Author Topic: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?  (Read 62173 times)

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Offline WaveyDipoleTopic starter

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #425 on: November 25, 2022, 11:14:44 am »
But i'm also considering to drop the DSO's LA  in favor to an external device, so i put on order a DSlogic plus to evaluate this solution, if it works as expected, the DSO choice will be easier.

I was thinking along similar lines. It seems that an external LA might be a better option than the ones built into these scopes. I was considering the Hantek 4032 as it has 32 channels. I also looked at the DsLogic, but don't like the way that they have essentially taken the Sigrok project work, gave it their branding and passed it off as their own without giving the Sigrok project credit. Still, technically I hear it is meant to be a good option and is affordable.

If I went down the route of an external LA, then I might want to find non-MSO oscilloscope that can cover a similar bandwidth range to the MSO5000 or SDS2104X Plus for a similar or lower price range. However, I don't think there is such a thing on the market. I am therefore wondering whether it might make sense to simply save the money I am considering spending on an LA probe and purchase a separate LA instead. Sigrok covers so many more protocols than either of the MSOs. I already own one of those cheap $25 ones, but need something a bit faster. The Saleae might have been an option if the 16-bit version didn't cost more than an MSO!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2022, 11:18:21 am by WaveyDipole »
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #426 on: November 25, 2022, 12:08:56 pm »

Please correct me if i'm wrong.

You are free to use the tools as you like and to like whatever tools you like. You, Nico, Joe and Jane. More power to you!

I would add David, in first place, and many thousands of techs that know their job, what i got here is that sales men are far to understand the matter.

You keep implying that those that oppose you don't know their job...

At which I will respond in kind: those with limited knowledge see only one way to solve the problem, even if there are many other ways...

Ruminate on that.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #427 on: November 25, 2022, 01:01:36 pm »
But i'm also considering to drop the DSO's LA  in favor to an external device, so i put on order a DSlogic plus to evaluate this solution, if it works as expected, the DSO choice will be easier.

I was thinking along similar lines. It seems that an external LA might be a better option than the ones built into these scopes. I was considering the Hantek 4032 as it has 32 channels. I also looked at the DsLogic, but don't like the way that they have essentially taken the Sigrok project work, gave it their branding and passed it off as their own without giving the Sigrok project credit. Still, technically I hear it is meant to be a good option and is affordable.

If I went down the route of an external LA, then I might want to find non-MSO oscilloscope that can cover a similar bandwidth range to the MSO5000 or SDS2104X Plus for a similar or lower price range. However, I don't think there is such a thing on the market. I am therefore wondering whether it might make sense to simply save the money I am considering spending on an LA probe and purchase a separate LA instead. Sigrok covers so many more protocols than either of the MSOs. I already own one of those cheap $25 ones, but need something a bit faster. The Saleae might have been an option if the 16-bit version didn't cost more than an MSO!

This is eternal debate.
Some facts.
What most people nowadays call LA is not really a proper LA. These are some simplified devices that can record state from digital inputs, coupled with some software that can analyse such streams.
Real old school LA had staggering complexity and almost infinite capabilities compared to modern "toy" devices.

Problem is that once speeds on certain interfaces went too high, and most of slow data transfer(and some of fast ones) was migrated to on board serial protocol links of all sorts, these old school LA stopped being made. There was not enough demand in industry to keep making them. We came to the point that new DDR4 and DDR5 interfaces cannot even be instrumented directly to connect to some measurement device without destroying the very signal margin you try to measure. FPGA devices are being equipped with internal eye diagraming instrumentation to be able to verify SI..
Etc etc..

I don't deal with legacy 8 computers or retro computing electronics. So even if I bought ZeroPlus LA (that has both trig in and out and can do synchronous sampling like a proper LA) I used it maybe 5 times total in 5+years.
It support literally more than 100 protocols, and is well made device.
But for modern electronics it is either what you can do with simple MSO scope or you need 5GHz+ BW and probes that cost as much as my apartment.

As I said, many a time this was discussed and always ended the same:  everybody should own a 20something $ Ebay LA that can be connected to sigrok. Why: it cost nothing, and while limited it can do a lot of stuff. Sort of a it's better than nothing argument, but in this case way better. It's clunky and stuff but you can do surprisingly lot with it. 20$ Ebay clone with Sigrok will have same rudimentary triggering as Saelae and actually more protocol decodes....

For people with more money there is DSlogic and those with even more Saelae.
DSLogic actually have much more capable hardware and triggering than Saelae, which I consider an Apple of these LA: deliberately simplified device but what it has works out of the box.
Saelae is functionally equivalent to 20$ Ebay clone, so you are paying for software, in this case just works ease of use.
DSlogic OTOH is much more powerful.

These 3 LA devices all will work very well for decoding and looking into long sequences of serial messages.
They are very good to a software person writing software stack on a solid proven hardware.
They will not tell you if message was sent wrongly because of software or if it got corrupted by signal integrity issues on the bus. That is very important on multipoint buses and noisy buses.

For that you need scope that has to have sufficient bandwidth to look at the communications bus SI in analog domain.

And this is how it was made long time ago: with analog scope you were looking at SI, running all kinds of synthetic data patterns (PRBS or specially designed pathological patterns to provoke certain error states) and once engineer doing that was happy, hardware was passed to software guys to do their thing.

With time MSO scopes appeared and new stuff was possible: time correlation of analog signals and digital data and messages. Also with decoding from analog channels, you could do both SI and message debug at the same time. One place where that made big change was CAN bus, for instance... Nodes stepping on each other is much easier to spot with MSO, while on CAN message level you just saw an error ...

That is a landscape in short. Everybody decide what is important for them.



« Last Edit: November 25, 2022, 02:01:28 pm by 2N3055 »
 

Offline mawyatt

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #428 on: November 25, 2022, 01:48:04 pm »

"properly" is this entire silly argument, I think a scope that overflows the visible window as a normal/routine operation is silly and a downside, others disagree (and post endless noisy misleading posts on this forum about it as quoted above). What is properly? that depends on what you are trying to do! All the choices have downsides, that might be a problem in certain situations.

Both methods have downsides, neither are universal. It is a general question of how should a scope select the memory depth and sample rate, two things that can be orthogonal to the horizontal timebase but aren't fully independent on any scope (that I am aware of).

Agree this is an ongoing "silly argument", thanks for pointing this out!!

Reminds of a right handed screwdriver, but I'm left handed, so I can't use the right handed screwdriver, especially CCW, but if one stands on their head does the right handed screwdriver work CCW now, or maybe we just need to get both, a left and right handed screwdriver .  :palm: 

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
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Online Fungus

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #429 on: November 25, 2022, 02:35:51 pm »
I would add that I find all "non touchscreen" scopes awkward to use.

Yep. I wouldn't like to go back to a twisty-knob 'scope after owning a touch-screen one.
 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #430 on: November 25, 2022, 03:21:00 pm »
I would add that I find all "non touchscreen" scopes awkward to use.

Yep. I wouldn't like to go back to a twisty-knob 'scope after owning a touch-screen one.

Agree, but still think best is combined touchscreen and some knobs..
 
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Offline jasonRF

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #431 on: November 25, 2022, 04:58:09 pm »
...
Maybe somone with a Picoi can confirm this and draw a comparison?



Hello,

in PicoScope you can not zoom out.

Best regards
egonotto
Agreed, but you can use the zoom function to get around that in some ways.  Attached is a screenshot made using a lowly 2204a to show how it works.   The main screen is only displaying a fraction of the total samples captured; the inset shows longer waveform you have captured and the window that you are viewing (you can minimize the inset if you don't want to see it).  You can scroll around while the scope is running or stopped.  But this does take one extra step to setup.  I use this a lot with my 5244B that has much deeper memory.

I will stay out of the arguments about this, though!

jason

 
 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #432 on: November 25, 2022, 05:10:38 pm »
...
Maybe somone with a Picoi can confirm this and draw a comparison?



Hello,

in PicoScope you can not zoom out.

Best regards
egonotto
Agreed, but you can use the zoom function to get around that in some ways.  Attached is a screenshot made using a lowly 2204a to show how it works.   The main screen is only displaying a fraction of the total samples captured; the inset shows longer waveform you have captured and the window that you are viewing (you can minimize the inset if you don't want to see it).  You can scroll around while the scope is running or stopped.  But this does take one extra step to setup.  I use this a lot with my 5244B that has much deeper memory.

I will stay out of the arguments about this, though!

jason

 

Noooo, it's even better, on Picoscope singe zoom is only the beginning. You can open numerous scope windows simultaneously with separate zoom settings...
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #433 on: November 25, 2022, 09:16:47 pm »
Yep. I wouldn't like to go back to a twisty-knob 'scope after owning a touch-screen one.
Agree, but still think best is combined touchscreen and some knobs..

 :-+
 

Offline markone

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #434 on: November 25, 2022, 10:22:59 pm »
But i'm also considering to drop the DSO's LA  in favor to an external device, so i put on order a DSlogic plus to evaluate this solution, if it works as expected, the DSO choice will be easier.

I was thinking along similar lines. It seems that an external LA might be a better option than the ones built into these scopes. I was considering the Hantek 4032 as it has 32 channels. I also looked at the DsLogic, but don't like the way that they have essentially taken the Sigrok project work, gave it their branding and passed it off as their own without giving the Sigrok project credit. Still, technically I hear it is meant to be a good option and is affordable.

If I went down the route of an external LA, then I might want to find non-MSO oscilloscope that can cover a similar bandwidth range to the MSO5000 or SDS2104X Plus for a similar or lower price range. However, I don't think there is such a thing on the market. I am therefore wondering whether it might make sense to simply save the money I am considering spending on an LA probe and purchase a separate LA instead. Sigrok covers so many more protocols than either of the MSOs. I already own one of those cheap $25 ones, but need something a bit faster. The Saleae might have been an option if the 16-bit version didn't cost more than an MSO!

All depends how much you can step down from MSO's LA performance  (MSO5000 is able to sample all 16CH@1Gs/s with 26Mpts/ch while Siglent SDS2000x Plus datasheet reports 16CH@500Ms/s with 50Mpts/ch) and/or which trigger mechanisms you need.
If the answer is "a lot", as in my personal case, it makes a lot of sense to choose a separate USB LA solution with Trigger Output line (as I did) that also works nicely in streaming mode, otherwise it would be better to go with an MSO.

If i understood correctly what you need a DSLogic Plus would largely fit your need @ 120-150USD.
 

Offline markone

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #435 on: November 25, 2022, 10:34:37 pm »

"properly" is this entire silly argument, I think a scope that overflows the visible window as a normal/routine operation is silly and a downside, others disagree (and post endless noisy misleading posts on this forum about it as quoted above). What is properly? that depends on what you are trying to do! All the choices have downsides, that might be a problem in certain situations.

Both methods have downsides, neither are universal. It is a general question of how should a scope select the memory depth and sample rate, two things that can be orthogonal to the horizontal timebase but aren't fully independent on any scope (that I am aware of).

Agree this is an ongoing "silly argument", thanks for pointing this out!!

Reminds of a right handed screwdriver, but I'm left handed, so I can't use the right handed screwdriver, especially CCW, but if one stands on their head does the right handed screwdriver work CCW now, or maybe we just need to get both, a left and right handed screwdriver .  :palm: 

Best,

NumberOfFarFromUnderstandingTheMatter += 1;
 
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Offline jonovid

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #436 on: November 25, 2022, 10:59:29 pm »
more cost & complexity, do we really need more of it. if I'm just a weekender  :popcorn:
Hobbyist with a basic knowledge of electronics
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #437 on: November 25, 2022, 11:03:23 pm »
Quote
NumberOfFarFromUnderstandingTheMatter += 1

What´s the matter...
"Comparison is the end of happiness and the beginning of dissatisfaction."(Kierkegaard)
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Offline markone

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #438 on: November 25, 2022, 11:08:27 pm »
Quote
NumberOfFarFromUnderstandingTheMatter += 1

What´s the matter...

 Martin, You already know  :)
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #439 on: November 25, 2022, 11:40:19 pm »
Again ...  Rigol with memory set to Auto operates exactly like the Siglent, in addition RIGOL allows you to select a fixed value and make use of the whole amount. 
So now having more options is a silly downside where having less is a feature ?

Depends on the options... ;)
You are on the road with your car, when a curve comes you follow it, you have no alternative.
Or you arrive at a crossroads, then you have more options.
You can turn right, turn left or go straight ahead.
Several options, but actually you only need the one that leads you to your destination.
Before, you had one option that would take you to your destination.
Unless, of course, you got totally lost. ;D
Having more options wouldn´t mean you got automatically more enhancements.
Sometimes it could mean you got more possibilities to struggle...
Therefore, I strongly believe this, the rigol got "auto" as default setting.




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Offline markone

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #440 on: November 26, 2022, 12:00:16 am »
Again ...  Rigol with memory set to Auto operates exactly like the Siglent, in addition RIGOL allows you to select a fixed value and make use of the whole amount. 
So now having more options is a silly downside where having less is a feature ?

Depends on the options... ;)
You are on the road with your car, when a curve comes you follow it, you have no alternative.
Or you arrive at a crossroads, then you have more options.
You can turn right, turn left or go straight ahead.
Several options, but actually you only need the one that leads you to your destination.
Before, you had one option that would take you to your destination.
Unless, of course, you got totally lost. ;D
Having more options wouldn´t mean you got automatically more enhancements.
Sometimes it could mean you got more possibilities to struggle...
Therefore, I strongly believe this, the rigol got "auto" as default setting.

It sounds like : more is less and freedom is slavery  :)
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #441 on: November 26, 2022, 12:11:49 am »
Again ...  Rigol with memory set to Auto operates exactly like the Siglent, in addition RIGOL allows you to select a fixed value and make use of the whole amount. 
So now having more options is a silly downside where having less is a feature ?

Depends on the options... ;)
You are on the road with your car, when a curve comes you follow it, you have no alternative.
Or you arrive at a crossroads, then you have more options.
You can turn right, turn left or go straight ahead.
Several options, but actually you only need the one that leads you to your destination.
Before, you had one option that would take you to your destination.
Unless, of course, you got totally lost. ;D
Having more options wouldn´t mean you got automatically more enhancements.
Sometimes it could mean you got more possibilities to struggle...
Therefore, I strongly believe this, the rigol got "auto" as default setting.

It sounds like : more is less and freedom is slavery  :)
Indeed. And it also sound like 'I have this all-terrain bicycle, the people taking part in the Tour de France cycling race should use it too. I can cycle on it just fine through the forrest so they should just work around the inconveniences of an all-terrain bike when using it for racing on the road'.

The reality is: different jobs, need different tools. Even in a restaurant you get different cutlery depending on the type of food you have ordered. Try cutting a steak with a fish knife.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2022, 01:13:40 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline WaveyDipoleTopic starter

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #442 on: December 20, 2022, 10:16:12 pm »
I haven't updated this thread for a while as other matters had overtaken this particular issue. In the end I settled for the Rigol MSO5000. Sadly I missed the Black Friday deals but the scope is currently selling at a reduced price anyway. Weighing up my needs, I just couldn't justify paying an additional 250-300GBP (total cost) for the Siglent SDS2104 Plus.

My MSO5000 arrived today and I have barely had enough time to unpack and check a few basic things. Everything with the scope itself so far seems to work as it should. I have yet to run an auto-cal, check networking, external display and other advanced functions such as decoding and math. I won't be able to fully test the LA features until the probe arrives. The screen is a little underwhelming and the brightness control seems to have no effect but it is manageable. A measure of fan noise is present as expected, but I found it to be acceptable not distracting.

There are a couple of minor problems though. Of the channel active lights CH 2,3 and 4 are bright enough but CH 1 is rather dim and barely noticeable and remains dim while the channel is enabled during normal operation. The adjustment on the probe I was using seemed not to have any effect although the test square wave seems pretty flat anyway. I haven't tested the remaining three probes yet.

If everything is still fine once I complete my tests then hopefully the oscilloscope issue can be laid to rest for a very long time. The two Tek 4xx series analog scopes have now been sold. I have retained only the Philips PM3094 should an analogue scope be required for anything in the future, so everything has worked out as planned. I still have the Rigol 1054Z for now, but may consider selling it once I am happy that everything is working correctly on the MSO5000.

Thank you to everyone who contributed advice and viewpoints to the discussion.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #443 on: December 20, 2022, 10:34:16 pm »
Quote
The adjustment on the probe I was using seemed not to have any effect although the test square wave seems pretty flat anyway. I haven't tested the remaining three probes yet.

Hmm....still a "problem" ?
This was known "long time ago" as I´ve got mine (and got no problems).

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2215035/#msg2215035

My pics of the compensation(with original and different probes):

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2217990/#msg2217990
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Offline WaveyDipoleTopic starter

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #444 on: December 21, 2022, 11:15:04 am »
In my rush yesterday it seems that I didn't set 10x attenuation on the scope. I had also assumed that the probes were set to 10x but the switches on these probes are the opposite way around to those on the DS1054Z and the other probes I have. That is, 10x is in the forward, not rear, position. They are also recessed. That is actually better as they do have a tendency to slip forward to the 1x position sometimes. I re-checked the probe I was using yesterday and all the remaining 3 and they have compensated just fine. No ringing or other issues.

After warming up the scope for over 30min I also ran the SelfCal which completed Ok. I also checked LXI and was able to grab screenshots. It also works with Sigrok PulseView and the HDMI output also works. At some point I will do some bandwidth tests.

The firmware on this unit is 00.01.03.00.03 and the build is dated 2018. I had a look on the Rigol website and AFAIKT this does seem to be the latest?
 

Offline mwb1100

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #445 on: December 22, 2022, 12:56:00 am »
The 1X/10X switches on the MSO5000 probes are awful.  Black switch on a black probe with the markings being just raised black plastic makes it a real challenge to know how they’re set.
 
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Offline oliv3r

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #446 on: January 03, 2023, 07:26:43 pm »
The 1X/10X switches on the MSO5000 probes are awful.  Black switch on a black probe with the markings being just raised black plastic makes it a real challenge to know how they’re set.
While I never realized this, you are right! Nothing a little white-out or some other paint won't fix though. Just very lightly put some over those numbers, should be able to only emphasize the digits. Should find me some paint and try it out now!

Offline mwb1100

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #447 on: January 03, 2023, 10:06:27 pm »
Nothing a little white-out or some other paint won't fix though. Just very lightly put some over those numbers, should be able to only emphasize the digits. Should find me some paint and try it out now!

That's exactly what I did.  Except that since my artistic skills are worse than a kindergartner's I have blobs of white on the 10x position (both the switch and the surrounding probe area).  I'd post a pic, but there are some things that are too shameful even for me.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #448 on: January 03, 2023, 10:25:28 pm »
I hate switchable probes...
But the rigol ones (PVP2350, look at it´s price and you got 4 pcs with the scope..) are clever designed:
Embedded switch and the 1:1 position is to switch in opposite directions, you can't accidentally switch to it by slipping your finger - Something that was always the problem with our probes and we had consistently glued all switches back then. :P

« Last Edit: January 03, 2023, 10:27:10 pm by Martin72 »
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Offline ballsystemlord

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #449 on: April 18, 2023, 02:37:44 pm »
It really depends on what you want to do with it.
I got one of those, plus the logic analyzer, and it's a great tool.

But it's not everything I wanted. You see, and this is just out of curiosity and for street credit, I wanted to debug a PCIe 3.0 problem with my PC -- and I can't do that with a 350Mhz scope. What happened, you ask. I own, a PCIe->SATA card. It claims to use as it's chipset the ASM1064 (It's PCIe x4, so I think it's really ASM1166, but I can't tell unless I take the card apart.) When I plug the card into my AMD Zen2 powered PC's PCIe slot, so this is direct to CPU connection on the second x16 slot, the system fails to POST. The BIOS reports an error initializing the main memory, then an error about initializing the chipset, then it reboots. Now, a PCIe card is not main memory, and not at all related to the chipset. However, if I plug the card into the x4 PCIe connector that goes to the chipset, the system boots normally. I returned the CPU, and the MB, multiple times without any change to this. I didn't even know it was the AIC until one day I didn't feel like plugging it in and my PC booted!!!

I still need to tell AMD and ASMedia about this. I was holding off hoping that when I got an oscilloscope I could debug it, little did I know how fast these buses differential pairs are.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 03:25:02 pm by ballsystemlord »
 


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