Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?

[WaveyDipole]

Given the detailed and somewhat heated discussion, I now understand that there is a difference in the implementation of the Zoom/History feature between oscilloscopes and this may be a factor to consider when making a purchase. I do not require any further information on this subject. Thank you.

Let me also take this opportunity to express appreciation for the meaningful and helpful contributions by some members in regards to other matters of concern.

[nctnico]

Scopes can render multiple acquisitions on top of each other onto the screen, and yes there are scopes that can display 120,000 triggers per second (or more) through to the screen.

Of course, but none of that is incompatible with being able to remember what was outside the screen and allowing the user to zoom out later.

Proof: Other 'scopes manage to do it.

You keep moving target and state deliberate controversies..

There are scopes that can capture outside the screen and do 1M wfms per second. True.
But not AT THE SAME TIME. Proof: Keysight 3000T in Digitizer mode VS normal realtime mode..

Nobody really cares because everyone understands that you can't have both deep memory and update rates at the same time. So why keep going on about that? In my case I don't need high update rates when zooming-out is most useful because the rate at which the signal of interest occurs ranges from seconds to minutes. This has been explained at length already.

And whether history buffers / segmented recording are useful depends on the type of work you are doing. For me using segmented recording has been a useful feature only once in the past decades. But I won't ever say that oscilloscope manufacturers should stop implementing it. Maybe I will need it again one day.

[Someone]

Scopes can render multiple acquisitions on top of each other onto the screen, and yes there are scopes that can display 120,000 triggers per second (or more) through to the screen.

Of course, but none of that is incompatible with being able to remember what was outside the screen and allowing the user to zoom out later.

Proof: Other 'scopes manage to do it.

Proof? Ok, show us a scope triggering 120,000 waveforms per second and the amount of memory around the visible screen that can be captured. Absolute best theoretical possible capture window is 8.3us, less than 100k samples at 10GS/s. Increase the capture depth and that trigger rate drops off, missing/losing triggers.

Simple as that. So your "proof" is still absolute nonsense. High trigger rates are incompatible with deep memory captures. Some scopes can do both, but never at the same time. Some times it might be useful to have the capture around the window, some times it won't be. They are competing performance specifications and one of them leads to missing trigger's/data.

Nobody really cares because everyone understands that you can't have both deep memory and update rates at the same time.

Seems Fungus missed that memo. ^^^

[Fungus]

I find R&S, LeCroy, Siglent, Picoscope type of history buffers (that actually remember 1000s of previous triggers) much more important and useful.  That is the feature that I would take into account in purchasing decision. Why nobody speaks about that...?

I believe that's "history mode" on a Siglent. It's something you can enable/disable and nothing to do with the topic at hand.

https://siglentna.com/operating-tip/siglent-x-series-oscilloscopes-sequence-history-mode/

In history mode it makes perfect sense to only save what's on screen, it maximizes the number of waveforms that can be stored.

When I press the STOP button, or use a single shot trigger in normal mode? It makes no sense at all.

[Someone]

In my case I don't need high update rates when zooming-out is most useful because the rate at which the signal of interest occurs ranges from seconds to minutes. This has been explained at length already.

Except every time you bring up this topic you dont say any of that and make out like this is some universal generalisation that applies to everything. Perhaps in future you can make that sort of reasonable statement at the start instead of being inflammatory?

[Martin72]

It's something you can enable/disable and nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Topic was/is:

Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?

Either it´s all offtopic or not.

[EEVblog]

          x1000

Give it a rest.

Are you here as moderator of would you engage with member Someone to fully flesh this discussion out ?

Why did you even post this? You are adding zero value.
I'm trying to gently nudge the thread back on topic.

[EEVblog]

In my case I don't need high update rates when zooming-out is most useful because the rate at which the signal of interest occurs ranges from seconds to minutes. This has been explained at length already.

Except every time you bring up this topic you dont say any of that and make out like this is some universal generalisation that applies to everything. Perhaps in future you can make that sort of reasonable statement at the start instead of being inflammatory?

Guys, take this debate to the existing thread about that exact topic. Don't post about this here again, it's clearly getting out of hand.

[Fungus]

Ok, is test device XXX overkill for hobby use?

That depends on your income, how much use it's going to get, and what you're trying to build.

It also depends on the device, eg. I could live with a $25 multimeter but I probably wouldn't want to live with a $200 oscilloscope.

So the answer is: "It depends".

[WaveyDipole]

Thanks Fungus. That the analog oscilloscopes I have cost around or less than that $200 figure you mention. Even though it has some useful measurement functions, I have unfortunately found the 200MHz PM3094 wanting on occasion and I feel it would be usefull to go to the next step. The thought mentioned earlier in the thread, regarding buying one instrument that will last for many years to come and job done, struck a cord and also harmonised with my goal of reducing both bench and storage space requirements.

However, it seems going to that next step requires a considerable jump in finance. If money were no object (which sadkly is not the case) then it wouldn't matter. However I did recently see a view on another thread that a causual hobby purchase of 800-900GBP would generally be considered unjustifiable. In any case, if I were going to spend that much, then I would want to ensure that there are no silly gotchas and its the right purchase.

I had also been looking at used equipment on eBay thinking that possibly the Tektronix 2465 or 2465A might be a suitable candidate or perhaps a LeCroy if I were fortunate enough to find one for the right price, but as has also been pointed out, these would come with the age/maintenance issue and I don't beleive that either have digital signal capabilities or a bode plot function and I do plan to do some work ewith filters. Neither would do anything for my bench space requirement, although selling the existing analog scopes would certainly reduce storage.

It seems, all things considered, that the most practical solution is probably to "bite the bullet" and make this one-off purchase. I noted the comment that there is nothing else in this price bracket to compare with the MSO5000 series. Out of curiosity I compared with Tektronix and Keysight scopes but for thedse we are talking about an altogether different price point. I also looked at the Micsig, and although they are very tempting, they don't quite meets my needs. They have bus decoding, but the 300MHz version has only two channels. The GW-Insteks are considerably more expensive in Europe than they are in the states making a purchase here not worthwhile. Adding to that, they have a much lower memory depth, only 1Gs/sec and none of the advanced features.

[nctnico]

Again: it doesn't make sense to set arbitrary limits on what is justifiable or not. Just spend what you think is reasonable. I have spend larger amounts on hobbies because I  wanted to concentrate on the hobby and not make do. A hobby is supposed to give you pleasure so having some comfort is ok

Calculate what some people spend on smoking per year...

BTW: make sure to do some tests on the MSO5000 when you get it. Especially if you can live with thick/ noisy traces. I used to own a DSO that had fat traces and that got rather annoying at some point. But this is a very personal preference.

[tautech]

          x1000

Give it a rest.

Are you here as moderator of would you engage with member Someone to fully flesh this discussion out ?

Why did you even post this? You are adding zero value.

Hardly, but below shows why you jumped in rather than some cryptic: Give it a rest.

I'm trying to gently nudge the thread back on topic.

Thank you, it would be beneficial to us all if you made your wishes clearer. 

[Simon]

I don't rate the signal generator on the MSO5000, it sort of may do 5V if you can work out how, today it seemed intent on only outputting 1.25V, totally random. Just get a proper sig gen.

[tautech]

In my case I don't need high update rates when zooming-out is most useful because the rate at which the signal of interest occurs ranges from seconds to minutes. This has been explained at length already.

Except every time you bring up this topic you dont say any of that and make out like this is some universal generalisation that applies to everything. Perhaps in future you can make that sort of reasonable statement at the start instead of being inflammatory?

Guys, take this debate to the existing thread about that exact topic. Don't post about this here again, it's clearly getting out of hand.

I took the trouble to find it:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-zoom-out-quirk/

Maybe you should also consider updating your videos on this matter based on what's available in 2022 and the finer points of discussion in this thread. Do take particular notice of input from members Someone and 2N3055.

Then you could also grab a pile of posts from here and dump them in that thread to revitalise it. 

[Martin72]

I don't rate the signal generator on the MSO5000, it sort of may do 5V if you can work out how, today it seemed intent on only outputting 1.25V, totally random. Just get a proper sig gen.

Max. amplitude is +/- 2.5V at high Z and +/-1.25V on 50Ohms.
This it now and this was it when I´ve bought mine in 2018.

[EEVblog]

I don't rate the signal generator on the MSO5000, it sort of may do 5V if you can work out how, today it seemed intent on only outputting 1.25V, totally random.

 
How does that happen?

[EEVblog]

Ok, is test device XXX overkill for hobby use?
That depends on your income, how much use it's going to get, and what you're trying to build.
It also depends on the device, eg. I could live with a $25 multimeter but I probably wouldn't want to live with a $200 oscilloscope.
So the answer is: "It depends".

Yes, this.
A new 4CH $400 DSO provides so much functionality difference to a 2nd hand old scope or a new 2CH $200 cheapie no-name digital that it's a no-brainer to fork out the extra cash.
Not so much for say a new $800 scope vs the $400 ones, but it might offer something extra nice like a bigger screen or some specific extra function you really need.
Once you get into the 4 digit price category then it can be argued that you are now "overkill" compared to the cheaper models for general hobbyist use.
So yeah, I'd draw the line at the $799 MSO5000 as being the upper end before "overkill" kicks in for hobby use.

[Martin72]

I don't rate the signal generator on the MSO5000, it sort of may do 5V if you can work out how, today it seemed intent on only outputting 1.25V, totally random.

 
How does that happen?

Overlooked my answer ?

[EEVblog]

I already own a Rigol 1054Z which has been adequate for messing around with micro-controllers and vintage computer repairs and catching transients.
*snip*
b) which of the scopes should I get rid of and which one to keep?
c) should I simply stick to and be content with what I have?

I missed that you already have a 1054Z. The MSO5000 is a decent step up, but you wouldn't want both, so I'd sell the 1054Z if you upgraded. What is the local ebay market like?

[balnazzar]

I can't believe all this cluster**ck started because I didn't like that the 1104x-e couldn't zoom out... 

[thm_w]

OP already has the FY6900 (50MHz +/- 10V?). So the capabilities of the generator in the MSO5000 may be irrelevant. Unless there was a plan to heavily script the scope to run tests requiring >2.5V.

OP seems to want is bandwidth, which they'd get (~400MHz).
Sell all the analog scopes, if you can get a decent price for them, if not keep them or give to someone else.
Sell the 1054Z (Ebay has it going for $200-300). Then the final upgrade cost for the 5000 will be more reasonable (<$500?).

Is $500 spent for 2yr+ use overkill? Its up to you to decide.

[tautech]

I can't believe all this cluster**ck started because I didn't like that the 1104x-e couldn't zoom out... 

It can in Zoom mode. It may be news to you but several manufacturers use this same design choice.

[rf-loop]

I can't believe all this cluster**ck started because I didn't like that the 1104x-e couldn't zoom out... 

Of course it can.

DIY courtain mod idea is always possible, also with SDS1xxxX-E 
If really do not like to see whole capture and need emulate full screen zoom in mode used in some scopes⁽¹⁾, as is/was also in old  Siglent SDS1000CNL/CML.
( ⁽¹⁾scopes what use this full screen "zoomed in" mode as normal... for make then possible  to "zoom out" when acquisition stopped)

[EEVblog]

Ok, PLEASE STOP discussing the zoom out issue in this thread, if anyone does it any more I will delete the post.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oscilloscope-zoom-out-quirk/msg4473289/#msg4473289

FYI, I have tried it on the SDS5000X and it DOES zoom out but only in fixed memory depth mode. Discuss ONLY in the thead linked please.

[tv84]

Zooming out of OT:

My opinion is that a MSO5000 is not "overkill" if you are going to use it! That's the main issue. As nico says, a hobby should bring you good memories and not be a nightmare. If every time you turn it on you'll remember the OLED TV that you didn't bought, then...

For me it was definitely OVERKILL because it has been kept in the box for the last 2 or 3 years!!