HP/Agilent/Keysomehing 1670G Logic Analyzer (pics added)

[BloodyCactus]

Just grabbed this sweet thing off ebay for a good deal. Full options/memory/pattern generator, 136 channels. Now I just need to learn how to use it properly Its nice I can use 'half' mode giving 64 channels at 4M/500mhz. That will help debug the Z80 bus on my homebrew z80 computer.

The triggering/state mechanism is pretty awesome (and complex!)

Its all torx screws so I dont have 'lets go look inside' pictures yet, but I'd like to replace its I scsi hd with a scsi-to-cf card and image the hpux drive if I can.



I started to get into the insides but its really hairy in there, lots of cables and such that it scared me into being able to put it back together correctly!

[free_electron]

do NOT mess with the drive ! leave it be.
the firmware i stored in flash and those drives are IDE if i recall right. this machine does not run HPux
if you install a new drive it needs formatting ( there is a menu for that ) but the machine cant deal with drives larger than 32 gbyte.

[BloodyCactus]

do NOT mess with the drive ! leave it be.
the firmware i stored in flash and those drives are IDE if i recall right. this machine does not run HPux
if you install a new drive it needs formatting ( there is a menu for that ) but the machine cant deal with drives larger than 32 gbyte.

are you sure? it has telnet, ftp, nfs mounts, xwindows, x11 protocol.
same ftp server as whats the bigger 16500 hp logic analyzers and they run hp-ux I believe.

its a quite capable system whatever it is running. if I can find my torx I'll try and get inside to take a look.

[BloodyCactus]

well inside is a tiny 5gb 2.5" IBM travelstar ide drive, I really need to image that and make a copy to be safe.

[DIPLover]

I have one of those, (as well as an older 1663C 34 channel HP with the B/W CRT).

They are great instruments and work very well. The 1670G is VERY loud (53dB(a) SPL @ 1m!), the older 1663C much less so (around 40dB).

The hard drive is definitely a laptop IDE. I had bought a 40GB New-old Travelstar on eBay as a spare just in case, sorry to hear about the 32GB limitation.

The processing system on these is the same as the 1660 series and is based on a 68EC020 processor.

I don't think they run full UNIX, as they have very little RAM (8MB on 1670G, 4MB on 1663C).

There is a Telnet interface to the 1670G, but it is not a full telnet and does not give you access to a shell. You connect to a "command interpreter" socket on port 5025 and enter GPIB style commands directly.

It works quite well and I think it's awesome to develop and debug control programs.

[DIPLover]

Just wanted to add that these boot from FLASH, and use the hard disk as a data drive only

They boot and work fine without the hard disk, in which case you have to save to a floppy if you want to keep your settings.

On bootup, the 1670G says copyright 1999, but the 1663C is copyright 1992 and its almost the same software (2 versions later).

The 1670G is really the last of that great line from the early 90s before Windows everywhere and viruses on University lab equipment...

[BloodyCactus]

thanks for the info, I poked around on the weekend with the telnet entering commands, quite nice for scripting without using the GPIB! Also good to know that it does not boot from the hd.

When you ftp in, it must mount its flash onto the hd as /system/disk/hard/ I found the executables? for the modules (analyzer, pattern generate, symbols, testing, etc).

very good to know the hd is not critical to using it.

it annoys me it boots into default mode, so I have to go in and turn the damn beep off every time I boot etc. (Quicker than trying to navigate and load settings)

[DIPLover]

Some pics with both Analyzers on top of each other.  It's obviously the same LA with minor cosmetic changes (goodbye HP brown...).

 The LCD even has a an uneven black mask around it because it's a bit smaller than the CRT tube (although the displayed image is VERY close in size).

I think anyone who has the bench space and needs a Logic Analyzer should seriously consider these older models. 250MHz Timing analysis on all channels (500MHz on half) is light-years ahead of the Saleae-type LA (which are more expensive now).

Also, 150MHz (1670G) or 100MHz (1660) State analysis on all channels is excellent and is the ticket to anybody building a retro-computer. Saleae types just DON'T do synchroneous (State) analysis...

[DIPLover]

it annoys me it boots into default mode, so I have to go in and turn the damn beep off every time I boot etc. (Quicker than trying to navigate and load settings)

It's very easy to auto-load settings of your choice. Every time I save a setup I do the extra 2 steps to put it as the auto-load file because it saves me so much time the next day...

Just go to "System->Hard Disk->Autoload" and select your stored ".A" file and click Execute.

Also, a PS/2 mouse is your friend even though the scroll wheel works in reverse and other oddities...

[BloodyCactus]

It's very easy to auto-load settings of your choice. Every time I save a setup I do the extra 2 steps to put it as the auto-load file because it saves me so much time the next day...

Just go to "System->Hard Disk->Autoload" and select your stored ".A" file and click Execute.

Also, a PS/2 mouse is your friend even though the scroll wheel works in reverse and other oddities...

awesome! thanks for the tips.

[nadona]

Just grabbed this sweet thing off ebay for a good deal. Full options/memory/pattern generator, 136 channels. Now I just need to learn how to use it properly Its nice I can use 'half' mode giving 64 channels at 4M/500mhz. That will help debug the Z80 bus on my homebrew z80 computer.

The triggering/state mechanism is pretty awesome (and complex!)

Its all torx screws so I dont have 'lets go look inside' pictures yet, but I'd like to replace its I scsi hd with a scsi-to-cf card and image the hpux drive if I can.



I started to get into the insides but its really hairy in there, lots of cables and such that it scared me into being able to put it back together correctly!

Congratulations on your new 1670g. It looks real good!

I bought a 16702B and have a couple of modules in it. I'd like to debug z80, 8085, and 6809 with it but couldn't figure it out how. Maybe I need more software and slow modules, I don't know.

If 1670g can debug z80, I will have to switch to it

[DIPLover]

1660/1670 series cannot "debug" Z80 or any other CPU by themselves out of the box.

There is a Symbol Utility included which you can use to map certain values to Mnemonics or other labels, but that's it.

There were however "preprocessors" or "analysis probes" you could buy that would let you do real-time disassembly using the scope, but you needed a specific one for every CPU family and they seem very rare for these models.

What I presume the OP was referring to was debugging his Z80 SYSTEM, i.e. Watching address and data buses in and out of CPU and memory as well as control signals. I do the same with my 68008 project.

Logic Analyzers were developed mostly to debug the mini-computers of the 1970s, built out of TTLs on multiple boards. They were still very well adapted to the microcomputers of the 80s and early 90s, but increased integration has reduced visibility tremendously.

Nobody makes original computers anymore, and for the multigigahertz, ultra-integrated systems of today, you need extremely specialized setups.

Even at the low end, microcontrollers don't need 136 channels...

As a general purpose instrument they are much less useful now sadly

[nadona]

1660/1670 series cannot "debug" Z80 or any other CPU by themselves out of the box.

There is a Symbol Utility included which you can use to map certain values to Mnemonics or other labels, but that's it.

There were however "preprocessors" or "analysis probes" you could buy that would let you do real-time disassembly using the scope, but you needed a specific one for every CPU family and they seem very rare for these models.

What I presume the OP was referring to was debugging his Z80 SYSTEM, i.e. Watching address and data buses in and out of CPU and memory as well as control signals. I do the same with my 68008 project.

Logic Analyzers were developed mostly to debug the mini-computers of the 1970s, built out of TTLs on multiple boards. They were still very well adapted to the microcomputers of the 80s and early 90s, but increased integration has reduced visibility tremendously.

Nobody makes original computers anymore, and for the multigigahertz, ultra-integrated systems of today, you need extremely specialized setups.

Even at the low end, microcontrollers don't need 136 channels...

As a general purpose instrument they are much less useful now sadly

Yes, I totally agree with this.

Thank you for the preprocessor information. I checked the items on eBay and they were no record of sale. So it should be pretty rare.

Maybe, old Tektronix analyzer.

[BloodyCactus]

Im working on building a z80 homebrew computer, using eurocard DIN connectors with 96pin for the bus, I have a PIC doing MMU duty to create a 24bit 16mb address space so the z80 can page stuff in and out in 8kb chunks (2048 pages).

The 1670G is fine for it. Would have loved a 16072B but I picked up the 1670G for a super low price, all the 16702B's were still very expensive.

[DIPLover]

Thank you for the preprocessor information. I checked the items on eBay and they were no record of sale. So it should be pretty rare.

Maybe, old Tektronix analyzer.

You might have more luck with "analysis probe" as a search term (though it brings back BAD memories of early Southpark...).

Especially for the bigger LAs, there seems to be setups available for old IA32 at least.

[Lukas]

I don't think they run full UNIX, as they have very little RAM (8MB on 1670G, 4MB on 1663C).

HP had some kind of obscure embedded OS called HP-RT. I've seen some spectrum analyzers running it. Though, there are no signs in the 1670G's firmware of it running HP-RT.

[BloodyCactus]

I think its a unix of some kind-ish. Contains Sun + BSD copyrights. "/tmp/.X11-unix/X" is a bit of a give away too, looking for the X11 display/screen, there are references to nfs rpc, portmap, snmp, the whole tcp stack, udp etc.

the fileformat is some kind of executable Rocky Mountain BASIC. HFSILF stuff. WS_FILE

there is a strange spanish message in it

1 momento ninos! estoy el diablo!

which I think is something like "one moment children, I am the devil!"

the pattern generator has an "Ouch that hurts!!  Dont do that" message.

Lots of references to 16554/6A etc as well as the 16500 series, I assume it shares the software with it.

There is a memory map file on there presenting itself as the 16500..

all strange stuff..

Address offsets for 16500 software modules
__Code__  __Data__  __Slot_Name__
00000000  00000000  16500 SYSTEM
001eb854  001ead88  16500 OPTION 1
00000000  00000000  16500 OPTION 2
00000000  00000000  16500 INTERMODULE
00000000  fffe9cac  16500 SLOT A
00000000  000c9454  16500 SLOT B
00000000  00000000  16500 SLOT C
00000000  00000000  16500 SLOT D
00000000  00000000  16500 SLOT E
00000000  00000000  16500 SLOT F
00000000  00000000  16500 SLOT G
00000000  00000000  16500 SLOT H
00000000  00000000  16500 SLOT I
00000000  00000000  16500 SLOT J

I wonder if the software from the 7x can be put on the 6x, based on the info in the symbol binary.
"166X/167X Symbol Reader   V03.00"

at any rate...

[DIPLover]

I wonder if the software from the 7x can be put on the 6x, based on the info in the symbol binary.
"166X/167X Symbol Reader   V03.00"

at any rate...

It's possible, seeing as though it uses Flash memory and has options to update it easily.
But I wouldn't risk it. Especially since my 1663C doesn't have ethernet, there would be little gain.

With only RS232 and GPIB interfaces, I'll have to poke around a bit and see what is exposed so I can compare with the 1670.

Also, about running Unix, a 32bit 68020 with 4MB-8MB RAM is after all Sun3 class hardware (missing an MMU)... not so bad!

It could certainly run a cut-down BSD4.3 derivative of some sort.

[DIPLover]

Some info about the 16500B/C series connection...

I happen to have the Operating System Floppies for the 1663C. (Should probably image that very soon...must be approaching Flash memory retention times by now.)

I also have the Symbol Utility floppy, since it was optional on those older models.

Well I decided to put them in and see what was on them...

It appears 166XC and 167XA shared a 128KB ROM image.
There is also a ~256KB "System Software" image with no mention of 1670. I don't know what is in that image.

According to previous posts on Yahoo groups from people who replaced the hard drive :
"The 1660C will boot from ROM without a hard drive and be functional, but the PV tests are not available in ROM."

PV refers to Performance Verification, for which there is a third floppy in the OS package.

Had to remember how to photograph a CRT... (Shutter speed 1/20s does it!)

Symbol Reader Utility disk contains executables for 16500C and B models as well as 1660C and 1670A.

They are all named "Option 32"

[BloodyCactus]

does the print button not create a screenshot?

I wonder if the 167xG disks are around :/

I went into ftp, logged in as control

cd /system/disk/hard/system

Code: [Select]

200 Remote Directory changed to "/system/disk/hard/system".
ftp> dir
200 PORT command ok.
150 Opening data connection for  (192.168.0.100,60327).
-rw-rw-rw-    1    1    1     20494  lg165.bdf
-rw-rw-rw-    1    1    1      1116  readme
-rw-rw-rw-    1    1    1    131328  rom
-rw-rw-rw-    1    1    1     19595  sm165.bdf
-rw-rw-rw-    1    1    1    654848  system.lan
-rw-rw-rw-    1    1    1    245248  sys_014
-rw-rw-rw-    1    1    1    193792  sys_025
-rw-rw-rw-    1    1    1    706560  sys_034
-rw-rw-rw-    1    1    1    300288  pvtest_
-rw-rw-rw-    1    1    1    118272  pv_014
-rw-rw-rw-    1    1    1     27136  pv_025
-rw-rw-rw-    1    1    1    359424  pv_034
-rw-rw-rw-    1    1    1    212736  optc_032
drwxrwxrwx    1    1    1      1024  messages
drwxrwxrwx    1    1    1      1024  objects
drwxrwxrwx    1    1    1      1024  tmp_025
-rw-rw-rw-    1    1    1       548  system.map
226 Transfer complete.
ftp>
and there are the files, now I dont know when it runs the symbol util if it fires it from disk here or flash or what, but you could probably drop the new symbol on it and see if it runs and change it back. rename the current one, drop in the new, rename it back if it does not work.

I believe, 014 - oscilloscope, 025 - pattern gen, 034 - deep la, the PV_ files are the test files

rom contains

"V4.1 COPYRIGHT 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986 SOF
TWARE COMPONENTS GROUP, INC. A"

and a Motorola 1981 copyright for some floating point stuff..

[DIPLover]

The print button prints to the centronics printer...

I wanted to know exactly WHAT went into ROM so I decided to be reckless and use geriatric floppies to rewrite a geriatric flash chip... 

It actually went like a charm!  (Don't do it, it was stupid.)

So after having the same idea you got and checking that required files where present under SYSTEM on the 1670G, I reflashed the ROM on it too.

Both LAs now work just fine and dandy (at least all power-up AND performance tests still pass) from freshly written flash ROMs.

As you'll see in screenshots (LITERAL screenshots lol),
ROM, SYSTEM, SYS_O32/SYS_O34 all get written to flash.

Also, the flash utility says Copyright 1992 when it starts on the 1670G (built in 2001).
If it's not broken...

[helius]

"V4.1 COPYRIGHT 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986 SOF
TWARE COMPONENTS GROUP, INC. A"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSOS_(real-time_operating_system)

[DIPLover]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSOS_(real-time_operating_system)

I think you nailed it!

Also, of course all this crazyness about reflashing could have been avoided simply by re-reading the "Theory of Operations" chapter in the Service Manual (Identical between the 2 models except for typos in the 1670g manual)

System Memory
The system memory is made up of both read-only memory (ROM) and random access memory (RAM). Two types of ROM are used. A single 128Kx8 EPROM is used as a boot ROM, and four 512Kx8 Flash ROMS are configured to provide a 512Kx32 Flash ROM space. One SIMM socket supports 2-MB, 4-MB, or 8-MB SIMM.

On power-up, instructions in the boot ROM command the instrument to execute its boot routine. The boot routine includes power-up operation verification of the instrument subsystems and entering the operating system. The CPU searches for the operating system on Flash ROM. Then, if the operating system is in Flash ROM, the instrument will be initialized with the default configuration and await front panel instructions from you. If the operating system is not in Flash ROM, the CPU accesses the disk drives to see if the operating system is on the disks.

The DRAM stores the instrument configuration, acquired data to be processed, and any inverse assembler loaded in the instrument by the user.

This boot arrangement allowed for "deluxe" systems (1663C, 1670x) that booted from flash, with hard drives and floppies as well as "entry-level" systems (166xA) with Flash ROMs and floppies only to the "rock-bottom" 1664A (no flash, floppy only, 50MHz state, no real-time clock!)
 

[BloodyCactus]

hmm I'm wondering about the lifespan on the NVRAM chip now.. if it should get replaced or something.

[free_electron]

the agilent ftp server has the latest system images for these things. 3 or four floppies.
code is statically compiled in these machines. nothing is loaded dynamically. (drivers and such are all statically linked )

the core OS is indeed the same as the 16500 series.
only the 16700 series ran HP/UX as they have a PA-RISC cpu at 150MHz as their host.
the 16505 prototype analyser is also a PA risc based machine running HP/UX. that one can communicate over SCSI to a 16500 and gives you a full blown x11 windowing system to visualize data. i believe the 16505 can also talk to these 167x series. ( not the 16700 series , those have their own x11 on board )

16500 / 167x ->psos
16700 ->hp/ux
1680 / 16900 -> XP / Win 7