Author Topic: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?  (Read 58054 times)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #375 on: November 23, 2022, 07:09:49 pm »
If I press 'STOP' on a Siglent then I only have what's on screen in that instant, there's nothing to left or right.

And then ?
Use a larger timebase, then use the zoom function and see

Yes, we all work at large timebases when we use oscilloscopes.

Not.
 

Offline bingo600

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #376 on: November 23, 2022, 07:23:17 pm »

Secondly, the logic analyzer probe seems to be a passive rather than active probe. How does that affect performance?
There is an alternative available on eBay. Anyone have experience of either version from the same seller shown here?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224808600466
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225024212937

Watch out for that "Compatible" Siglent adapter.
It seems like the seller did a "China redesign" on the design.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/msg3903845/#msg3903845

It's a 2 layer PCB , and OZ2CPU (who made the Original PCB), says it won't preserve the signal integrity , if not 4 layer.

/Bingo
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 07:31:21 pm by bingo600 »
 
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Offline WaveyDipoleTopic starter

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #377 on: November 23, 2022, 08:24:28 pm »

Secondly, the logic analyzer probe seems to be a passive rather than active probe. How does that affect performance?
There is an alternative available on eBay. Anyone have experience of either version from the same seller shown here?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224808600466
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225024212937

Watch out for that "Compatible" Siglent adapter.
It seems like the seller did a "China redesign" on the design.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/msg3903845/#msg3903845

It's a 2 layer PCB , and OZ2CPU (who made the Original PCB), says it won't preserve the signal integrity , if not 4 layer.

/Bingo

Hmmm, thanks for spotting that. The thread also makes the point that the re-design does not give credit to the original designer. They are just selling an inferior copy. I won't be buying that then.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 08:53:24 pm by WaveyDipole »
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #378 on: November 23, 2022, 08:29:42 pm »
This clearly shows zooming in and out although I didn't notice any horizontal scrolling :



Is left/right scrolling the same as 'horizontal vernier'?

Horizontal position is separate button.
There is a function some scopes have is that you can have fine tuning of horizontally displayed timebase. So your scope shows 11uS/div or 13 ms/div not only standard 1-2-5-10-20-50-100-200-500 steps... I believe that would be vernier..
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 08:37:33 pm by 2N3055 »
 

Offline WaveyDipoleTopic starter

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #379 on: November 23, 2022, 08:39:23 pm »
If I press 'STOP' on a Siglent then I only have what's on screen in that instant, there's nothing to left or right.

And then ?
Use a larger timebase, then use the zoom function and see- If YOU would have a siglent.

That's exactly what Dave does in the video to work around the problem, but he also compares several oscilloscopes and only the Siglent seems to behave this way. Others that don't support auto memory depth do at least allow the user to manually change it. The Siglent seems to be the only one that doesn't? However, Dave's video was posted 2 years ago, so maybe this has since been addressed by Siglent? Or is it still the same in the latest firmware?

Horizontal position is separate button.
There is a function some scopes have is that you can have fine tuning of horizontally displayed timebase. So your scope shows 11uS/div or 13 ms/div not only standard 1-2-5-10-20-50-100-200-500 steps... I believe that would be vernier..

Thanks for clarifying that. Similar to having the timebase set off the CAL position on an analogue scope then. I think it was mentioned in one of the videos that not many digital scopes do that, so perhaps its a high end feature?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 08:52:08 pm by WaveyDipole »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #380 on: November 23, 2022, 09:17:02 pm »

Secondly, the logic analyzer probe seems to be a passive rather than active probe. How does that affect performance?
There is an alternative available on eBay. Anyone have experience of either version from the same seller shown here?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224808600466
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225024212937

Watch out for that "Compatible" Siglent adapter.
It seems like the seller did a "China redesign" on the design.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/msg3903845/#msg3903845

It's a 2 layer PCB , and OZ2CPU (who made the Original PCB), says it won't preserve the signal integrity , if not 4 layer.

/Bingo
It's used by LeCroy, Tek, Rigol and Siglent and the current promotional price is probably the best price you'll ever find them.
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Offline tautech

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #381 on: November 23, 2022, 09:20:04 pm »
If I press 'STOP' on a Siglent then I only have what's on screen in that instant, there's nothing to left or right.

And then ?
Use a larger timebase, then use the zoom function and see- If YOU would have a siglent.

That's exactly what Dave does in the video to work around the problem, but he also compares several oscilloscopes and only the Siglent seems to behave this way.
Seems is correct but fact is LeCroy and IIRC Pico work this way too.
It's a design decision and decades old in some products.
No disadvantage, you just use the scope slightly differently.
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Offline Martin72

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #382 on: November 23, 2022, 09:38:43 pm »
That's exactly what Dave does in the video to work around the problem, but he also compares several oscilloscopes and only the Siglent seems to behave this way. Others that don't support auto memory depth do at least allow the user to manually change it. The Siglent seems to be the only one that doesn't? However, Dave's video was posted 2 years ago, so maybe this has since been addressed by Siglent? Or is it still the same in the latest firmware?

No because it is not bug or problem.
On the 2k HD, the 5000X and 6000A you can set the memory manually but not to make some people happy, it will be used for the digital filter functions these scopes got.
BTW, on my former rigol mso you can set the memory manually at the highest value at any timebase.
But the default setting is auto for good reasons.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 10:08:24 pm by Martin72 »
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Offline WaveyDipoleTopic starter

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #383 on: November 23, 2022, 09:54:40 pm »
I found a further follow-up video by Dave on the subject here:



In it he explains why the Siglent behaves they way it does and also mentions the relationship between LeCroy and Siglent. It is no surprise then, that their design philosophy is very similar. I can't speak to the Pico, but since this is a USB scope and data capture happens in PC memory, the design architecture is bound to be different. Maybe somone with a Picoi can confirm this and draw a comparison?

Dave did test this issue on several other brands of scope including Rigol, Keysight, Tektronix, Unit-T and GwInstek. Whether it is considered different way of working, a bug or an unusual design decision, I guess at the end of the day the buyer will have to decide whether they want to work the Siglent/LeCroy way. I won't know until I try, but 1200GBP is a lot of money to buy and try and then find one doesn't like, although I agree that the promotional prices is a good deal at the moment and I probably don't have long to make my mind up.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 09:59:00 pm by WaveyDipole »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #384 on: November 23, 2022, 10:07:59 pm »
WD, it's a design decision for a good # or reasons and using Zoom and zooming out can exceed scopes that capture outside the display. Some early and current Siglents still work this way but without deep memory there are limits to how much you can zoom out. Pro's and cons whichever way you look at this and neither capture philosophy is right or wrong, just different.

Crippling it certainly is not !
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Offline egonotto

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #385 on: November 24, 2022, 12:24:05 am »
...
Maybe somone with a Picoi can confirm this and draw a comparison?



Hello,

in PicoScope you can not zoom out.

Best regards
egonotto
 
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Offline WaveyDipoleTopic starter

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #386 on: November 24, 2022, 09:06:52 am »
WD, it's a design decision for a good # or reasons and using Zoom and zooming out can exceed scopes that capture outside the display. Some early and current Siglents still work this way but without deep memory there are limits to how much you can zoom out. Pro's and cons whichever way you look at this and neither capture philosophy is right or wrong, just different.

Crippling it certainly is not !

Well 'crippling' was Dave's description and the video was made two years ago. I am just looking for an update on and clarification of the facts which I now appear to have received. Many thanks.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 09:09:45 am by WaveyDipole »
 

Offline markone

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #387 on: November 24, 2022, 10:30:01 am »
I found a further follow-up video by Dave on the subject here:



In it he explains why the Siglent behaves they way it does and also mentions the relationship between LeCroy and Siglent. It is no surprise then, that their design philosophy is very similar. I can't speak to the Pico, but since this is a USB scope and data capture happens in PC memory, the design architecture is bound to be different. Maybe somone with a Picoi can confirm this and draw a comparison?

Dave did test this issue on several other brands of scope including Rigol, Keysight, Tektronix, Unit-T and GwInstek. Whether it is considered different way of working, a bug or an unusual design decision, I guess at the end of the day the buyer will have to decide whether they want to work the Siglent/LeCroy way. I won't know until I try, but 1200GBP is a lot of money to buy and try and then find one doesn't like, although I agree that the promotional prices is a good deal at the moment and I probably don't have long to make my mind up.

Just saw this video, i was not aware of this "detail", this thing could kill my current purchase plan for SDS2104x Plus + LA probes at sale price, because i'm a guy that does make use of "zoom out" feature a lot, especially with LA acquisition and if I think to the way i use the single shot operation i can see a huge show stopper.

As Dave i do not see a reason why not include a memory management mode automatic switch based on history ON/OFF setting, i also struggle to see it as design decision, i would say instead a "simplification" of the SW module that manages acquisition memory, otherwise we should think at an HW architecture limitation (do not think it's the case).

I use in regular basis an MSO5000 at a customer lab (not hacked), the things i'm not happy about are mainly UI odd organization, overall laggy feeling and dull screen, while memory management is in line with my need and the sample rate is nicely high.

To put i simple, with Rigol if you set the memory in auto mode you get the Siglent behavior seen in Dave's video, otherwise you are able to select what you want ... i rarely use auto settings.

This "discovery" put me back to the point to find an alternative to MSO5000, unless Siglent decide to implement the memory mode "switch" (if i well understood from the discussion it is present in HD models) or i decide that this kind of limitation is worth the superior screen size, the better menu organization, the fast UI operation and quieter analog inputs.

Of course a FW upgrade with the desired feature implemented would solve my indecision with an instant Siglent purchase (subliminal message to Siglent marketing  :D).
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #388 on: November 24, 2022, 12:43:57 pm »
Like I said before I really hate this "Zoom out "debate.

First thing wrong is choice of terms.

Few people chose to use term "zoom out" for using a manual memory capture mode and forced it upon us. That is not only wrong and unfortunate but is confusing because it has nothing to do with the actual Zoom mode most scopes have.

To add to confusion, this "zoom out" means different things to different people :
- 1.  You put scope into manual memory mode so it captures fixed amount of time every time (say 10ms) regardless of time base setting. That way you can set timebase knob to 100ns/div but on trigger scope actually captures 10ms every time. Then if you stop, you have 10ms captured always, regardless what you see on the screen. Then you can use timebase knob to change "timebase" on stopped capture and move left and right with horizontal knob. This works deterministically as long as sample rate doesn't change, you don't change numbers of channels etc. And your triggering rate will be very low. This works well for long sparsely repeating sequences with large memory allocated.
- 2. Keysight Megazoom scopes have a feature that they capture same as Siglent (auto mode, only screen length) but when you press stop, they trigger of another trigger and then keep sampling full memory. That final sample after you pressed Stop will have more data than on screen if timebase is set to some fast settings (for instance you are at 100ns/div, scope will actually capture 100us of data). Then you can use timebase knob to change "timebase" on stopped capture and move left and right with horizontal knob. Make note that except for that final additional capture, Megazoom scopes don't capture anything outside   scope screen while continuously triggering.  So, for instance, if your signal makes a burst and stops, you press Stop, there will be nothing outside screen.

None of that is using Zoom function.

Siglent, Picoscope, LeCroy, uses different paradigm (similar to what a CRT scope does) where data captured is length of the screen. It doesn't mean it uses screen pixels, but that a time length captured always is same as screen width timewise (time/div*N of horizontal division). So, as you would with a CRT scope, you need to fit all the data you want to see on a screen. That makes it hard to see detail though. And that is why there is actual Zoom mode. You press Zoom and now you have dual timebase and position on a screen: one smaller full signal, and one magnified portion with separate timebase that you can position horizontally anywhere you like in larger buffer.

It is obviously different way of dealing with things. I find it logical and easy to use. I can see it only being a problem on scopes with small screens or if you want to cram all 20 channels 4 math channels, 4 reference channels and 4 decodes + tables on the screen at the same time. Which will be crowded anyways.

Some people don't like it for whatever reason. They insist this is wrong and a bug and retarded or whatnot. It is not. It is different of what they like and they should not buy it if it doesn't work for them. There are many of us who find it perfectly usable and more logical. Go figure, we all are different...

But with this bullying campaign, i feel like a lefty being forced to write with a right hand. There is nothing wrong with either way, you just learn how to use it. And to add, I have several scopes from all of the 3 groups and they all work fine. I simply learned to use them as they are meant to be used.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #389 on: November 24, 2022, 01:00:20 pm »
Like I said before I really hate this "Zoom out "debate.

Why? Because you're not winning?

First thing wrong is choice of terms.

Maybe not technically correct but everybody else seems to understand what's being discussed.
 

Offline markone

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #390 on: November 24, 2022, 01:11:06 pm »
Like I said before I really hate this "Zoom out "debate.

-snip

Some people don't like it for whatever reason. They insist this is wrong and a bug and retarded or whatnot. It is not. It is different of what they like and they should not buy it if it doesn't work for them. There are many of us who find it perfectly usable and more logical. Go figure, we all are different...

But with this bullying campaign, i feel like a lefty being forced to write with a right hand. There is nothing wrong with either way, you just learn how to use it. And to add, I have several scopes from all of the 3 groups and they all work fine. I simply learned to use them as they are meant to be used.

Let's put things in this way : Dave's video show the facts plain & simple, the scope works always in history mode, regardless the menu setting and dedicated button, there is now way to prove that this is a wise design decision which leads to some benefits because other brands offer this mode PLUS "zoom out" feature (i know, wrong term but gives the idea instantly) that it comes in handy in a lot of situations.

It would be more coherent to remove history menu ON/OFF setting, otherwise it smell like an unfinished work.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #391 on: November 24, 2022, 01:24:41 pm »
Quote
Why? Because you're not winning?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=EdDQOVpIpQA&feature=share
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Online nctnico

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #392 on: November 24, 2022, 01:28:58 pm »
But with this bullying campaign, i feel like a lefty being forced to write with a right hand. There is nothing wrong with either way, you just learn how to use it.
I hope you see the contradiction in your own sentence. It is you who has been doing to bullying here by trying to take away a feature that many people here find useful. On the contrary nobody ever has been suggesting to remove the auto memory length setting from a DSO. Nobody is taking anything away from the way you like to work. So I don't get why you would even feel people are forcing you to write with a different hand. That is only in your imagination so please do a reality check here. Heck, I don't think anyone (besides the people with a financial interest in Siglent) has ever tried so hard to downplay a feature in a piece of test equipment as you have where it comes to 'zooming out'. Really, the problem is at your end.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 01:35:58 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #393 on: November 24, 2022, 01:48:17 pm »
But with this bullying campaign, i feel like a lefty being forced to write with a right hand. There is nothing wrong with either way, you just learn how to use it.
I hope you see the contradiction in your own sentence. It is you who has been doing to bullying here by trying to take away a feature that many people here find useful. On the contrary nobody ever has been suggesting to remove the auto memory length setting from a DSO. So I don't get why you would even feel people are forcing you to write with a different hand. That is only in your imagination so please do a reality check here. Heck, I don't think anyone (besides the people with a financial interest in Siglent) has ever tried so hard to downplay a feature in a piece of test equipment as you have where it comes to 'zooming out'. Really, the problem is at your end.

You have trouble with distorted reality. Anybody that doesn't agree with you 100% is your enemy. It is called paranoia...

It is you who DID say all of us that don't agree with you are wrong, stupid, shills, Siglent trolls (despite repeated explanation that it is not only Siglent that has this strategy), that people are stupid to buy any scope that cannot capture with manual memory etc etc... It is you who wants all of us to behave the way you
like us to be. You are telling me I'm all this bad stuff because I said that all of this purported problems you claim are not an issue for me.

I never ever said manual memory mode should be forbidden. I never said you should stop doing what you do.

I DID say that it is different, explained many times exactly how it works and that if you use Zoom mode it is not a problem.

I have been using scopes with this "WSIWYG" memory mode (lets call it that for purpose of this discussion) for 20 years and never found it wanting. I simply adjusted my work appropriately. Not being able to "zoom out" never, ever, in 20+ years was a problem to me. Years before I even heard of Siglent..
It is not Siglent related at all. It applies to several other brands.

My stance is inclusionary, I say 10 types of brands all work fine. Your stance is exclusionary , you say these 3-4 types of scopes are not worth buying based on this single architectural difference. It is you who wants to forbid people to use Picoscope, LeCroy, Siglent or any other scope that has similar architecture because you don't want to accept it is different and you need to learn different ways.

So yeah, it's not me...
 

Offline markone

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #394 on: November 24, 2022, 02:11:20 pm »

-snip

I DID say that it is different, explained many times exactly how it works and that if you use Zoom mode it is not a problem.

-snip

Not true, zoom takes place on the screen and requires additional computation, I would understand if applied to one or max two traces, over this configuration becomes really ugly, especially with LA engaged.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #395 on: November 24, 2022, 02:13:53 pm »
Like I said before I really hate this "Zoom out "debate.

Why? Because you're not winning?

First thing wrong is choice of terms.

Maybe not technically correct but everybody else seems to understand what's being discussed.

I thought it was about truth and helping people find the right choice for their hard earned money.
Now I see it is a personal vendetta on your side. Oh well, good luck with that...  Winning, LOL.. kindergarten stuff, my God...

Technically correct is the right type of correct. This is electronics, only technically correct is important. If you want to do philosophy or argue law interpretations, I'm sure there are better places for these topics.

And no, not everybody understands it, actually everyday I see people asking confused questions about it. And it seems to me that you personally like that everything is very mudded so you can "win", because facts are not on your side. And like I said, good luck with that.

I have quite a body of knowledge and experience on oscilloscopes. Which I demonstrate daily. I have 7 scopes of which only 2 are Siglent. I have Keysight 3000T, 3 different Picoscope and a Micsig STO1004. I had Rigol 1074Z (no I didn't hack it) which I sold. I write about that, from my experience.

That is all.
And in this last post of mine I did not "attack" "people that zoom out". I wanted to explain the topic because there are different thing different people are pushing under same name..
But you are stalker and you "can't let me win"..

Lol..
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #396 on: November 24, 2022, 02:21:05 pm »

-snip

I DID say that it is different, explained many times exactly how it works and that if you use Zoom mode it is not a problem.

-snip

Not true, zoom takes place on the screen and requires additional computation, I would understand if applied to one or max two traces, over this configuration becomes really ugly, especially with LA engaged.

That is wrong. On all current Siglent scopes (we are discussing those right?) it hardware accelerated and happens in hardware.
As I said, it does get busy. No question there.

And you don't have to use zoom mode at all. You can capture 100ms (on 10ms/div), stop and then use timebase and horizontal same way as on those "other type" scopes. Difference is only how you make initial capture.

Our user Nico does this thing where he needs to look at certain shorter portion of signal all the time while still capturing lots of it and also having very bussy screen. For him in that case, there is no replacement for a scope that can manually set memory. He is right about that.
But I personally never used scope like that, for that particular job I would use different workflow. But for him it is right choice.

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #397 on: November 24, 2022, 02:24:33 pm »
Difference is only how you make initial capture.

Finally you admit the problem.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #398 on: November 24, 2022, 02:39:04 pm »
Difference is only how you make initial capture.

Finally you admit the problem.

No I have been saying it all the time.. You just kept saying I was wrong without comprehension.

In fact is it you finally confirming what I was saying all the time that after you capture signal differently it same and both types of scopes behave the same?
 

Offline markone

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Re: Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?
« Reply #399 on: November 24, 2022, 02:48:37 pm »

That is wrong. On all current Siglent scopes (we are discussing those right?) it hardware accelerated and happens in hardware.
As I said, it does get busy. No question there.

In hardware does not mean zero time, but even supposing so it remains the problem of screen space occupation.

And you don't have to use zoom mode at all. You can capture 100ms (on 10ms/div), stop and then use timebase and horizontal same way as on those "other type" scopes. Difference is only how you make initial capture.

Here we are : if I capture 10 times (or more) the optimal horizontal scale to eye watch waveform's detail I lose visibility of the details which lead to the need to stop at right moment.

I do often this kind of verification on the field, i stop manually when i spot something odd on the waveform that has to be represented on the screen with the proper horizontal scale, not compressed like it happens when i set time scale 10 times more (ie).

That's the crucial point, sure not mandatory for everyone, but essential to know before buying.
 


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