Keysight 1200X series "no replaceable parts are available"

[Porama6400]

as mentioned in the section 6 of their service manual:

Code: [Select]

Because the service policy for InfiniiVision 1200 X-Series and EDUX1052A/G
oscilloscopes is unit replacement, no replaceable parts are available for these
oscilloscopes.
Granted, it's my bad for not checking the service manual before buying.
but does it mean not even their service center can replace a board?

That's disappointing, no schematic, no block diagram, no board replacement, and not even a service center are allowed to fix the scope.
am I expected to buy a new one when a front panel button breaks, after I paid a premium price for a scope?

[Fraser]

Sadly this seems to be more and more common these days. Companies produce a product and decide it is cheaper to provide a complete replacement unit, rather than repair a fault. Labour costs and spare parts storage overheads are likely the reason. Whilst under warranty, this policy may be popular with both the manufacturer and the customer as a new unit is quickly issued. After warranty the customer is left with little choice but DIY repair or the purchase of a new unit. So many ‘consumer’ grade electronic products are comparatively low value these days and do not justify repair time being spent on them. I note that extended warranties are offered on many such equipments and this is really just an insurance policy to ensure repair/replacement after the standard warranty expires. If longer term repair support is desired, the customer has to buy the “support package”, sometimes at significant cost. I have dealt with companies who will not answer queries or supply user manuals unless you have a current “support package” on their accounting system. This is likely intended to offset the cost of providing customer support. An understandable position for some companies, but not particularly customer friendly.

As a side note, I bought some Hewlett Packard LogicDart handheld logic analysers a few years ago. They were being disposed of after HP ceased support for the unit. The units were brand new but had a label on them stating “Refurbished”. They were the units that would be sent to customers making warranty repair claims. HP supplied “Refurbished” LogicDarts under such circumstances rather than repair the customers unit. It made economic sense for HP to do this. No idea why HP decided to place “Refurbished” labels on brand new units coming off the production line, but it may have been in line with the issuing of more valuable equipment that really was refurbished, rather than new.

I always disliked support policies that issued “Refurbished” equipment when I made a warranty claim. I preferred repair of my unit or ‘new for old’ policies as I take great care of my kit and if it failed soon after purchase I did not want some unknown usage hours unit replacing it. Not all manufacturers provide refurbished units that are ‘as new’

Fraser

[Stray Electron]

  That's a solid YES.  This isn't HP's first non-repairable, and completely unsupported product. 

  IMO if HP wants to market this kind of schlock then the buyers might as well go buy Siglent or other piece of non-repairable junk.

[Fraser]

Stray Electron,

I agree. People used to buy from the ‘big names’ because of a good reputation for after sales support. Such support seems to be becoming rarer and rarer these days. Some may say that this is a direct result of market sector, lower prices and the desire of some manufacturers to enter the more ‘budget’ markets where support is only good during the warranty period. With very expensive equipment there is likely more profit to cover support and warranty claims. There is also the possibility that the more budget friendly equipment is less reliable in the long term and so a bit of a liability for the manufacturer.

Remember when companies promised 10 Years of repair support. Such was common in my working environment but at 10 years and 1 Day it was common for esteemed manufacturers to literally ditch ALL support for an expensive product and the Sales team would advise that the equipment be replaced with the new fangled updated version at significant cost. That was just how life was. I might add that I was working in an environment where test equipment was £100K+ and replacing a low hours 10 year old unit due to a minor fault was not exactly a happy experience ! Having said that, I have sent expensive equipment away for a ‘Service and Calibration’ during its 10 year operational life, and received a list of modules that are no longer within factory spec due to ageing. The replacement or repair cost of all the aged parts sometimes justified replacing the whole equipment and this was just age related degradation of performance and somewhat more acceptable than just cessation of support at 10 years.

Fraser

[Porama6400]

  That's a solid YES.  This isn't HP's first non-repairable, and completely unsupported product. 

  IMO if HP wants to market this kind of schlock then the buyers might as well go buy Siglent or other piece of non-repairable junk.

If I've read their service manual beforehand, I probably would've gone for Siglent. I chose Keysight because there's a "proper" service center here, and I assumed at least they could replace the front panel encoder when it eventually dies. 

[Fraser]

Yes, I think there will be good alternatives to some HP equipment that offers better support or at least costs less with equally limited support. Some companies are mentally ‘locked-in’ to buying test equipment from certain big name manufacturers for historical reasons. Companies like HP take good advantage of the “we only buy HP because they are the best” mentality. Whilst HP undoubtedly are a producer of excellent test equipment, they are feeding in lower budget equipment to meet the needs of some customers, such as educational establishments, who buy in bulk and need affordable prices to do so.

Fraser

[xrunner]

It's not surprising to me. Not much surprises me anymore though. I would have given it a larger than 50% chance that they would be able to supply some parts for a $2,000 scope, but it wouldn't be a surprise if they didn't these days.

Fortunately for me, even if I wanted a Keysight scope (or other piece of gear from them), it's been documented that they don't want to sell to hobbyists anymore. So that'll keep me from being disappointed that whatever I got from them I can't get parts for. 

[coromonadalix]

Now it's buy a thing and trsh it when having problems

[Fraser]

Xrunner,

That policy against hobbyist sales confirms what I was thinking about the current HP/Keysight support strategy.

Not wanting to be mean or too general in my comments, but I have had many manufacturers tell me that the ‘profit to support cost ratio’ of ‘consumer/hobbyist’ sales is very poor compared to that of ‘Professional/Industrial’ sales. Some companies ditched their consumer orientated products as they found the support costs unacceptable for that market segment. There are some real horror stories I could tell, but they are discrete cases and not representative of most consumers or hobbyists.

Operating in the consumer electronics/test equipment market segment requires significant customer support capacity and sometimes, highly skilled customer support agents to ‘deal’ with difficult support cases.

Fraser

[Bud]

Replacing encoders is totally feasible at home, i would not worry about that.

[Fraser]

What bothers me more than hardware failure support is licenced software support. As an example I own a very clever and expensive piece of data analysis equipment that is really 50% hardware and 50% PC software in terms of how it does its job. The marketing strategy of the manufacturer was very clever…. You bought the hardware and it came with the software but you need a licence code to install the software. To obtain a valid ‘time limited’ licence code you need a support contract with the manufacturer. The licence was an annual renewable and covered software updates. If the licence expired, the software did keep working on the PC but no updates could be downloaded. Fair enough….except….. if you wanted to use your data analyser on another PC, a new Licence code was needed and this was only available if you bought a years support contract. Fair enough many would say. Not unusual really. However, when the manufacturer is bought by another company and your particular product is deleted from the range with zero support…. You are stuffed. No more support contracts or software installation licences so you cannot ever install the software on a new PC. I should add that the support contract licence that permitted software installation was not a simple design and involved serious levels of encryption that incorporated variables from the host PC and the hardware data collector as part of the encryption seed.

I contacted the new owner of the company that made my data analyser and they stated that I was out of luck as they did not hold the required information or software to assist me. It was deleted upon product discontinuation. I thought I was SOL but managed to contact a service tech in the company via other means and he agreed to help me. He had been an employee with the company that made my unit. He had the required activation licence software on an old PC and created a new multi PC support contract licence that lasts 10 years. I can now install the software as many times as I like.

I got lucky. Others may not be so fortunate with other equipment. The thought of perfectly functional and useable equipment being rendered effectively useless by a time limited support contract that cannot be renewed annoys me somewhat ! With the modern trend for ‘subscriptions’ for anything from TV streaming to software and hardware use is not a happy future in my opinion. Too much like the Inkjet Printer scenario where you buy a printer and pay through the nose for ongoing use via DRM protected inkjet consumables.

Fraser

[xrunner]

Xrunner,

That policy against hobbyist sales confirms what I was thinking about the current HP/Keysight support strategy.

Not wanting to be mean or too general in my comments, but I have had many manufacturers tell me that the profit to support cost ratio of ‘consumer/hobbyist’ sales is very poor compared to that of ‘Professional/Industrial’ sales. Some companies ditched their consumer orientated products as they found the support costs unacceptable for that market segment. There are some real horror stories I could tell, but they are discrete cases and not representative of most consumers or hobbyists.

Operating in the consumer electronics/test equipment market segment requires significant customer support capacity and sometimes, highly skilled customer support agents to ‘deal’ with difficult support cases.

Fraser

Hello,

Oh I don't think you're being too mean. The original company - Hewlett Packard, which I admire greatly, is a distant memory. I have lots of the older hp gear and I treasure it all. It's from an era that will never return. 

[tautech]

  That's a solid YES.  This isn't HP's first non-repairable, and completely unsupported product. 

  IMO if HP wants to market this kind of schlock then the buyers might as well go buy Siglent or other piece of non-repairable junk.

Get in the right century will ya ! 
Now tell us how something might be repaired at board level and maintain calibration ?

Any current production model we have absolutely no issues getting parts and recently received rectifiers for a board level warranty repair along with a calibrated control board so to all cover bases to get the unit up and running again.
A customer blew the 50 Ohm input in his scope and Siglent sent me the production drawings and specific part numbers of components to replace…..that’s instruction of how to fix a $ 900 PCB !

Now you’ve had your rant about Siglent tell us of other manufacturers that might do this in 2022. 

[Porama6400]

Replacing encoders is totally feasible at home, i would not worry about that.

That's fair. I exaggerated a bit. There's many other stuff that can fail which is not as easy to replace though.

What bothers me more than hardware failure support is licenced software support. As an example I own a very clever and expensive piece of data analysis equipment that is really 50% hardware and 50% PC software in terms of how it does its job. The marketing strategy of the manufacturer was very clever…. You bought the hardware and it came with the software but you need a licence code to install the software. To obtain a valid ‘time limited’ licence code you need a support contract with the manufacturer. The licence was an annual renewable and covered software updates. If the licence expired, the software did keep working on the PC but no updates could be downloaded. Fair enough….except….. if you wanted to use your data analyser on another PC, a new Licence code was needed and this was only available if you bought a years support contract. Fair enough many would say. Not unusual really. However, when the manufacturer is bought by another company and your particular product is deleted from the range with zero support…. You are stuffed. No more support contracts or software installation licences so you cannot ever install the software on a new PC. I should add that the support contract licence that permitted software installation was not a simple design and in loved serious levels of encryption that incorporated variables from the host PC and the hardware data collector as part of the encryption seed.

I contacted the new owner of the company that made my data analyser and they stated that I was out of luck as they did not hold the required information or software to assist me. It was deleted upon product discontinuation. I thought I was SOL but managed to contact a service tech in the company via other means and he agreed to help me. He had been an employee with the company that made my unit. He had the required activation licence software on an old PC and created a new multi PC support contract licence that lasts 10 years. I can nowinstall the software as many times as I like.

I got lucky. Others may not be so fortunate with other equipment. The thought of perfectly functional and useable equipment being rendered effectively useless by a time limited support contract that cannot be renewed annoys me somewhat ! With the modern trend for ‘subscriptions’ from anything from TV streaming to software and hardware use is not a happy future in my opinion. Too much like the Inkjet Printer scenario where you buy a printer and pay through the nose for ongoing use via DRM protected inkjet consumables.

Fraser

that sounds really bad, how is that even legal! 

[Fraser]

Porama6400,

The EU decided it wasn’t and made the company release free ‘open licences’ to permit use of the software. Sadly my unit was not provided with an ‘open licence’ as it predated the EU decision and the company was bought by another soon after. Once the new company discontinued the data analyser the issue went away for them, which may be why it was discontinued. This was why the support tech was able to legally give me a 10 year licence for my unit. He broke no licensing rules.

Fraser

[Fraser]

With regard to companies being seen to supply spare parts….. all is not always as it seems, as the ‘right to repair’ lobby likely know.

I repair thermal imaging cameras and have investigated the supply of repair parts in the past. Some companies state that they will only supply parts and service data to bona fide approved service agents and not end users. This is not uncommon and Health and Safety is often given as a valid reason for the policy. I have managed to bypass the ‘front end’ customer support defences of some companies and dealt direct with either senior management or helpful service techs. Sometimes I got lucky and had spare parts (new or used) sent to me free of charge as a good will gesture. On other occasions I have been told that only complete PCB or module replacement is available as the manufacturer sub contracts the PCB builds. In those cases the PCB’s are often eye wateringly expensive and those that come with flash memory may require programming with specialist service software. The cost and need for programming renders such spares pretty much useless to anyone but a service agent. I was quoted £5K for a processor PCB containing nothing special (MC68340 Processor). A generic MC68K SBC would cost a few hundred Pounds at most. The programming of the PCB for use was another £2K with VAT + S&H piled on top. The total cost of the repair (without my labour included) would have been around £8500. It was cheaper for me to buy a used parts donor unit for less than £500 and use the PCB out of that. The manufacturer can honestly say that I was offered repair support though !

Fraser

[nctnico]

Replacing encoders is totally feasible at home, i would not worry about that.

Agreed. Many problems originate from wear and are perfectly diagnosable / fixable without schematics. What people here seem to forget is that many test equipment manufacturers had a habit of using custom parts (like encoders with long shafts) that are not available anywhere once the stock runs out. Having schematics is nice and dandy but doesn't help if you can't get the parts.

Nowadays equipment uses off-the-shelve parts. So maybe you'll need to spend an hour looking in the Mouser catalog to find the replacement part but at least you can buy it.

[Fraser]

In my experience, the problems really occur when firmware and custom IC’s are involved in a repair. I can sometimes source a ‘blank’ Processor or other clever IC, but cannot obtain the proprietary code to enter into its flash memory. The original IC is either dead (hence the need to replace it) or protected against copying in some clever way. Failed ASIC’s are a nightmare for repair techs without access to the programmed spare parts. As I highlighted above, some modern manufacturers use 3rd parties to make their PCB’s and so whole PCB replacement is the only support option offered to the repair tech. No schematics needed… just ‘plug & play’ with maybe calibration routines to complete. I know of several companies that do not provide any schematics to their service agents as it is a PCB change based support model. I have many modern service manuals that contain a fault finding flow diagram and just show case disassembly diagrams and where the various PCB cables interconnect. Maybe a guide to calibration or configuration as well, but even that usually requires access to factory JIGS or utilities

I might add that this was the case with camcorders back in the late 1980’s so it is not anything very new. In those days the service manual contained a schematic but you often still needed factory JIGs and either a programming handset or utility software to complete a repair. Software configuration and ‘calibration’ has been with us for decades and remains a challenge to those without the utilities to complete such tasks as part of a repair.

[ralphrmartin]

No idea why HP decided to place “Refurbished” labels on brand new units coming off the production line,

A couple of years ago, I bought 2 laptops from a big name vendor at about 1/2 the price they had been previously, as "ding and dent" models. I was a little surprised to get a delivery date estimate that said they were being "built-to-order". Fortunately, dinging and denting them was not part of the build process. I reasoned that it was the manufacturer's way of getting rid of surplus processors etc that were not the "latest and greatest" without upsetting the guys who had bought them at the full price too much.

I've also bought Cambridge University Press books at a steep discount, with a "Damaged" stamp. The only damage I could find was the word "Damaged" in big dark letters on the title page. A way of getting rid of overstocks without upsetting the bookshops? I used to think it was a way of selling books below the official price, when there were book price controls in the UK, but the practice carries on now. Is it a way to sell books cheaply to poor students? It would be nice to think CUP were so charitable, but somehow I doubt kindness as a motive.

[Someone]

That policy against hobbyist sales confirms what I was thinking about the current HP/Keysight support strategy.

Not wanting to be mean or too general in my comments, but I have had many manufacturers tell me that the ‘profit to support cost ratio’ of ‘consumer/hobbyist’ sales is very poor compared to that of ‘Professional/Industrial’ sales. Some companies ditched their consumer orientated products as they found the support costs unacceptable for that market segment. There are some real horror stories I could tell, but they are discrete cases and not representative of most consumers or hobbyists.

There was a good example of that (borged through Keysight moving their support forum/platform, user posts were absorbed to a generic support account):

[Porama6400]

There was a good example of that (borged through Keysight moving their support forum/platform, user posts were absorbed to a generic support account):

that might not be because they were individuals, though. I think quite a few forums does that.

Xrunner,

That policy against hobbyist sales confirms what I was thinking about the current HP/Keysight support strategy.

Not wanting to be mean or too general in my comments, but I have had many manufacturers tell me that the ‘profit to support cost ratio’ of ‘consumer/hobbyist’ sales is very poor compared to that of ‘Professional/Industrial’ sales. Some companies ditched their consumer orientated products as they found the support costs unacceptable for that market segment. There are some real horror stories I could tell, but they are discrete cases and not representative of most consumers or hobbyists.

Operating in the consumer electronics/test equipment market segment requires significant customer support capacity and sometimes, highly skilled customer support agents to ‘deal’ with difficult support cases.

Fraser

It seems like all the people that had Keysight refused service were all from the UK. perhaps it's only Keysight UK that has that problem? not that that's any better.
EDUX stuff is relatively new, afterall. so I have some doubt that they would just abandon those product lines entirely.

[tooki]

as mentioned in the section 6 of their service manual:

Code: [Select]

Because the service policy for InfiniiVision 1200 X-Series and EDUX1052A/G
oscilloscopes is unit replacement, no replaceable parts are available for these
oscilloscopes.
Granted, it's my bad for not checking the service manual before buying.
but does it mean not even their service center can replace a board?

That's disappointing, no schematic, no block diagram, no board replacement, and not even a service center are allowed to fix the scope.
am I expected to buy a new one when a front panel button breaks, after I paid a premium price for a scope?

They consist of a single board, an LCD, and a power supply. I can absolutely see how in any country where labor costs more than a few cents an hour, the cost of local labor to diagnose and repair the unit exceeds the cost of swapping it for a whole new or refurbished unit. (Bear in mind that they may do board- or even component-level repair centrally, e.g. by sending all the broken units back to the factory or a service center.)

[Fungus]

It's probably not repairable at the board level and the cost of the case that goes around that board is probably less than the cost of return shipping, parts, labor and logistics.

There's probably a whole load of customers who claim it smells different afterwards or there's a tiny scratch on the back that wasn't there before so they end up paying to deal with them.

End result: Repairing them costs more money than shipping new ones.

Also: Most customers will go around boasting about how they "sent in an old one and got a new one in return" so this replacement policy also has a psychological benefit (Fluke owners often justify the purchase price of their meters this way).

It's wasteful but it's the world we live in.

[tooki]

And as I said, it's not guaranteed that they're scrapping the broken hardware. I know for a fact that Apple, for example, does at least some component-level repairs, which is why they require their stores and service providers to return most broken parts. (Things like batteries, keyboards and displays are scrapped, but motherboards, power supplies, etc. all go back). They're repaired and then become a spare part for future repairs. It's just that the component-level repairs aren't done at the stores and service providers. Those replace modules or entire machines for the customer. Some repair depot reworks the failed modules and machines.

[2N3055]

And as I said, it's not guaranteed that they're scrapping the broken hardware. I know for a fact that Apple, for example, does at least some component-level repairs, which is why they require their stores and service providers to return most broken parts. (Things like batteries, keyboards and displays are scrapped, but motherboards, power supplies, etc. all go back). They're repaired and then become a spare part for future repairs. It's just that the component-level repairs aren't done at the stores and service providers. Those replace modules or entire machines for the customer. Some repair depot reworks the failed modules and machines.

They repair some stuff through refurbishment process. It is done in Penang for instance (where they produce some products) for some products..

Also many think BOM (the actual price of material) on 1000 series Keysight is something worth of repairing. It is easily possible they make it for much less than Rigol and Siglent. They have huge markups on these, and they sell you big name, some know how that is visible in some refinements and neat tricks that makes their products attractive despite being quite limited in some regards...
The most important part of their Megazoom IV is that it contains ADCs and other expensive parts in a chip they make very cheaply...
Rest is basically (very cheap) tablet computer and some knobs.
It is literally more expensive to repair anything on motherboard 1000 series scope than to simply give you a new one. And that is before cost of huge support organization to enable component level repair. I doubt they even refurbish them. Transport to facilities for repair might cost same as a board.