Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?

[Hexley]

One feature I want in Oscope is hands free operation.  I have thought about doing this with some Python and MSO5000. 

By hands free I mean I want to use voice commands like "Single Shot", "Hold", "Autoset", "Zoom in", "Zoom out", "Reset Trigger", etc.  Wording and functionality might change but I think you get the idea.

There is nothing worse than probing something using microscope and trying to stop scope, autoset scope.  The worse is when scope probe slips as you try to one handed hold the probe and ground and blow up a chip.

It's a good idea, I think it's doable with any scope that supports SCPI (and python is OK for translating voice into SCPI commands).

A good implementation of this idea was made with speaker-independent voice recognition software on a Raspberry Pi. The following link gives an overview -- note that Jim made a number of improvements to improve speed and extend the command set over what is shown in the first video. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-voice-control-for-keysight-1000-x-scopes/

I have used this for a couple of years with various HPAK scopes and it is absolutely great for invoking "Single", changing trigger modes, setting probe attenuation, etc.

The package supports the MSO5000, so I guess it is appropriate for this thread. 

[balnazzar]

One feature I want in Oscope is hands free operation.  I have thought about doing this with some Python and MSO5000. 

By hands free I mean I want to use voice commands like "Single Shot", "Hold", "Autoset", "Zoom in", "Zoom out", "Reset Trigger", etc.  Wording and functionality might change but I think you get the idea.

There is nothing worse than probing something using microscope and trying to stop scope, autoset scope.  The worse is when scope probe slips as you try to one handed hold the probe and ground and blow up a chip.

It's a good idea, I think it's doable with any scope that supports SCPI (and python is OK for translating voice into SCPI commands).

A good implementation of this idea was made with speaker-independent voice recognition software on a Raspberry Pi. The following link gives an overview -- note that Jim made a number of improvements to improve speed and extend the command set over what is shown in the first video. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-voice-control-for-keysight-1000-x-scopes/

I have used this for a couple of years with various HPAK scopes and it is absolutely great for invoking "Single", changing trigger modes, setting probe attenuation, etc.

The package supports the MSO5000, so I guess it is appropriate for this thread. 

Thanks for the link, it will come useful. I'd try and put it to use it as well. You know, if you use a Jetson and neural network based voice recognition, the NN will learn and recognize your voice better and better.. Would be worth a try..

[Fungus]

@WaveyDipole - About a preamplifier, I found that a good one (linear from 10 Hz to 500 MHz for ex.) is expensive and not justifiable for this scope.

Yeah, a full-range amplifier is going to be expensive. You'll probably need two for low/high frequency ranges.

A 5$ one can be found working from few MHz low limit, so you will miss audio range.

For DC-to-audio range you can probably do it with a $5 opamp.

(...maybe even from DC up to the 20Mhz bandwidth limiter)

[Fungus]

The setup was : AWG 2ch - Sinus 8 MHz 2mVpp and scope Ch1 - signal from AWG through cheap amp., and  Ch2 direct signal from AWG .

Awesome! Thanks for posting that!

PS: Can you name the amplifier?

[skander36]

PS: Can you name the amplifier?

It is a cheap one from Aliexpress :
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000723079878.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.11751802Z5bnPM
It contain  SBB-5089Z. I'm using it a a preamp for a portable spectrum analyzer (also from Aliexpress ) but without notable results.

[2N3055]

@WaveyDipole - About a preamplifier, I found that a good one (linear from 10 Hz to 500 MHz for ex.) is expensive and not justifiable for this scope.

Yeah, a full-range amplifier is going to be expensive. You'll probably need two for low/high frequency ranges.

A 5$ one can be found working from few MHz low limit, so you will miss audio range.

For DC-to-audio range you can probably do it with a $5 opamp.

(...maybe even from DC up to the 20Mhz bandwidth limiter)

Just make sure that amplifier has input impedance, amplification and range that is fit for purpose.

That is why scope input is special:
BW from DC - 500MHz
sensitivity 500uV/div to 10V/div
Input impedance 1MΩ/50Ω
All in one.

You might need more than one or two preamps.. Or as you correctly noted on that one made just for that purpose and that is going to be expensive..

[skander36]

Thanks 2N3055 !
Yes I made this test just to show how a cheap amp can behave. Of course there are many things that can be improved, by taking account of what you are listed.
For me the scope itself is a very good one, best in it's class price, as many said here.
It definitely worth buying, if the op does not consider investing in SDS2104X or RTB2K.

[2N3055]

Thanks 2N3055 !
Yes I made this test just to show how a cheap amp can behave. Of course there are many things that can be improved, by taking account of what you are listed.
For me the scope itself is a very good one, best in it's class price, as many said here.
It definitely worth buying, if the op does not consider investing in SDS2104X or RTB2K.

Yes I agree that is the case.

[balnazzar]

Wny is the 3.7 mV signal in the image above so blurred? Don't tell me it's the scope's front end...

[nctnico]

PS: Can you name the amplifier?

It is a cheap one from Aliexpress :
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000723079878.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.11751802Z5bnPM
It contain  SBB-5089Z. I'm using it a a preamp for a portable spectrum analyzer (also from Aliexpress ) but without notable results.

But the noise figure isn't stellar. This one has a much better noise performance (0.6dB): https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005001437872322.html I actually tried to find a more low noise MMIC to replace the existing MMIC but I couldn't find a suitable one.

[Martin72]

Don't tell me it's the scope's front end...

Well....
Here one of the last pics of my MSO5074..

[2N3055]

Wny is the 3.7 mV signal in the image above so blurred? Don't tell me it's the scope's front end...

It is..

That was my point all the time..

[skander36]

Wny is the 3.7 mV signal in the image above so blurred? Don't tell me it's the scope's front end...

Indeed. Actualy the signal is about 2 mVpp but because of the noise anvelope added, scope don't mesure it corectly. 

[balnazzar]

Don't tell me it's the scope's front end...

Well....
Here one of the last pics of my MSO5074..

Wny is the 3.7 mV signal in the image above so blurred? Don't tell me it's the scope's front end...

It is..

That was my point all the time..

That's not acceptable. Maybe the 20M bandwidth limitation is not active. Here is a screenshot of my Owon 1022i capturing a signal of comparable amplitude (if I set less than 4 mVpp the crappy UNI-T awg outputs wildly distorted stuff). Note that I'm NOT averaging anything. It's a 100$ scope.

I don't have the AD2 at hand right now, I left it in the car. Will test tomorrow...

[balnazzar]

Wny is the 3.7 mV signal in the image above so blurred? Don't tell me it's the scope's front end...

Indeed. Actualy the signal is about 2 mVpp but because of the noise anvelope added, scope don't mesure it corectly.

 

Is the BW limitation engaged??

[balnazzar]

Also, may I see the FFT of that noise plagued 2mVpp signal?

[2N3055]

And as a point of reference here is the signal on SDS2354X HD.
Before you guys attack me I know it is not a fair fight. It is expensive 12 bit scope.
I'm just showing that i can easily achieve those figures without any preamps with just scope inputs while retaining full calibration and accuracy of AC/DC measurements. With a flick of a input attenuator knob.
20 MHz BW limit is on, no need for 500MHz BW in this case.
No ERES.

This is not comparison. I don't expect MSO5000 to be that good (new HDO1000/4000 might be close though).
This is demonstration for those who don't know what is and what isn't feasible and what is realistic.  My 16 bit Picoscope is even better but that is not a general purpose scope.
Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS2104X+ and Micsig STO1104C are not as good as this, but much closer to this than to MSO5000. There are many other that are probably also OK but those I know for sure.

But if you are not working on low level audio, sensor technique and mostly spend life over 100 mV, MSO5000 is killer scope for the price...

[Martin72]

Is the BW limitation engaged??

No, otherwise a "B" will be shown in the channel info box.
My pic, the signal is bandwithlimited but also "blurred".

[balnazzar]

Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS2104X+ and Micsig STO1104C are not as good as this, but much closer to this than

If you have these instruments at hand (or at work), please post the same 2 mVpp signal.

[Martin72]

But if you are not working on low level audio, sensor technique and mostly spend life over 100 mV, MSO5000 is killer scope for the price...

Signing this.

[balnazzar]

Is the BW limitation engaged??

No, otherwise a "B" will be shown in the channel info box.
My pic, the signal is bandwithlimited but also "blurred".

I think it's not acceptable to get such results. Ok, maybe you live above 100 mV, but you may need to get under that every now and then, for a variety of reasons..
It's not a 200$ instrument. It's a 1 grand instrument. Ok, the bundle, the bandwidth, the sampling rate and the memory depth.. But how could they put such a bad front end on it? They spoiled their product.

[Martin72]

I tried to make ripple measurement without success or with many tricks to get a plausible signal.
Then asking rigol support what about the much more expensive 7000 series, did they got lower noise frontends ?
The answer from the support was a killer for me.
Frontend is the same...
Look at Daves video from the 5000 as it came up.
He said "you won´t use this for low level measurements".

[balnazzar]

Then asking rigol support what about the much more expensive 7000 series, did they got lower noise frontends ?
The answer from the support was a killer for me.
Frontend is the same...

 

[2N3055]

Siglent SDS1104X-E and SDS2104X+ and Micsig STO1104C are not as good as this, but much closer to this than

If you have these instruments at hand (or at work), please post the same 2 mVpp signal.

I don't have SDS1104X-E or SDS2104X+ here. Many others do though. My Micisg is not here so, no, I cannot.
But all this was already measured many times and posted many times. It is proven fact. It is only this one guy that keeps repeating it is good enough for everybody and that preamp solves everything. And that it is me who invented all this and noise is not the issue. It actually doesn't exist and we are all shills inventing it...

And another point of reference and I will stop then. These specs are reason why our friend Martin72 shelled out serious money for SDS2000X HD:

1.63 mvP-P (520 uV RMS) 10 kHz sinewave, at 200uV/div in zoom mode. Eres 2.0 enabled (still some 110MHz BW, not max ERES)

[Martin72]

At work we got SDS2104X+, 1104X-E and rigol ds1054Z and of course lecroy scopes.
When it´s interesting I can compare them on 2mVpp in the next week.

These specs are reason why our friend Martin72 shelled out serious money for SDS2000X HD

Exactly, don´t need it now but in middle close future it will be important.