Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?

[balnazzar]

At work we got SDS2104X+, 1104X-E and rigol ds1054Z and of course lecroy scopes.
When it´s interesting I can compare them on 2mVpp in the next week.

Yes please. If you have A-brand scopes please test them on the same signal too.

Thanks!

[gf]

Also, may I see the FFT of that noise plagued 2mVpp signal?

Already the FFT of the noise floor alone at 2mV/div were interesting.
Is it almost flat up to 4GHz, or is a clear downwards step at the max. BW of the frontend (500MHz?) visible?

I also wonder how 2mV/div is realized on this scope. Is it a regular analog gain stage in front of the ADC, or does it possible utilize some kind of "digital gain" of the ADC?

[2N3055]

Also, may I see the FFT of that noise plagued 2mVpp signal?

Already the FFT of the noise floor alone at 2mV/div were interesting.
Is it almost flat up to 4GHz, or is a clear downwards step at the max. BW of the frontend (500MHz?) visible?

I also wonder how 2mV/div is realized on this scope. Is it a regular analog gain stage in front of the ADC, or does it possible utilize some kind of "digital gain" of the ADC?

D.S:
Note[3]: 1 mV/div and 2 mV/div are a magnification of 4 mV/div setting. For vertical accuracy calculations, use full scale of 32 mV for 1 mV/div and 2 mV/div sensitivity setting

That is also a part of the problem on these ranges

[Martin72]

Yes please. If you have A-brand scopes please test them on the same signal too.

I think, a HDO6034A(12 bit, 10GSa/s) and a WR9054(8 bit, 20GSa/s) are A-brand enough...
We only payed 26000€ for both(-42% off)...

[balnazzar]

Yes please. If you have A-brand scopes please test them on the same signal too.

I think, a HDO6034A(12 bit, 10GSa/s) and a WR9054(8 bit, 20GSa/s) are A-brand enough...
We only payed 26000€ for both(-42% off)...

Are they built by Siglent?

[balnazzar]

Are they built by Siglent?

It was a joke, by the way. 

(before I get eaten alive...)

[Martin72]

Nahh you won´t...
True facts are, the Wavesurfer 3000Z and the Wavesurfer 4000HD series from lecroy are made by siglent.

[nctnico]

Yes please. If you have A-brand scopes please test them on the same signal too.

I think, a HDO6034A(12 bit, 10GSa/s) and a WR9054(8 bit, 20GSa/s) are A-brand enough...
We only payed 26000€ for both(-42% off)...

Are they built by Siglent?

It would not surprise me. Siglent is very good at hardware design and as Martin72 wrote, Siglent is the OEM for several Lecroy scopes. What I've seen from the Lecroy equipment I own and have owned, Lecroy's hardware design skills aren't that good.

[Martin72]

Don´t know where lecroy come from, but the 9300/9400 series are made in switzerland.
The Wavesurfer/Waverunner in the 2000´s are made by Iwatsu/Japan.
WavePro/WaveMaster at that time I don´t know...
HDO/WR actually made/assembled in USA.

[tautech]

Wny is the 3.7 mV signal in the image above so blurred? Don't tell me it's the scope's front end...

Indeed. Actualy the signal is about 2 mVpp but because of the noise anvelope added, scope don't mesure it corectly.

 

Is the BW limitation engaged??

No, look at the ch3 box whereas in the shot from Martin he has the 20 MHz BW limit engaged signified by the B in the channel box.

This is the thing with a DSO, especially when users have limited experience with them but more with a CRO where looking at the front panel indicates what settings are made/engaged which is next to useless when sharing display pics online where instead a DSO has so so so much more info on the display plus astute selection of appropriate menus shows more again.

[skander36]

Wny is the 3.7 mV signal in the image above so blurred? Don't tell me it's the scope's front end...

Indeed. Actualy the signal is about 2 mVpp but because of the noise anvelope added, scope don't mesure it corectly.

 

Is the BW limitation engaged??

No it isn't.
Attached are some screenshots from Rigol 5K and other scopes with the same signal but with BW limit 20MHz active.

[Martin72]

The 10bit R&S, no wonder, "wins"...

[tautech]

The 10bit R&S, no wonder, "wins"...

SDS2000X Plus in 10 bit mode can challenge it and at much less cost.....remember you had one of those. 

[Martin72]

Yepp, but this was not part of the "challenge" he posted..

[Fungus]

Wny is the 3.7 mV signal in the image above so blurred? Don't tell me it's the scope's front end...

Because that's what noise looks like in real life.

But all this was already measured many times and posted many times. It is proven fact. It is only this one guy that keeps repeating it is good enough for everybody and that preamp solves everything. And that it is me who invented all this and noise is not the issue. It actually doesn't exist and we are all shills inventing it...

Complete bollocks.

All I ever said was that amplifiers exist (proven) and that "in a pinch" there's settings and things you can fiddle with to see the signal. This is also a proven fact.

eg. Here's the signal with averaging on (of course it's not perfect, but you can see it):


If it's not a repetitive signal then there's hires mode, heatmap mode, etc.


There's a forum member "tggzzz" with an applicable sig:

Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span".
Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".

[Fungus]

It's not a 200$ instrument. It's a 1 grand instrument.

Actually a $800 instrument, but who's counting.

Ok, the bundle, the bandwidth, the sampling rate and the memory depth.

And the AWG.

But how could they put such a bad front end on it? They spoiled their product.

Short version: It was their first attempt at an ASIC and they messed up.

(They're back now though, with a new ASIC and a new OS).

maybe you live above 100 mV, but you may need to get under that every now and then, for a variety of reasons..

If it's only "every now and then" you can fiddle with the settings a bit and squint your eyes.

Or ... get a $5 amplifier.

Or ... use your skill and imagination.

The real question is: What do you get in exchange for having to do that "every now and again"? A nice soldering iron, a power supply, a hot air gun, a thermal camera, some decent cutters, screwdrivers, etc. Stuff that makes life better and that you're going to use "all day long".

That's my point.

[Fungus]

Attached are some screenshots from Rigol 5K and other scopes with the same signal but with BW limit 20MHz active.

If we're having a request day: What does the MSO5000 look like with that signal and various hires mode settings?

We can end several debates in a single thread. 

Is it time to lock this one?

Turns out this is one of the most productive threads in a long time.

[balnazzar]

Attached are some screenshots from Rigol 5K and other scopes with the same signal but with BW limit 20MHz active.

If we're having a request day: What does the MSO5000 look like with that signal and various hires mode settings?

Is it time to lock this one?

Turns out this is one of the most productive threads in a long time.

Yes, I'd like to see the same signal with the HR mode enabled on the 5K, and yes, this thread is proving itself to be quite informative.

Tell me one thing, folks.
Why the signal on the Keysight appears so sh*ty?? It's no better than Rigol's.
And while the R&S wins easily (10 bit), the Micsig fares pretty good..

[balnazzar]

The 10bit R&S, no wonder, "wins"...

SDS2000X Plus in 10 bit mode can challenge it and at much less cost.....remember you had one of those. 

That's why I explicitly requested the same signal captured with the 2x+

[tautech]

The 10bit R&S, no wonder, "wins"...

SDS2000X Plus in 10 bit mode can challenge it and at much less cost.....remember you had one of those. 

That's why I explicitly requested the same signal captured with the 2x+

Sorry sold out or otherwise I would oblige. 
Only the X-E like yours and a SDS6000A in stock until more arrives.
BTW, do you want a proper chat about SDS5kX, I have some comments that might be of interest. Email me.

[skander36]

If we're having a request day: What does the MSO5000 look like with that signal and various hires mode settings?

Well, Hires mode does not help too much at this level of signals. Neither RTB2k don't do any better. I'm sure that there is an engineering or mathematical explanation but I can't provide it.
The best method I use is to do single capture rather than observe the single in real time. In this way i get a clear signal.
Another methods for 5K are HiMem, Average, and Color Grading.
Also for me there are very rare ocasions when I deal with so low level signals. Even in audio ... But I am just a hobbyist.

[balnazzar]

The 10bit R&S, no wonder, "wins"...

SDS2000X Plus in 10 bit mode can challenge it and at much less cost.....remember you had one of those. 

That's why I explicitly requested the same signal captured with the 2x+

Sorry sold out or otherwise I would oblige. 
Only the X-E like yours and a SDS6000A in stock until more arrives.
BTW, do you want a proper chat about SDS5kX, I have some comments that might be of interest. Email me.

I will, as soon as I know more about the fate of that scope. I'll go to the lab on wednesday. But you know, it's not my scope, and it's outside of the price range I can personally afford. But I'll ask.

As for the 2x+, I think Martin has it, and will test with that signal.

[balnazzar]

If we're having a request day: What does the MSO5000 look like with that signal and various hires mode settings?

Well, Hires mode does not help too much at this level of signals. Neither RTB2k don't do any better. I'm sure that there is an engineering or mathematical explanation but I can't provide it.
The best method I use is to do single capture rather than observe the single in real time. In this way i get a clear signal.
Another methods for 5K are HiMem, Average, and Color Grading.
Also for me there are very rare ocasions when I deal with so low level signals. Even in audio ... But I am just a hobbist.

It seems to me that HR did close to nothing in terms of noise mitigation. TBH it did nothing even on the RTB2k (which however provided a very good signal to start with).

Averaging it did, but averages are a no-go for non-repetitive signals.

[Fungus]

Well, Hires mode does not help too much at this level of signals.

I think it should do more than that.

You have to turn it on and set the number of oversamples (8x, 16x, 32x, etc). If it's only set to 2x then I wouldn't expect much reduction in noise.

(I can't see the number of samples in the screenshot so I'm not sure what it's doing exactly, that's why I'm saying this...)

[balnazzar]

I honestly think HR on scopes is overrated.. How many times you have to observe a perfectly repetitive signal upon which to oversample?
Many times you don't have a precise idea about what you are going to observe, and turning HR on could mask the real stuff you want to see...