are some styluses available for around 10 bucks, they are made for tablets but I guess they'll work fine for the DMM 6500.

I'm actually really surprised that so many here report they are either wearing thin nitril gloves or mostly no gloves at all. Personally I wear them mostly as cut/scratch protecton and to reduce skin contact with chemicals. However given the attention that is payed to position DMMs not next to other devices to minimize interferences, keeping ambient temperature constant, heating instruments up twisting DMM leads etc. I'd really have expected more here to wear "proper" gloves in order to reduce influence of body temperature on the probes. The human body temperature is way more than 10°C over lab ambient temperature. So the probes will warm up while you hold them and cool down while you put them on the bench. Normally I'd say it doesn't matter but within the super sensitive experiments some described here before it might do.

[mawyatt]

Having and using both the KS and DMM, the KS is always the easier to "goto" for just simple quick measurement for use. The DMM touch screen is time consuming to navigate, the KS wins hands down for initial ease of use. If even quicker measurements are required then the Fluke 87 or a couple 34401As are available (boot time <2s!!).

Regarding sensitive measurements, generally these should be performed without hand intervention or holding... this is what a variety of DMM probes with clip-on capability are for.

Best,

[Cerebus]

@Cerebus, @mawyatt: Thanks for measuring, they really seem to have sped up the boot on the Keysight significantly. I was expecting worse. When Dave reviewed the Agilent 34461A it took around a minute to boot.

It's that slow Australian electricity, the heat makes it sluggish at getting out of the wires. 

The firmware version on mine is A.03.00-02.40-03.00-00.52-01-01. Probably more recent than Dave's example, but also not the most recent.

That actually brings me to another point. I found the software update process a bit iffy, I had to have several goes at updating mine and was in mortal fear that I'd  bricked the thing at one point when it went unresponsive and had to be power cycled. Which is why I haven't yet got around to installing the latest firmware, I'm a little nervous of doing so. (I've actually just downloaded the latest firmware, so wish me luck.)

[Traceless]

It's that slow Australian electricity, the heat makes it sluggish at getting out of the wires. 

The poor electrons have to move upside down all day, i guess they just get nauseus - still good enough for austraila

That actually brings me to another point. I found the software update process a bit iffy, I had to have several goes at updating mine and was in mortal fear that I'd  bricked the thing at one point when it went unresponsive and had to be power cycled. Which is why I haven't yet got around to installing the latest firmware, I'm a little nervous of doing so. (I've actually just downloaded the latest firmware, so wish me luck.)

What is the firmware stored on? Any chance to reprogram it using a TL866 or a CH341A?

[Cerebus]

What is the firmware stored on? Any chance to reprogram it using a TL866 or a CH341A?

Internally? No idea. You just chuck the supplied firmware onto a USB stick and select firmware upgrade from the utility menu.

Upgraded to A.03.03 successfully and with no fuss, and now it take 29 seconds to boot, a whole 2 seconds longer than on the previous version I had on there.

[mawyatt]

Regarding Keysight CS, they haven't responded yet to an issue with the Web sever, and we have two doing the same thing. Everything else with Web servers works fine, just the KS34465As don't

Best,

[tautech]

Upgraded to A.03.03 successfully and with no fuss, and now it take 29 seconds to boot, a whole 2 seconds longer than on the previous version I had on there.

First boot after upgrade or those thereafter ?

I'm normally seeing first boot slower than normal after which the OS has its shit together with the new FW and back to normal with subsequent boots.

[Cerebus]

Upgraded to A.03.03 successfully and with no fuss, and now it take 29 seconds to boot, a whole 2 seconds longer than on the previous version I had on there.

First boot after upgrade or those thereafter ?

I'm normally seeing first boot slower than normal after which the OS has its shit together with the new FW and back to normal with subsequent boots.

I've been in this game too long to get caught out like that. 2nd boot, after it was all done, and dusted. Rebooted another time (after the reboot that's automatic during the firmware upgrade) to be sure that it had taken the update cleanly and then powered off again then rebooted to time it. It agrees precisely with mawyatt's 29 second boot which is what I'd expect (assuming that he was up to date on firmware whereas I most definitely was not).

[tautech]

Upgraded to A.03.03 successfully and with no fuss, and now it take 29 seconds to boot, a whole 2 seconds longer than on the previous version I had on there.

First boot after upgrade or those thereafter ?

I'm normally seeing first boot slower than normal after which the OS has its shit together with the new FW and back to normal with subsequent boots.

I've been in this game too long to get caught out like that. 2nd boot, after it was all done, and dusted. Rebooted another time (after the reboot that's automatic during the firmware upgrade) to be sure that it had taken the update cleanly and then powered off again then rebooted to time it. It agrees precisely with mawyatt's 29 second boot which is what I'd expect (assuming that he was up to date on firmware whereas I most definitely was not).

Yes we see first the boot taking longer than subsequent other than FW updates. Not ideal when this is the new owners first impression of their new instrument but sadly too few dealers go the the effort we do checking for FW updates and getting that first boot outta the way before shipping any instrument out.
First impressions count !

[Traceless]

Regarding Keysight CS, they haven't responded yet to an issue with the Web sever, and we have two doing the same thing. Everything else with Web servers works fine, just the KS34465As don't

In case I get the KS I could try if I can replicate the problem, can you tell what that symptoms are?

@Everyone: Yesterday I looked at the manuals of both the 34465A and the DMM 6500 and stumbled upon another disadvantage of the 34465A and just wanted to add that to the list of pros/cons: There is no way to set continuity mode thresholds on the 34465A, it is fixed at 10 Ohms (c.f. page 21). Below the threshold you get a beep, but if resistance is higher the meter just displays the resistance (of up to 1kOhm). The DMM 6500 lets you fully customize that.

[blackdog]

Hi,

Continuity
The continuity works well on the 3446xa DMM these days., I almost never use the continuity function 
A much more important point for the use of this function are the measuring probes you get with most multimeters, these are just not good...
The contact resistance is too high due to the oxidation process and therefore the continuity does not work properly and of course also the resistance measurement in the low values works therefore unreliable.
Here a picture of a set of probes that are good but there are of course more brands that are good, but the probes from Fluke, TEK, Keysight are not comparable with the Bryman B.T.C. probes that I have here.

And no they are not perfect, this due to use the layer of gold wears off the tip, but at other points of the probe tip it is still good, as is the unscrewable part which is very handy.


.

Display color
Yes, make the background black is a good tip.

Webinterface 34465a
I don't recall encountering any problems with this, but also haven't used this feature much.

Boot time
Most of the time this is not important, because you already know you are going to measure something before you need the DMM, just turn it on before you really want to measure.

the Keysight 3446xa series is usually well within its specification within 30 minutes.
But most measurements that will be done can be done with a 3.5 Digit DMM.
But that of course varies by user, more usually that will be correct for hobby use.

10-Ampere range
This large current range is hardly used by me.
When I do start measuring large currents, I take a hand DMM for that, but not everyone has that available.

Low resistance values
You can attach a lot of value to the function, but be aware that accurately measuring low resistance values is not easy.
This is also the case with 4-wire measurements, and you can only do that with 4-wire measurement method!

Mr. Seebeck is around every corner!

Kind regards,
Bram

[mawyatt]

Regarding Keysight CS, they haven't responded yet to an issue with the Web sever, and we have two doing the same thing. Everything else with Web servers works fine, just the KS34465As don't

In case I get the KS I could try if I can replicate the problem, can you tell what that symptoms are?

Here.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/web-issue-with-ks34465a/msg4032790/#msg4032790

Best,

[blackdog]

Hi mawyatt,

Based on the link you showed, something comes to mind that occurred with my 34465a DMM.
I was testing about half a year ago with a piece of software in my LAN to "wake up" computers, which for those who don't know is called W.O.L, Wake On Lan.

When I tried to wake up different computers to their M.A.C. address, the 34465a crashed.
There was no IP conflict in my LAN, so see if you are sending WOL packets within your network segment.
I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Bram