HP54645D now- which Rigol next?

[reagle]

I've been getting by with my much loved HP54645D for a long time now, but the lack of deep memory is starting to get in the way. I am torn between basically three options-DS1202Z-E, DS2202A or HDO1102.
Of these I am the most familiar with DS2202A and it seems like by now they got the bugs out. Less certain on the other two, especially the shiny new HD model. My use case is general debug, maybe looking at buses like QSPI, some analog.  This is used for work, so ideally not too many showstopper bugs and just generally reliable hardware. I can see larger screen on HD may be helpful in some case, not convinced 12 bits does much for me. Thoughts/pointers what to compare?

[adam4521]

I’m thinking you might need to keep an HP/Agilent ‘fix’ as well as a modern scope. Do you have the digital probes? Have you considered trading your scope for the respected 54622D? More speed, more triggers, hi-res screen. And for the modern scope, are you sold on Rigol? Have you considered the Siglent, GW Instek, Micsig options? If you are probing buses, I’m curious why you shortlisted only two channel variants?

[reagle]

I’m thinking you might need to keep an HP/Agilent ‘fix’ as well as a modern scope. Do you have the digital probes? Have you considered trading your scope for the respected 54622D? More speed, more triggers, hi-res screen. And for the modern scope, are you sold on Rigol? Have you considered the Siglent, GW Instek, Micsig options? If you are probing buses, I’m curious why you shortlisted only two channel variants?

I do have the HP digital probes puck, but with modern tools like Saleae I don't think I've touched the digital channels on HP from early 2000   Just wondering - is there something that my HP still does better than modern scopes (besides playing invaders game on CRT that is)? I've used 54622D as well, but I think something more modern is in order.

Rigol consideration is mainly due to the fact I am the most familiar with them/their interfaces. Had DS2xxx series as a daily "driver" for years so that makes me look at their stuff. Heard of Siglent, never used them. 2-4 channels is mainly pricing. 4ch Rigol in HDO gets expensive, though I just discovered the MSO5074 as another option. That one is an interesting beast. Instek used to be pretty crappy last time I dealt with them. And of course lower end big names are just way too expensive. Which Siglent would you look at, 1104X-E?

[reagle]

Funny enough there was a similar thread in 2014 and consensus was  to keep HP. I bet things have changed a bit since then!

[Fungus]

I've been getting by with my much loved HP54645D for a long time now, but the lack of deep memory is starting to get in the way. I am torn between basically three options-DS1202Z-E, DS2202A or HDO1102.
Of these I am the most familiar with DS2202A and it seems like by now they got the bugs out. Less certain on the other two, especially the shiny new HD model. My use case is general debug, maybe looking at buses like QSPI, some analog.  This is used for work, so ideally not too many showstopper bugs and just generally reliable hardware. I can see larger screen on HD may be helpful in some case, not convinced 12 bits does much for me. Thoughts/pointers what to compare?

Why not the Rigol MSO5000?

It's in the same price range as the others but has higher bandwidth*, 4 channels for looking at buses plus MSO option if you ever need more digital channels.

(*) Assuming you're going to hack it.

[reagle]

Yea MSO5074 was not even on my horizon. That may be an interesting option. Even as is, with current deals you get most options for free. And it a gen2 platform compared to the DS1 and DS2 scopes.   

[Fungus]

Yea MSO5074 was not even on my horizon. That may be an interesting option. Even as is, with current deals you get most options for free.

The base model now has everything except the 350MHz bandwidth.

[reagle]

After some extensive forum reading, I am down to MSO5074, SDS1104X-E and still maybe HDO1102/4 .
With MSO5074, it appears bugs are mostly taken care of?
And as far as front end noise, is it usable if I say need to look at FPGA 1.1V power rail and check its ripple (5-10mV)?

[Fungus]

After some extensive forum reading, I am down to MSO5074, SDS1104X-E and still maybe HDO1102/4 .

For FPGA work I'd want the 350Mhz 'scope...

And as far as front end noise, is it usable if I say need to look at FPGA 1.1V power rail and check its ripple (5-10mV)?

This is the sort of raw noise level you can expect from an MSO5000:


5 to 10mV of ripple would be clearly visible even with that much noise.

Plus: Ripple will usually be periodic so you can turn on averaging mode and get a huge improvement. eg. This is a 2mV sine wave.



So... it's not ideal, but it's not the end of the world.

[reagle]

Thank you, that's very helpful! As far as stability of firmware, are they mostly done with major bugs? I see no recent firmware releases so either they are all set or they just gave up on fixing them

[Martin72]

Better count on the last..
But it doesn´t make the scope useless - Many are going upset about bugs (regardless if they will affect their needs or not), me I´ve never saw a totally flawless DSO.
Study the known and listed bugs and decicde for yourself, if these are "killers" for you or not.

[reagle]

I mean my HP had its last firmware in 1996, and somehow is stable without anything obviously wrong Well except for RTC clock battery in a chip soldered to the board that had to be replaced

[tv84]

I mean my HP had its last firmware in 1996, and somehow is stable without anything obviously wrong

Then the only thing we can be sure is that the Rigol FW is newer than your HP last FW...   

[nctnico]

Better count on the last..

Study the known and listed bugs and decicde for yourself, if these are "killers" for you or not.

And don't count on the bugs getting fixed any time soon! Buy something that works for you the moment you buy it.

To the OP: if you have the budget, don't overlook the R&S RTB2004. It has a much better polished & effective user interface; it is worth the extra money.

[mwb1100]

Yea MSO5074 was not even on my horizon. That may be an interesting option. Even as is, with current deals you get most options for free.

The base model now has everything except the 350MHz bandwidth.

Is Rigol including the 200M memory depth option now too?   I think you still need to hack - or pay $400 - to get that.

(the standard memory depth is an already hefty 100M)

[Fungus]

The base model now has everything except the 350MHz bandwidth.

Is Rigol including the 200M memory depth option now too?

Good point... no the memory isn't standard, you have to hack it to get that.

(nb. hacking is very easy and 100% reversible)

[2N3055]

After some extensive forum reading, I am down to MSO5074, SDS1104X-E and still maybe HDO1102/4 .

For FPGA work I'd want the 350Mhz 'scope...

And as far as front end noise, is it usable if I say need to look at FPGA 1.1V power rail and check its ripple (5-10mV)?

This is the sort of raw noise level you can expect from an MSO5000:


5 to 10mV of ripple would be clearly visible even with that much noise.

Plus: Ripple will usually be periodic so you can turn on averaging mode and get a huge improvement. eg. This is a 2mV sine wave.



So... it's not ideal, but it's not the end of the world.

FPGA power rail will not be periodic at all... Who told you that?
It will depend heavily on what FPGA is doing at the time, how PDN is designed in a first place and weird interactions between switcher PSU residues, regulation loop, PDN impedance and FPGA current consumption patterns.  Actually MSO5000 itself has a problem that you can hear PSU inside with sound modulated by what scopes digital chips are doing at the time...

And that amount of noise, which amounts to more than 25% of signal measured is not fine...

For this job he would be better of buying old DS2000A from Rigol or SDS1000X-E.
Those are both low noise, real 500uV/div designs.
DS2000A also has 50Ω input path and is 300MHz design. It is 2 ch only though..

There are better scopes for that work but more expensive so they do not come into comparison.

MSO5000 would be good for digital part though. It also has better long FFT (similar to SDS1000X-E)  than old DS2000A, you could use that to try to extract some info from data...It also have bigger screen.

Like it was said in MSO5000 "good enough" topic, in this price range it is about which tradeoff is acceptable to you.