Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?

[Sighound36]

This thread has gone round in circles for orbits of the earth 

FWIW's this is my take on this:

I have many scopes personally, some fall into the catagory Dave's video mentioned with rolled eyes (lol), some are what I would consider to be a basic. However they all perform the same job to a greater or lesser degree.

You have to ask yourself what do I really need in a bench scope & features for my personal EE projects?
Look at your budget, look at what other equipment you could obtain for this outlay as well?
A well-equipped hobbyist lab will benefit from more than just a 2K usd scope imho
Quality cutters, tweezers, pliers, soldering station, lights, microscope are all used daily along with a good DVM, prototyping board, a PC / Lap top software the list goes on.........keep a balanced view it will pay dividends in the long run. Make life easy for yourself having a good scope is great, but also having a smooth running and easy to use and hassle free (‘ish) free lab imho is more preferable that having a single star item.

What are you looking for in a scope, BW, resolution, sample rate, memory depth, probe support, logic analysis, gain accuracy, jitter apps etc.
Oh and cost that’s the big one?

What we would really like and what reality turns out to be are usually not the same.

I use a mixture of Keysight/Rigol/Siglent/Lecroy scopes, each has a place and each is capable of doing the job it has been allocated for.
We are power supply (linear & smps)/mixed signal/high speed serial data chaps, so larger BW/12bit/quality apps are essential for ourselves, at home my scopes are 12bit 200Mhz daily drivers with one 4Ghz 12 bit. On the audio repair bench Rigol & Siglent scopes they are also on the project bench. They perform admirably well for cost and feature set.

My advice would be to think about what you REALLY need to make your projects fun, meaning and insightful, but also think about how many other day to day tools you could also obtain if you didn't need 20G/s & 2Gp of memory!

Also remeber that specilist probes & software arn't always a hack away, and everyone's own level of experinace is different, there are some very clever chaps will special skill sets here who do share their expertise and knowledge.

Also remember that your lab is your domain and know and understand your person limitations and aspirations and what your goals are.

The question posed is very pertinent and very valid.

Prehaps this could be the start of a series of threads (new section Dave?) helping young and upcoming EE's choose quality low cost lab equipment for day to day use, why do you chaps feel?

[nctnico]

Prehaps this could be the start of a series of threads (new section Dave?) helping young and upcoming EE's choose quality low cost lab equipment for day to day use, why do you chaps feel?

IMHO those already exist on this forum. Besides test equipment there are also several tool related sections. Still I disagree with tools needing to be low cost specifically. I'd say 'worth spending money on'.

[Fungus]

My advice would be to think about what you REALLY need to make your projects fun, meaning and insightful

The problem is that newbies never know that.

(and the resident salesmen have an easy time going in and spreading FUD as soon as they spot the "what 'scope should I buy?" thread)

[Martin72]

The problem is that newbies never know that.

At least they know that they need a scope..
That´s worth a lot.

[2N3055]

My advice would be to think about what you REALLY need to make your projects fun, meaning and insightful

The problem is that newbies never know that.

(and the resident salesmen have an easy time going in and spreading FUD as soon as they spot the "what 'scope should I buy?" thread)

And some resident trolls confuse them with false statements. Such is Internet.

Who do you address here: a salesmen from R&S, a salesmen from Keysight or a salesmen from Siglent? Or all of them?

As for Siglent, Tautech helped many people regardless of what they were buying. Yes he can be a bit enthusiastic sometimes. He doesn't work for Siglent, but has its own company. He believes in stuff he sells and company that makes it. That is how it should be. He is open about selling Siglent and it is in his signature. And what do you think he gains by helping a person from Italy or France? He's from New Zealand, also an public knowledge.
Other people From Keysight and R&S work for the manufacturers and might have direct interest, but despite that have been perfectly professional and never crossed the line.
If there are any other salesmen here I don't know about them...

[nctnico]

As for Siglent, Tautech helped many people regardless of what they were buying. Yes he can be a bit enthusiastic sometimes. He doesn't work for Siglent, but has its own company. He believes in stuff he sells and company that makes it. That is how it should be. He is open about selling Siglent and it is in his signature. And what do you think he gains by helping a person from Italy or France? He's from New Zealand, also an public knowledge.
Other people From Keysight and R&S work for the manufacturers and might have direct interest, but despite that have been perfectly professional and never crossed the line.

I can show you a couple of posts that prove otherwise. From inappropriate to the question at hand to some that got tautech banned to cool off for a while. On top of that his knowledge seems limited and doesn't exceed what he is selling. Not exactly a source of balanced / unbiased information. He looks like a good Siglent dealer to buy from though. One really cares for his customers and goes above and beyond -don't get me wrong there-.

If there are any other salesmen here I don't know about them...

There are quite a few on this forum that have undisclosed interests in Siglent.

[2N3055]

As for Siglent, Tautech helped many people regardless of what they were buying. Yes he can be a bit enthusiastic sometimes. He doesn't work for Siglent, but has its own company. He believes in stuff he sells and company that makes it. That is how it should be. He is open about selling Siglent and it is in his signature. And what do you think he gains by helping a person from Italy or France? He's from New Zealand, also an public knowledge.
Other people From Keysight and R&S work for the manufacturers and might have direct interest, but despite that have been perfectly professional and never crossed the line.

I can show you a couple of posts that prove otherwise. From inappropriate to the question at hand to some that got tautech banned to cool off for a while. On top of that his knowledge seems limited and doesn't exceed what he is selling. Not exactly a source of balanced / unbiased information. He looks like a good Siglent dealer to buy from though. One really cares for his customers and goes above and beyond -don't get me wrong there-.

If there are any other salesmen here I don't know about them...

There are quite a few on this forum that have undisclosed interests in Siglent.

I'll take your word for it. I don't exactly follow his every post and he has been here on forum for much longer than I am.

As for "undisclosed ones", there are many here that seem that way for number of other brands. People who fight for Rigol DS1000Z with fervor and then sell it and then have same passion for Micsig. You yourself advocate Tek and R&S whenever you can. Do you have any vested interest? Or you just like it and are passionate about your choices?
Or what about "don't buy chinese shit" crowd, what is their motivation? Do they get paid to do it or just have strong political motives?
Being paranoid is slippery slope.
Sure there can be all kinds of people here.

That is why we have to fight it with real data and civilized discussion.
Dave himself made a problem himself on occasion, with few of his videos where he chose clickbait titles. Not that i blame him for anything, that is the business he's in.
Problem with clickbait topics and videos is that clickbait title gets remembered and rational discussion is too long to read. So bombastic statement stays even if it is explained inside that it is the opposite or something third.
Not that it is his or anybody's intention to confuse but it happens anyways sometimes.

[nctnico]

As for Siglent, Tautech helped many people regardless of what they were buying. Yes he can be a bit enthusiastic sometimes. He doesn't work for Siglent, but has its own company. He believes in stuff he sells and company that makes it. That is how it should be. He is open about selling Siglent and it is in his signature. And what do you think he gains by helping a person from Italy or France? He's from New Zealand, also an public knowledge.
Other people From Keysight and R&S work for the manufacturers and might have direct interest, but despite that have been perfectly professional and never crossed the line.

I can show you a couple of posts that prove otherwise. From inappropriate to the question at hand to some that got tautech banned to cool off for a while. On top of that his knowledge seems limited and doesn't exceed what he is selling. Not exactly a source of balanced / unbiased information. He looks like a good Siglent dealer to buy from though. One really cares for his customers and goes above and beyond -don't get me wrong there-.

If there are any other salesmen here I don't know about them...

There are quite a few on this forum that have undisclosed interests in Siglent.

I'll take your word for it. I don't exactly follow his every post and he has been here on forum for much longer than I am.

As for "undisclosed ones", there are many here that seem that way for number of other brands. People who fight for Rigol DS1000Z with fervor and then sell it and then have same passion for Micsig. You yourself advocate Tek and R&S whenever you can.

Nope. Read more carefully. I own / have owned & used almost every brand of oscilloscope that is out there. Based on that I try to recommend what I think is most suitable for the given situation. If you read my posts, you'll see I also recommend oscilloscopes from GW Instek, Lecroy, Micsig or Yokogawa. But you'll also find me pointing out what I think are the shortcomings. On top of that, I also like people to consider options that are mentioned less often on this forum where many seem to Pavlov / knee-jerk towards Rigol or Siglent without considering what else is out there. I like to think that it helps people to make a well informed decission taking all options into account (although in some cases it leads to analysis paralysis  )

[2N3055]

As for Siglent, Tautech helped many people regardless of what they were buying. Yes he can be a bit enthusiastic sometimes. He doesn't work for Siglent, but has its own company. He believes in stuff he sells and company that makes it. That is how it should be. He is open about selling Siglent and it is in his signature. And what do you think he gains by helping a person from Italy or France? He's from New Zealand, also an public knowledge.
Other people From Keysight and R&S work for the manufacturers and might have direct interest, but despite that have been perfectly professional and never crossed the line.

I can show you a couple of posts that prove otherwise. From inappropriate to the question at hand to some that got tautech banned to cool off for a while. On top of that his knowledge seems limited and doesn't exceed what he is selling. Not exactly a source of balanced / unbiased information. He looks like a good Siglent dealer to buy from though. One really cares for his customers and goes above and beyond -don't get me wrong there-.

If there are any other salesmen here I don't know about them...

There are quite a few on this forum that have undisclosed interests in Siglent.

I'll take your word for it. I don't exactly follow his every post and he has been here on forum for much longer than I am.

As for "undisclosed ones", there are many here that seem that way for number of other brands. People who fight for Rigol DS1000Z with fervor and then sell it and then have same passion for Micsig. You yourself advocate Tek and R&S whenever you can.

Nope. Read more carefully. I own / have owned & used almost every brand of oscilloscope that is out there. Based on that I try to recommend what I think is most suitable for the given situation. If you read my posts, you'll see I also recommend oscilloscopes from GW Instek, Lecroy, Micsig or Yokogawa. But you'll also find me pointing out what I think are the shortcomings. On top of that, I also like people to consider options that are mentioned less often on this forum where many seem to Pavlov / knee-jerk towards Rigol or Siglent without considering what else is out there. I like to think that it helps people to make a well informed decission taking all options into account (although in some cases it leads to analysis paralysis  )

I know you are not, just saying that you are quite "passionate" about your choices sometimes and that could be construed for something else, when in fact it is simply that you have formed you opinions with time and stand by them.

[Simon]

I kind of draw the line at someone wanting to talk all about one of their peices of equipment instead of the topic at hand, the next time he does that he will be made to stop.

[jasonRF]

IMHO the whole discussion about what is overkill or not is entirely moot. There are people spending > $5k on mountainbikes, dirt bikes, audio gear or even a BBQ. Somebody I know, spend like 30k euro on an audio amplifier and a couple of speakers.

Nailed it, 100% !
None of us can quantify another's spend as overkill, none of us !

Sure we can.

We've been mocking the $2k speaker cable buyers since at least the 1970s.

If a $5k mountain bike doesn't buy much over a $1k bike then we can mock the $5k bike buyers as idiots.

Maybe the time of the $800 oscilloscope is here.

(for the "hobbyist" user - there's always going to be a small percentage of people who need extra...no argument there, but it's not everybody)

Of course you can claim that.
Since you routinely take a liberty to make all kinds of decisions for other people including hiding data, recommending stuff you never saw in real life, explaining and advocating stuff you don't understand and such.

It is quite a leap from calling an idiot a person that gives 5000 USD for speaker cables that I can buy for 20 USD, and a person that wants to buy 1500USD scope instead of 800USD scope, or 800USD scope instead of 350 USD scope.
These scope WILL have measurable differences in specifications and will in fact provide additional benefit for increased cost.

Whether that is important to purchaser it is only theirs choice.
For instance, my eyesight is not what it used to be.. I realized that I use Picoscope (with 23" screen) and SDS6000A more than my Keysight MSOX3104T for pretty much anything because it is simply easier to see because of bigger screen. So someone might splurge for MSO5000 even if DS1000Z would have been scope enough for them only for bigger screen. Someone will have to go for SDS200X+ if they want 50 Ω signal path in a scope or 500+ MHz BW.
OR if they want 50 Ω and 2 ch is enough from them they might go for odl DS2000A from Rigol they might get on sale from Rigol for very little money. Or something else ,whatever...
Some will work mostly on small signals and would need a scope that is better there.


What we can and should discuss is our opinions as to what we would and would not buy for ourselves and rationale behind our decisions so other people can have a point of reference and as a discussion.

I know, for instance, that on hobby stuff I have a sort of limit that is based on social environment I live in. I can justify buying MSOX1104T for work, where it paid off itself with time. But for "it's for playing", it is different.
It will be different for each country, and general economic status of each person.
I don't think there is a universal rule that would apply to all.
In some countries 100 USD is 2 months of food and in some it is pocket change.
Not to mention huge socioeconomic spread even in 1st world countries. In USA alone there are tens of millions of people in poverty. I assure you they have different purchasing power than someone earning 100K USD a year..

This.  When I bought my first scope in 2015ish, my budget was $200.  I could have afforded more but was doing at most one smallish project per year so I knew this was a casual hobby.    I am sure there was some $400 Rigol model at the time that was the eevblog-blessed minimum scope, but that would have been overkill for my needs and budget.   I ended up with a picoscope 2204a (so was my first signal generator, too) and had enough leftover to also buy my first temperature-controlled soldering iron (fixed-temperature Weller) that was orders of magnitude better than the crappy iron I had been using.   I learned so much with that scope, had many hours of enjoyment, and made some projects that I still use frequently.   

Many newbies looking for their first scope know little about electronics and cannot know whether it is a hobby that will “stick.”   And when they state a budget well below the cost of a ds1054z, there are often posts basically telling them to increase their budget.   I do realize this is part of the eevblog dogma, along with the belief that a usb scope can never (!) be a substitute for a bench scope.  But for people with fewer resources, or those of us with other priorities for our finances, the party line sometimes makes zero sense.

I upgraded my scope this summer, because I am spending many more hours on electronics and wanted at least 100 MHz bandwidth.   I went with a 2-channel usb scope.   Why?  Because of the high cost of 4-channel models (although I could have afforded one if I wanted it that much), and of course because one of those bench scopes can never be a substitute for a proper usb scope 

Jason
 

[nctnico]

Many newbies looking for their first scope know little about electronics and cannot know whether it is a hobby that will “stick.”   And when they state a budget well below the cost of a ds1054z, there are often posts basically telling them to increase their budget.   I do realize this is part of the eevblog dogma, along with the belief that a usb scope can never (!) be a substitute for a bench scope.  But for people with fewer resources, or those of us with other priorities for our finances, the party line sometimes makes zero sense.

That is true. IMHO one of the many cheap $50 mini oscilloscopes from Aliexpress/Amazon can already do a lot. 30+ years ago I would have traded my 20 MHz analog scope (which in today's money had cost the same as a Rigol MSO5000) for one of those devices without thinking.

[jasonRF]

Many newbies looking for their first scope know little about electronics and cannot know whether it is a hobby that will “stick.”   And when they state a budget well below the cost of a ds1054z, there are often posts basically telling them to increase their budget.   I do realize this is part of the eevblog dogma, along with the belief that a usb scope can never (!) be a substitute for a bench scope.  But for people with fewer resources, or those of us with other priorities for our finances, the party line sometimes makes zero sense.

That is true. IMHO one of the many cheap $50 mini oscilloscopes from Aliexpress/Amazon can already do a lot. 30+ years ago I would have traded my 20 MHz analog scope (which in today's money had cost the same as a Rigol MSO5000) for one of those devices without thinking.

Sometimes any functional scope is better than no scope! 

At the same time, I don’t think it would be overkill for the OP to buy this scope, or even one that is significantly more expensive.  If they can afford it and will get enjoyment out of it then why shouldn’t they?  We only live once! 

[Caliaxy]

Hello,

For example, if the SNR is better at 1 V/div than at 1 mV/div then a good amplifier can shift the small input signal to the range with better SNR and be quite useful.

IMHO you can't use SNR together with visualising a signal. If you amplify a signal, you'll add noise so compared to the original signal, the SNR will be worse. The fact that a higher amplitude signal is easier for an oscilloscope (or any measuring device) to work with doesn't change that.

I can't believe you are serious.

Any amplifier would amplify in equal extent the signal *and* the noise presented to its input, while adding a little bit of noise itself. Of course, it won't improve the SNR of the original signal in any way. However, here the assumption is not that the SNR of the original signal is too low to get a decent representation, but that the sensitivity of the input amplifier of the scope is at its limit (can't discern between signal and noise). So, amplifying the original signal would help presenting to the input stage of the scope a signal with an amplitude high enough so the noise it adds is not that relevant anymore.

Still, what you see on screen also contains noise from the amplifier. Real world example: recently I did some measurements on low level RF signals that where below my spectrum analyser's noise floor. I used an amplifier that has 20dB of gain in the frequency range I was measuring. This got me about 10 to 15dB extra room. Not 20dB.

True, but let's not forget what we are talking about here: would an amplifier help MSO5000 display low level signals which otherwise would be buried in noise? Yes, it would.

[nctnico]

Yes, but you can not say that SNR has improved (it has not); that is my point!

[Fungus]

Sometimes any functional scope is better than no scope! 

Always!

Many newbies looking for their first scope know little about electronics and cannot know whether it is a hobby that will “stick.”   And when they state a budget well below the cost of a ds1054z, there are often posts basically telling them to increase their budget.

Always!

One thing that usually isn't added though is that the $400 'scopes keep their value really well. You can probably sell it in a year and it only cost you as much as a cheap FNIRSI (which you won't be able to sell).

[Fungus]

Yes, but you can not say that SNR has improved (it has not); that is my point!

Yes, it's your point, and it's irrelevant.

[Fungus]

I ended up with a picoscope 2204a (so was my first signal generator, too) and had enough leftover to also buy my first temperature-controlled soldering iron (fixed-temperature Weller) that was orders of magnitude better than the crappy iron I had been using.   I learned so much with that scope, had many hours of enjoyment, and made some projects that I still use frequently.   

"Hobby" today usually includes Arduinos, etc., and a Picoscope 2204a can't even show the out put of an Arduino pin going at full speed.

I do realize this is part of the eevblog dogma, along with the belief that a usb scope can never (!) be a substitute for a bench scope.  But for people with fewer resources, or those of us with other priorities for our finances, the party line sometimes makes zero sense.

I upgraded my scope this summer, because I am spending many more hours on electronics and wanted at least 100 MHz bandwidth.   I went with a 2-channel usb scope.   Why?  Because of the high cost of 4-channel models

From what I can see, USB 'scopes have poor bang:buck.

(and something is wrong when you have to think twice about buying 4 channels these days - it's such an advantage...)

The other downside of USB 'scopes is that they're USB - you're forced to work alongside a PC. Even a FNIRSI has a big advantage in this respect. Would you want to own a PC-only multimeter?

[egonotto]

Yes, but you can not say that SNR has improved (it has not); that is my point!

Hello,

You are right that SNR of the signal has gotten worse. But the SNR of the representation of the signal can get better if the noise of the scope in the sensitive area is to blame.

Therefore, a preamplifier can sometimes mitigate the disadvantage of the poor noise behavior of the Rigol MSO5000. Hameg once had the HZ 37 preamplifier for their oscillographs.

Best Regards
egonotto

[Fungus]

I like to think that it helps people to make a well informed decision taking all options into account (although in some cases it leads to analysis paralysis  )

For a newbie? It invariably leads to analysis paralysis, often followed by "I'd better buy the most expensive one, just in case".

The thing that annoys me most is the FUD.

For example: Every time Micsig is mentioned there's a certain forum member who'll post "Beware the Micsig, it doesn't do statistics!"

If you're a newbie, that's FUD.

I admit it's weird that Micsig don't add that feature but can you live without it? Of course you can. If I need an average value I can squint my eyes at the jumping numbers and see it's approx. X.XX. If I need more accuracy I could press "single" half a dozen times and add the numbers up on my calculator then divide by 6. It would take me half a minute (heavens above!)

Would I throw away the big touch screen, easy-to-navigate UI, etc., just to get a convenient statistics button? Never in a million years!

A newbie doesn't see that though, all he sees is that it might be missing a checkbox item that some random EEVBLOG member says is essential.

The same goes for MSO5000 noise: Newbies come in asking about the MSO5000 and immediately get hot with the "noise" question. They suddenly have to know how much the noise will affect them and of course they have no idea. The FUD merchants instantly go to work again...

I'm not sure I'd even recommend an $800 'scope to somebody who doesn't know if they need to look at mV signals or not. I sure as hell wouldn't start trying to sell them a $1400 'scope instead. Plenty of people here have no problem doing that though.

[2N3055]

I ended up with a picoscope 2204a (so was my first signal generator, too) and had enough leftover to also buy my first temperature-controlled soldering iron (fixed-temperature Weller) that was orders of magnitude better than the crappy iron I had been using.   I learned so much with that scope, had many hours of enjoyment, and made some projects that I still use frequently.   

"Hobby" today usually includes Arduinos, etc., and a Picoscope 2204a can't even show the out put of an Arduino pin going at full speed.

I do realize this is part of the eevblog dogma, along with the belief that a usb scope can never (!) be a substitute for a bench scope.  But for people with fewer resources, or those of us with other priorities for our finances, the party line sometimes makes zero sense.

I upgraded my scope this summer, because I am spending many more hours on electronics and wanted at least 100 MHz bandwidth.   I went with a 2-channel usb scope.   Why?  Because of the high cost of 4-channel models

From what I can see, USB 'scopes have poor bang:buck.

(and something is wrong when you have to think twice about buying 4 channels these days - it's such an advantage...)

The other downside of USB 'scopes is that they're USB - you're forced to work alongside a PC. Even a FNIRSI has a big advantage in this respect. Would you want to own a PC-only multimeter?

Well, MSO5000 cannot show risetime of Arduino output realistically either.. You really need a 1GHz scope and active probe to see it.. So where we draw the line?
As for bang for buck on USB scope, again, you should prefix/suffix your statement with "for my use case" or "in my opinion, although never used one". I can argue they are very good bang for buck, because being PC dependent is not a problem but a virtue because it gains you many good things. 23" screen in full 4k resolution and 32 different viewpoints if you wish is there (even on cheapest hardware) etc etc. They decode more protocols than fully loaded Keysight MSOX3104T... They have great API where within half an hour you can start analysing data, and data transfer is blindingly fast compared to embedded scopes.

If your use of the scope is pretty much what you would do on analog CRT (view waveform, maybe use cursors, basic measurements) then
neither Picoscope nor any of the more sophisticated embedded scope make no sense. If you use digital scope as signal analyser than Picoscopes have many advanced features form high end scopes. But if you don't need them, then they obviously are not for you, duh. Simple as that.

[Fungus]

Well, MSO5000 cannot show risetime of Arduino output realistically either.

A 16Mhz Arduino can output an 8Mhz signal on a pin. An MSO5000 would show that quite well.

Your 10MHz Picoscope? Not so much.

[2N3055]

I like to think that it helps people to make a well informed decision taking all options into account (although in some cases it leads to analysis paralysis  )

For a newbie? It invariably leads to analysis paralysis, often followed by "I'd better buy the most expensive one, just in case".

The thing that annoys me most is the FUD.

For example: Every time Micsig is mentioned there's a certain forum member who'll post "Beware the Micsig, it doesn't do statistics!"

If you're a newbie, that's FUD.

I admit it's weird that Micsig don't add that feature but can you live without it? Of course you can. If I need an average value I can squint my eyes at the jumping numbers and see it's approx. X.XX. If I need more accuracy I could press "single" half a dozen times and add the numbers up on my calculator then divide by 6. It would take me half a minute (heavens above!)

Would I throw away the big touch screen, easy-to-navigate UI, etc., just to get a convenient statistics button? Never in a million years!

A newbie doesn't see that though, all he sees is that it might be missing a checkbox item that some random EEVBLOG member says is essential.

The same goes for MSO5000 noise: Newbies come in asking about the MSO5000 and immediately get hot with the "noise" question. They suddenly have to know how much the noise will affect them and of course they have no idea. The FUD merchants instantly go to work again...

I'm not sure I'd even recommend an $800 'scope to somebody who doesn't know if they need to look at mV signals or not. I sure as hell wouldn't start trying to sell them a $1400 'scope instead. Plenty of people here have no problem doing that though.

Again, "I don't use it, so it is not important to anybody.." shit.
Micsig doesn't do statistics on measurements. If you don't understand why is that basic requirement, that even 100 USD scopes have it and why it is important, than you have no clue how to use scope, have no knowledge about measurement science and should stop posting any "advice" about scopes to beginners because you have no clue. Be an responsible adult and stop.

Same with noise. Every instrument have noise floor. Learning about noise floor and noise processes in general is, like, half of the electronics... Some have higher noise floor, some lower.  It is something that has to be taught not hidden, so Fungus can sell more MSO5000 to people. If MSO5000 is good enough in that regard (and best buy for money for a hobby users) than that is it, but it didn't make noise go away, it just made it acceptable within circumstances.

Noise argument wasn't even mentioned as a problem by me in this topic (i mentioned it because it is true, but I said it probably is OK for OP and said there is no alternative to MSO5000 based on price, especially after last price drop). Noise argument was from other topic (talk about who wants to confuse people to win an argument) where the likes of you tried to argue that when comparing MSO5000 to SDS2000X+ there is no difference in noise level that should bother people. Now, that was different topic from this one, and there we have proven there is huge difference in noise levels and for people who have money they should upgrade to better scope in that regard because it was worth it. And after all your bickering about how noise doesn't matter and we are all shills, Rigol releases 2 new scopes that as primary sales pitch have "we have low noise that makes us great". So you might check with Rigol whether you are wrong, if you don't trust us...

All the FUD and uncertainty here is spread by the likes of you who come with blanket statements and opinionated comments founded in lack  of knowledge, strong personal opinions that have nothing to do with data and Muttley Snickers persona that just likes anarchy..

And yes I do call out people by name not by " some dudes hurt my feelings"...

And to be P.C. I am not attacking you and your person. Just commenting on your behaviour.

[2N3055]

Well, MSO5000 cannot show risetime of Arduino output realistically either.

A 16Mhz Arduino can output an 8Mhz signal on a pin. An MSO5000 would show that quite well.

Your 10MHz Picoscope? Not so much.

Really ? You really have no clue what I am talking about here ? 

Yeah, that explains things..

[Fungus]

Really ? You really have no clue what I am talking about here ? 

This last post combined with all that SNR crap on the last page?

You're trolling. Pure and simple.

(page bookmarked so I can point people to it in the future whenever 2N3055 rears his head)