Is a Rigol MSO5000 still worth it after the new DHO's have arrived?

[Dude McGee]

I'm wondering whether it is possibly still wise to purchase an MSO5074 although the new DHO's (800, 900 etc.) are available and are in part more capable in terms of hardware, esp. the ADC's which are now 12 bit instead of 8 which is the MSO5000 standard as far as I know.

New features like VESA mounting points, a HDMI output or UI gimmicks are not relevant to me. My fields of interest are esp. audio signals, Arduino programming, and general purpose electronics on an amateur level.

So, are there good reasons to stay away from an MSO5000 or vice versa strong recommendations towards a new generation DHO model?

Thanks a lot for your suggestions, hints and opinions!

[bte]

Would these existing discussions help?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho1000-vs-mso5000-what-should-i-get/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso5074-vs-dho914s/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/purchase-advice-rigol-mso5074
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/should-i-buy-a-rigol-mso5000/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/best-350mhz-scope-in-a-hackable-world-(siglent-sds2104x-plus-or-rigol-mso5072)/

[Fungus]

What could you buy with the difference in money?

[Dude McGee]

Would these existing discussions help?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho1000-vs-mso5000-what-should-i-get/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso5074-vs-dho914s/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/purchase-advice-rigol-mso5074
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/should-i-buy-a-rigol-mso5000/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/best-350mhz-scope-in-a-hackable-world-(siglent-sds2104x-plus-or-rigol-mso5072)/

The first two are indeed related to my question, thanks for the links!

[Dude McGee]

What could you buy with the difference in money?

The money was limited to about 1k EUR, the price difference between the DHO and the MSO models was no concern. I just wanted to be as sure as possible that I don't waste money when buying the older MSO5000.

Based on the two discussions user bte generously provided the links to and with a lot of research during the last two days in addition, I made up the decision to order the MSO5074.

[Uli Auer]

Based on the two discussions user bte generously provided the links to and with a lot of research during the last two days in addition, I made up the decision to order the MSO5074.

Hey Dude,
could you share which thoughts and considerations led you to your decision of buying the MSO5k in particular?
What was your personal weighting of the pros and cons that are discussed in so many threads and videos?
I'm at that exact same decision point right now and will receice demo units (MSO5104 and DHO924S) this week and I'm bouncing from tending towards one unit over the other and vice versa all the time....

[thm_w]

I'm at that exact same decision point right now and will receice demo units (MSO5104 and DHO924S) this week and I'm bouncing from tending towards one unit over the other and vice versa all the time....

DHO900 is a joke for $900, I don't understand why people keep wasting money on that thing 

Either:
- DHO804 + dedicated logic analyzer ~$600
- DHO1074 + dedicated logic analyzer ~$1200
- MSO5074 + logic option $1400
- Siglent SDS1000X HD or 800X HD + logic option

[Martin72]

Hi,

New features like VESA mounting points, a HDMI output or UI gimmicks are not relevant to me. My fields of interest are esp. audio signals, Arduino programming, and general purpose electronics on an amateur level.

That would mean the MSO5000 is out.
In 2018 it was a sensation, with max 8GSa/s and two-channel awg.
But it has a noisy front end, which is rather unsuitable for fine audio signals and ripple measurements.
The FFT function is also rather rudimentary.
If Bodeplot is interesting (keyword LF filter, frequency response of amplifiers), I would not use rigol.
Although the 12-bit DHO series has excellent low-noise performance, it is equipped with a rudimentary FFT like the MSO5000 and the bodeplot function (DHO900) is virtually useless as things stand.
I would therefore have a look at siglent.
If 12Bit is not important, the SDS2000Xplus, if it is, but the screen does not necessarily have to be 10”, then the SDS800X HD.
Both have a very good FFT function and low-noise front end, and the bodeplot function is also very good for an oscilloscope.
If low noise is the only criterion, the DHO800/1000 would be suitable.
I would do without a DHO900.

[Uli Auer]

@Martin72:

Could you go more into detail regarding what you mean by "fine audio signals" - which you find the MSO5k being not suitable for (and why)? And the same for ripple measurements? (leaving FFT or bode plot aside for a moment - which one could see as marketing features that can't compare to their stand-alone brothers for a reason)

What I want is getting a good allrounder scope for mixed-signal work - but also one for playing around with analog audio repair (mainly studio gear, not Hi-Fi) and long term maybe even development of both analog audio (like mic pre-amps or analog sound sculpting units like equalizers or harmonic distortion generators etc.) AND embedded systems...

So my "usage profile" seems to be pretty similar to Dude McGee's.

I already have a trusty HP54610B 500MHz ;-) But I wanted to have more options and of course a more modern unit in general...and the easy-to-use logic functions look appealing to me...

I need to say that I'm still at the beginning of my electronics (and scope-using) journey....
BUT what I really don't get in these whole discussions around these kind of scopes in this price range I'm following on forums like these and on YT for a while now:

Something like two to three decades ago people were capable of do any kind of serious audio work with the better range analog (or earlier analog-digital storage) scopes....how can it be that in 2024 a scope with a feature set of the MSO5000 is being called more or less "useless for audio work"...?

I mean: How noisy must a front end be to be classified like that? Has the whole "era" of 8-bit digital scopes been useless then? And how does that fit your statement of "in 2018 it was a sensation" And now in 2024....useless?

Are these scopes really so bad? Or just in comparison to the high range (and price tag) ones of today like the big R+S or LeCroys etc for 5k-30k USD/EUR?

What I really like about the MSO5000 are simple ergonomics aspects like separate controls for each analog channel....such things might seem of minor priority....for me (being an ergonomics nerd) they might not because fiddling around with the V-controls of separate channels is much faster and more direct than always toggle via a channel selector button...which share the Rigol DHO's (800, 900, 1000, 4000) with the Siglent(s).....;-(

[EEVblog]

Has the whole "era" of 8-bit digital scopes been useless then? And how does that fit your statement of "in 2018 it was a sensation" And now in 2024....useless?

I think he was being a bit hyperbolic in saying useless.
It's obviously as useful as it ever was, but now that even $299 scopes are 12bit, it's wise to consider 12bit instead of an 8bit these days.

[Fungus]

@Martin72:

Could you go more into detail regarding what you mean by "fine audio signals" - which you find the MSO5k being not suitable for (and why)? And the same for ripple measurements?

It's kinda hard to see signals below about 3mV on the MSO5000 due to noise.

[Uli Auer]

Has the whole "era" of 8-bit digital scopes been useless then? And how does that fit your statement of "in 2018 it was a sensation" And now in 2024....useless?

I think he was being a bit hyperbolic in saying useless.
It's obviously as useful as it ever was, but now that even $299 scopes are 12bit, it's wise to consider 12bit instead of an 8bit these days.

Yes. I know. And my post was not intended to be offensive towards Martin in any way, nitpicking on a certain expression. And he didn't say "useless" expressively anyway - that was just to emphazise on what I read in the discussions...

And yes, of course 12 bit is better than 8 bit. BUT 8Gs/s are much better than 1.25Gs/s - and @ 250MHz (DHO925S) they are a joke - as far as I've read about a reasonable bandwidth/sample depth ratio....and for me separate controls are better....all those aspects have been compared to death already - some people are even discussing whether the black colour is better than the bright grey  - some are winning on the MSO5000, some aren't.

But my question to the much more experienced guys in this forum still stays unreplied: Do I NEED 12bit in order to work on audio because I wouldn't see ANYTHING due to a 8 bit front end? Would buying a MSO5k make it impossible to work on analyzing audio and power signals ?

The Siglent also looks good to me - some videos show some little good aspects in ergonomics, like the menu behaviour or response of touch gestures etc.
But it's again 250 EUR more, and since I already have the MSO5k demo for testing I really dig the separate channel controls already - as I expected....

[2N3055]

I mean: How noisy must a front end be to be classified like that? Has the whole "era" of 8-bit digital scopes been useless then? And how does that fit your statement of "in 2018 it was a sensation" And now in 2024....useless?

Are these scopes really so bad? Or just in comparison to the high range (and price tag) ones of today like the big R+S or LeCroys etc for 5k-30k USD/EUR?

It has nothing to do with 8bit ADC. It's front end /ADC are horribly noisy. 
To make it even worse, it's best sensitivity is 4mV/div (32 mV full screen vertically) and all more sensitive ranges are software magnifications of that. That means at 1mV/div you are basically left with half an inch thick noise track.
And that is compared to numerous other 8 bit scopes that cost half as much, which many of those have less noise and real 500µV/div ranges in preamps.

There are several 8bit scopes that have as little noise as new 12 bit scopes, just not the resolution.

Is it important to you? We don't know. For digital work it works just fine.. For looking at audio power amps (repair use) just fine. Microphone preamp ? Debatable......

[2N3055]

DHO900 is a joke.
OTOH 8GS/s is overkill that is not needed for that BW.

My preference would not be Rigol at all.
But all said, MSO5000 is better scope that DHO900, in everything except noise.

For you a Siglent SDS2000X+ or a MSO5000 paired with QuantAsylum audio analyzer is what you should aim if your goal is audio work.

It is not always about cheapest you can get. It is about getting tools to get the job done at best price.

[Uli Auer]

For you a Siglent SDS2000X+ or a MSO5000 paired with QuantAsylum audio analyzer is what you should aim if your goal is audio work.

It is not always about cheapest you can get. It is about getting tools to get the job done at best price.

Maybe I need to mention that I also have a real audio analyzer already - the Audio Precision ATS-2 
So in your opinion I'm fine with the combination of MSO5000 and ATS-2?

And 100% +1 on your quality of tools statement.

[bte]

Maybe it will help to put some numbers into the MSO5000 noise discussion:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/best-350mhz-scope-in-a-hackable-world-(siglent-sds2104x-plus-or-rigol-mso5072)/msg3377158/#msg3377158
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/best-350mhz-scope-in-a-hackable-world-(siglent-sds2104x-plus-or-rigol-mso5072)/msg3383142/#msg3383142
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/best-350mhz-scope-in-a-hackable-world-(siglent-sds2104x-plus-or-rigol-mso5072)/msg3382074/#msg3382074
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/best-350mhz-scope-in-a-hackable-world-(siglent-sds2104x-plus-or-rigol-mso5072)/msg3379506/#msg3379506

That thread is worth reading from start to end, IMO. It's only 9 pages and it shouldn't take too long. However, it contains very useful discussion pertinent to your noise-related questions.

[2N3055]

For you a Siglent SDS2000X+ or a MSO5000 paired with QuantAsylum audio analyzer is what you should aim if your goal is audio work.

It is not always about cheapest you can get. It is about getting tools to get the job done at best price.

Maybe I need to mention that I also have a real audio analyzer already - the Audio Precision ATS-2 
So in your opinion I'm fine with the combination of MSO5000 and ATS-2?

And 100% +1 on your quality of tools statement.

I can't say if YOU are fine with it  .

It's a scope. If it works and you find it acceptable to work with that is all you need. For fine audio work you already have all you need. For "scoping around" in a GO/NO GO fashion and verifying if signals are there and their general shape I guess it'll do.

I personally would go with SDS2000X+ because it is better scope (realistically) and I like it's concept better (personal preference).

[Uli Auer]

@Martin72:

After reading most of the blog discussion "bte" threw in, I've seen your reply#72
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/best-350mhz-scope-in-a-hackable-world-(siglent-sds2104x-plus-or-rigol-mso5072)/msg3377158/#msg3377158

in December 2020 where you state that with the averaging function of the MSO5000 the noise wouldn't seem to be a problem anymore and that you obviously could easily see 1mV ripple of a PSU ...
Why do you still state the opposite in this discussion and that the MSO would be "out" for that exact reason?
Did you find other problems with the averaging function that made you doubt what you see with it?

[2N3055]

@Martin72:

After reading most of the blog discussion "bte" threw in, I've seen your reply#72
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/best-350mhz-scope-in-a-hackable-world-(siglent-sds2104x-plus-or-rigol-mso5072)/msg3377158/#msg3377158

in December 2020 where you state that with the averaging function of the MSO5000 the noise wouldn't seem to be a problem anymore and that you obviously could easily see 1mV ripple of a PSU ...
Why do you still state the opposite in this discussion and that the MSO would be "out" for that exact reason?
Did you find other problems with the averaging function that made you doubt what you see with it?

Averaging does not work with any noise processes... Or anything you cannot cleanly trigger from..

Look, if you plan to look at signals that are less than 20-30mV P-P and plan to see if that signal is clean than MSO5000 is not for you. At 1 mV/div you get one full division of noise, a finger thick block with nothing connected.

[Martin72]

@Uli:
Short version (I'm at work)
Like 2N3055 wrote, this method is not "valid" for every case.
Today I doubt my result, there was a lot of trickery involved (average, extra filter before the input, trigger on line).
Plus the fact that everything below 2mV/divison is no longer "real" in the sense of pixel zoom.
I then wanted to switch to DSO7000, but after consulting with Rigol I decided on an SDS2000Xplus, because according to Rigol the much more expensive 7000 has the same front end.

[Uli Auer]

Thanks Martin for the clarification!

I've sent an Email to Siglent in order to get a demo unit of the SDS200Xplus in case they have some....

Just for some people who also do NOT already own one of the two scopes - related to the original topic:

Having both the MSO5104 and the DHO925S here "under my fingers" right now for testing and in direct comparison, I really must say the following:

- The DHO925S really feels and looks like a toy to me - totally aside from any technical specs and possible qualities.
- The display is tiny, the controls are tiny (simply trying to press the Ch1-4 selector buttons was almost impossible since they are so close together that I had problems hitting them without also touching their direct neighbours....and I really have rather small hands and sleek fingers!!!
- pressing the buttons also immediately make the unit tilt and wiggle....
-> So knowing that I would "hate" the DHO925S while using it I did not even power it on....

- The MSO5104 I really like from my first steps in making me familiar with it:
- The whole unit seems to be pretty sturdy and all of the controls feel good - rotary controllers have a good general feel and resistance, nothing sloppy at all...enough space between any of the controls to use them in a comfortable way
- Although the display is not the brightest and does not have any "wow effect" - like seeing an iPad screen for the first time ;-) I have no reason for complaints. Also the HDMI works fine and expands visibility quite a lot. Unfortunately it is only 1280 x 720 max resolution.... But okay...
- I did not try the LAN GUI yet...
- I like that it has a "normal size fan" of 80x80mm under the back roast cover - so even although I don't find the fan noise being too annoying (not really whiny or similar) or too loud (after reading some reviews I was afraid hearing something much worse!) it should be pretty easy to replace it with a Noctua or similar quieter model - instead of performing crazy moves without any significant effect like Dave shows in one of his videos for the DHO800 (if I recall that right)...

What kind of turns me off with the Siglent is - aside from the lack of separate controls as already mentioned - that it only has VGA video out...(really??? in 2024?!!!  )
That's not ultimately NEEDED due to the on-board 10" display....but putting the scope image on a larger screen (mine in the lab is 32") is nice to have...of course NOT more important than the technical specs that really count....

And: Just for being sure: What about the 10bit-Mode of the Siglent? It also is only software-based, right? So they are both (MSO5k and SDS200X+) 8bit scopes by ADC and only that the Siglent is quieter anyway....?

[tautech]

Thanks Martin for the clarification!

I've sent an Email to Siglent in order to get a demo unit of the SDS200Xplus in case they have some....
.................

What kind of turns me off with the Siglent is - aside from the lack of separate controls as already mentioned - that it only has VGA video out...(really??? in 2024?!!!  )
That's not ultimately NEEDED due to the on-board 10" display....but putting the scope image on a larger screen (mine in the lab is 32") is nice to have...of course NOT more important than the technical specs that really count....

No Video out at all....other than its fine webserver..... and who doesn't have a PC at the bench ?
Porting scope operation to the PC also allows for remote full control, handy when the scope is on a shelf above the bench and you have room for a mouse.....where the scope can be controlled with a mouse directly connected or via the PC mouse.....or both if you like.

And: Just for being sure: What about the 10bit-Mode of the Siglent? It also is only software-based, right? So they are both (MSO5k and SDS200X+) 8bit scopes by ADC and only that the Siglent is quieter anyway....?

It's accomplished with oversampling and therefore restricted to 100 MHz capability.

[Martin72]

What kind of turns me off with the Siglent is - aside from the lack of separate controls as already mentioned

I still don't understand why some people criticize the lack of channel-separated vertical elements.
Whether I need 10sec or 12sec to position the channels on the screen....I'm not on the run.

- that it only has VGA video out...(really??? in 2024?!!!  )

Yes, Siglent and the video output is a (now amusing) story in itself.
Incidentally, the 5000X series has a VGA output, no Siglent model below that has a video output.

That's not ultimately NEEDED due to the on-board 10" display....but putting the scope image on a larger screen (mine in the lab is 32") is nice to have...of course NOT more important than the technical specs that really count....

So speaking for myself, I didn't miss a video output.
Precisely because of its own screen size and the fact that you can control the scope via a web interface.
And you can also connect a projector to a PC.

And: Just for being sure: What about the 10bit-Mode of the Siglent? It also is only software-based, right? So they are both (MSO5k and SDS200X+) 8bit scopes by ADC and only that the Siglent is quieter anyway....?

Yes, the 10-bit mode on the siglent is software-based, but you still have a remarkable bandwidth of 100Mhz in this mode.
With the low noise of the SDS2000Xplus, however, I never used the 10-bit mode back then.
Reducing the Siglent to low noise compared to the MSO5000 is a little too short-sighted.
Imagine my situation at the very beginning of 2020.
Until then, I was the happy owner of an MSO5000.
Then came the Ripple measurements and the communication with Rigol and I was a little disillusioned.
That's when the SDS2000Xplus came out.
No Hdmi output, “only” 2GSa/s max, only 1-channel integrated AWG, that sounds like a step backwards.
At first...
I took the risk and the extra expense (+400€) and then the SDS2104Xplus arrived.
And everything was different.
The screen is one inch larger, clearer and brighter.
The touch input is incomparably more responsive.
The menus have a “grown-up” design, very similar to Lecroy Scopes - I was immediately “at home”.
Bode plot function is excellent - You can even integrate external generators and thus create bode plots up to 120Mhz.
You can select the color of the channels yourself, which is a big advantage.
The FFT function is better, the scope has integrated 50 Ohm resistors and many other advantages that convinced me so much in the end that we now have 6 of them at work.
However, one should not conceal what the siglent does not have:
-Video output
-4 math channels
-Digital filter functions

But all in all, it's the best you can get for the money.
Is that still the case today?
I say yes.
Always in relation to the base price, of course.

[Uli Auer]

Thanks again Martin - seeing all of the (real) advantage aspects of the Siglent piled up again make me really consider getting the Siglent - although it really is pretty much beyond my initial budget ideas...

Although this again is also off topic (this is a thread about MSO and DHO scopes).....has anybody tried out the new Siglent SDS1000X HD series?
I mean these are real 12bit - and even cheaper than the "x plus" ! 

Maybe I should get more information on these now....

[tautech]

Although this again is also off topic (this is a thread about MSO and DHO scopes.....does anybody tried out the new Siglent SDS1000X HD series?
I mean these are real 12bit - and even cheaper than the "x plus" ! 

Maybe I should get more information on these now....

They are nice but just a 200 MHz design, no internal AWG and MSO capability is from an external MSO/LA box.
SDS2kX Plus has all this HW internal and is a 500 MHz design.

SDS1000X is slightly narrower, has nicer controls and encoder feel is a little different although this might not matter to most.