Damn Tektronix TDS2000

[tszaboo]

I officially hate this piece of abomination guess-o-meters. Every single job I take, there is a TDS2000 series scope. No matter what. It's like every single company got deceit to actually give money for this. The lack of features is just amazing. Like, memory. And vertical scale (goes down to 20mV/div, that is like a very good resolution, customers will love it). They are still being sold. For money. In 2016. When was this coming to the market, 2002?

Now, I was testing a 10W isolated 140V output DC-DC converter. It is a bunch of those isolated 2W converters stacked on top of each other. Big letters on the front, 300V max. Big letters on the probe coming with the scope, 300V max. Ok, 140V<300V, power supply is isolated, it is driven by an Agilent power supply, that is isolated. It is safe to connect, right? And sure, you should measure the turn on transient of the supply you made? With a scope? That is 300V rated.

After a minute or so, boom, CH1 is gone.

I really hope Tek is going to a stupid bankruptcy and these TDS2000 series will stop working due to a stupid bug in the firmware. And I never have to use them again. Never.
Next time someone gives me a TDS2000 series to work with, I'm going to dump it into the sea.

[tautech]

We hear you, but be very aware the vast majority of scopes (DSO's & CRO's) do have only 300V rated channel inputs. 

100:1 or Differential probes are the only way to be safe. Get either or a 400V input rated scope.

[Wuerstchenhund]

I officially hate this piece of abomination guess-o-meters. Every single job I take, there is a TDS2000 series scope. No matter what. It's like every single company got deceit to actually give money for this. The lack of features is just amazing. Like, memory. And vertical scale (goes down to 20mV/div, that is like a very good resolution, customers will love it). They are still being sold. For money. In 2016. When was this coming to the market, 2002?

Yes, the TDS2000 is shit. It's pathetic that Tek is still offering something like that in 2016, but that's Danaher for you. And it's not that their other scopes are that much better, though.

Tek made by far the best scopes back in the analog days but their DSOs have always been pretty poor and pretty much only sold because of the brand name and their reputation. That is however now slowly wearing thin.

I don't know what you do work-wise but if you work as some kind of contractor then it might be worthwhile considering buying your own scope and taking it to the customer.

Now, I was testing a 10W isolated 140V output DC-DC converter. It is a bunch of those isolated 2W converters stacked on top of each other. Big letters on the front, 300V max. Big letters on the probe coming with the scope, 300V max. Ok, 140V<300V, power supply is isolated, it is driven by an Agilent power supply, that is isolated. It is safe to connect, right? And sure, you should measure the turn on transient of the supply you made? With a scope? That is 300V rated.

After a minute or so, boom, CH1 is gone.

What probe did you use? I personally wouldn't go onto a >100V source without a decent divider probe (10:1 at least, 100:1 is better, fixed not switchable), no matter what the scope rating is.

I really hope Tek is going to a stupid bankruptcy

Do't worry, they're working pretty hard on that. Their market share has been shrinking pretty much constantly, and still is. I buy a lot of test gear for various labs around the globe, and all of them are with other brands' gear. The only remaining spot for Tek seems to be the educational market, probably because the last time many Profs were working in the industry was back in the analog days and therefore they don't know much else.

and these TDS2000 series will stop working due to a stupid bug in the firmware. And I never have to use them again. Never. Next time someone gives me a TDS2000 series to work with, I'm going to dump it into the sea.

It depends on what you do but if possible then save yourself the anger of working with shit kit and get your own scope, and just take it with you to the jobs. Even if it's a second hand one, I mean pretty much anything is better than a TDS2000.

[tszaboo]

It depends on what you do but if possible then save yourself the anger of working with shit kit and get your own scope, and just take it with you to the jobs. Even if it's a second hand one, I mean pretty much anything is better than a TDS2000.

No, I'm working usually years at the same employer, and I refuse to spend a single cent on equipment they should provide. Why? Because I provide the brains, they provide the tools and the money. The only tools I'm comfortable taking to work stops at calculator+pens+mouse+headset, because any of those is usually bad or used or any combination of those. Even if I would have a nice scope home (which I dont have, priories elsewhere), I would not use that for work.
I'm an employee, not a contractor. I have used nice scopes, so yes, I'm aware about the difference. It's just there is always a TDS series, saving the day. The discussion most of the time:
"You know, I could measure this with a better scope." And then they are surprised, when after months of convincing, they buy something, and then it saves days of work.

Equipping an electronics workstation is expensive, and keeping it up is expensive. Like a company car. They give that away left and right here. It would be nice if I wont have to beg for tools from my employer, and write documents for the reasons and such.

It's like payback period. I've hear a top manager saying that 3 years payback time for a tool is too much. Are they seriously that short sighted? I would put all my money into something that pays back in three years, and then some.

[Muxr]

I work in a different field (software development, electronics is a hobby/side business), but I refuse to use employer's tools, I've been there, and I didn't like it. My computer is mine, I don't want corporate spyware on it. And I want to be able to splurge on it, because it affects my quality of life.

Quality tools are important, they allow you to concentrate on the problem at hand instead of being distracted by tool's inadequacies annoyances and workarounds.

At the end of the day. Time is money, and quality tools save time. Frustration and time saving is worth it to me.

[tszaboo]

I work in a different field (software development, electronics is a hobby/side business), but I refuse to use employer's tools, I've been there, and I didn't like it. My computer is mine, I don't want corporate spyware on it. And I want to be able to splurge on it, because it affects my quality of life.

Quality tools are important, they allow you to concentrate on the problem at hand instead of being distracted by tool's inadequacies annoyances and workarounds.

At the end of the day. Time is money, and quality tools save time. Frustration and time saving is worth it to me.

Yes. A nice laptop is like 1500 EUR, and the software is raging from free to infinity, free tools usually work.
If I have to buy my own tools, it starts with the same for the laptop, extra 2 screens, 7000 for Altium, say 5000 for an Infinivision 3 series scope, 1000 for a DMM, 3-400 for a second DMM, 2000 for a signal gen, and then you need a multi channel power supply, and a bunch of instruments that the job requires. Which you buy and then maybe never use again if you switch job.
So for some reason I refuse to spend my yearly salary on stuff that I need for work, and someone else will be profiting from it. Because if I use my own tools and work fast -> my salary will be X, if I use the given tools -> my salary will be X.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Yes. A nice laptop is like 1500 EUR, and the software is raging from free to infinity, free tools usually work.
If I have to buy my own tools, it starts with the same for the laptop, extra 2 screens, 7000 for Altium, say 5000 for an Infinivision 3 series scope, 1000 for a DMM, 3-400 for a second DMM, 2000 for a signal gen, and then you need a multi channel power supply, and a bunch of instruments that the job requires. Which you buy and then maybe never use again if you switch job.
So for some reason I refuse to spend my yearly salary on stuff that I need for work, and someone else will be profiting from it. Because if I use my own tools and work fast -> my salary will be X, if I use the given tools -> my salary will be X.

The reason I (and I guess Muxr, too) made the recommendation was that your original post somehow sounded as you might be working as a contractor, in which case buying better kit (and charging the customer for it  of course) is usually a good alternative (and it doesn't have to be brand new!).

If you're a salary slave however then buying your own kit isn't an option, and unfortunately it also means your only choices are to either convince your employer not to spend money on overpriced Tek crap or just suck it up and live with the shit they give you. Sometimes it helps talking to the people in procurement, which often just go and buy what their predecessor has been buying, and letting them know that they can get much more bang for the buck from other brands, and that a proper scope will save you time (which translates in cost savings).

Good luck!

[nctnico]

What also helps is to hunt for a budget. Sometimes projects have budgets for buying equipment or refurnishing (part) of the office can open up money flows towards equipment.
OTOH I did bring some of my own equipment to work a few times but then again I didn't buy that for use at my employer.

[Muxr]

I work in a different field (software development, electronics is a hobby/side business), but I refuse to use employer's tools, I've been there, and I didn't like it. My computer is mine, I don't want corporate spyware on it. And I want to be able to splurge on it, because it affects my quality of life.

Quality tools are important, they allow you to concentrate on the problem at hand instead of being distracted by tool's inadequacies annoyances and workarounds.

At the end of the day. Time is money, and quality tools save time. Frustration and time saving is worth it to me.

Yes. A nice laptop is like 1500 EUR, and the software is raging from free to infinity, free tools usually work.
If I have to buy my own tools, it starts with the same for the laptop, extra 2 screens, 7000 for Altium, say 5000 for an Infinivision 3 series scope, 1000 for a DMM, 3-400 for a second DMM, 2000 for a signal gen, and then you need a multi channel power supply, and a bunch of instruments that the job requires. Which you buy and then maybe never use again if you switch job.
So for some reason I refuse to spend my yearly salary on stuff that I need for work, and someone else will be profiting from it. Because if I use my own tools and work fast -> my salary will be X, if I use the given tools -> my salary will be X.

It's more than just a laptop, I have a small ESX cluster in my home lab and a few pieces of network gear like switches and routers. Probably about $10k. But I do agree it does depend on price. The higher it gets the harder it becomes to justify.

[vk6zgo]

I officially hate this piece of abomination guess-o-meters. Every single job I take, there is a TDS2000 series scope. No matter what. It's like every single company got deceit to actually give money for this. The lack of features is just amazing. Like, memory. And vertical scale (goes down to 20mV/div, that is like a very good resolution, customers will love it). They are still being sold. For money. In 2016. When was this coming to the market, 2002?

Now, I was testing a 10W isolated 140V output DC-DC converter. It is a bunch of those isolated 2W converters stacked on top of each other. Big letters on the front, 300V max. Big letters on the probe coming with the scope, 300V max. Ok, 140V<300V, power supply is isolated, it is driven by an Agilent power supply, that is isolated. It is safe to connect, right? And sure, you should measure the turn on transient of the supply you made? With a scope? That is 300V rated.

After a minute or so, boom, CH1 is gone.

I really hope Tek is going to a stupid bankruptcy and these TDS2000 series will stop working due to a stupid bug in the firmware. And I never have to use them again. Never.
Next time someone gives me a TDS2000 series to work with, I'm going to dump it into the sea.

If you are using a x10 probe,that 300V will be 30V at the Oscilloscope input----with a x100 probe it will be 3V,so it should be do-able.

Even if the probe broke down,that usually just kills the probe itself,& doesn't affect the 'scope.

How do I know this?

Try 3AM,looking at the grid of  a 5kW PA stage in a BC Transmitter.

"If I reduce the drive,it should be OK"

NOPE!

Ever seen a probe with everything forward of the fingerguard vapourised?
Didn't worry the old TEK 453,but it was hard to explain to the Boss!

[tautech]

Even if the probe broke down,that usually just kills the probe itself,& doesn't affect the 'scope.

How do I know this?

Try 3AM,looking at the grid of  a 5kW PA stage in a BC Transmitter.

"If I reduce the drive,it should be OK"

NOPE!

Ever seen a probe with everything forward of the fingerguard vapourised?
Didn't worry the old TEK 453,but it was hard to explain to the Boss!

REALLY 
That you survived. 

Holy hell, that gives new meaning to "close shave". 

[vk6zgo]

Even if the probe broke down,that usually just kills the probe itself,& doesn't affect the 'scope.

How do I know this?

Try 3AM,looking at the grid of  a 5kW PA stage in a BC Transmitter.

"If I reduce the drive,it should be OK"

NOPE!

Ever seen a probe with everything forward of the fingerguard vapourised?
Didn't worry the old TEK 453,but it was hard to explain to the Boss!

REALLY 
That you survived. 

Holy hell, that gives new meaning to "close shave". 

Not really,the probe was fed into the PA via an access hole,& all the doors were shut.
The Tx overload dropped it straight off,but not before it killed the probe.

Reduced drive meant,for the manufacturer "Reduced from "lots & lots",to just "lots".

In any case,I should have realised it would detune a tuned circuit---not a good idea!
It was a very 3AM thought!

[1Ghz]

I officially hate this piece of abomination guess-o-meters. Every single job I take, there is a TDS2000 series scope. No matter what. It's like every single company got deceit to actually give money for this. The lack of features is just amazing. Like, memory. And vertical scale (goes down to 20mV/div, that is like a very good resolution, customers will love it). They are still being sold. For money. In 2016. When was this coming to the market, 2002?

Yes, the TDS2000 is shit.

Yes, it sucks. I regret buying second-hand Tek TDS2012B. Here are my reasons.

1) Small screen resolution
2) Slow screen refresh rate
3) Small memory
4) No duty cycle measurement
5) No trigger out

Next time, I'll buy new Rigol or second-hand Agilent.

[andy2000]

It's hard to believe anyone still makes a scope with a passive LCD.  If a cheap digital photo frame can have an active matrix LCD, then you'd think Tek could spring for one.

Having said that, it's possible the channel failed because of high frequency overload.  The datasheet for the TDS2000 series shows a maximum input of only 13 v p-p above 3 MHz.  It starts derating at 20dB/decade at only 100 kHz.  It would be very easy to exceed that with a 1X probe.

[Helix70]

It's hard to believe anyone still makes a scope with a passive LCD.  If a cheap digital photo frame can have an active matrix LCD, then you'd think Tek could spring for one.

Having said that, it's possible the channel failed because of high frequency overload.  The datasheet for the TDS2000 series shows a maximum input of only 13 v p-p above 3 MHz.  It starts derating at 20dB/decade at only 100 kHz.  It would be very easy to exceed that with a 1X probe.

I think you are right there. Many don't realise that probes and inputs derate with frequency.

[LPaul]

Hello,

Did you actually try to discuss buying the required equipment? If they are not from an engineering background, was it in understandable terms?

Usually (depends on the country) buying stuff (be it a car or an oscilloscope) hardly cost anything because it can  be written off taxes. So if you're company is profitable and has a good cash situation it should be pretty easy to convince your hierarchy to buy the right stuff.
Maybe finding how much of a scope and at which rate it can be depreciated might help?



 Paul.

[tszaboo]

Did you actually try to discuss buying the required equipment? If they are not from an engineering background, was it in understandable terms?

New job. It was here when I started working here, some 2 months ago. The lab is in a pretty bad shape, most of the stuff is either sub standard or missing. There was out-of-university guy working on electronics working here before me.
Well, that is what you get when you start working at an almost startup. And flexible hours.

[nctnico]

Did you actually try to discuss buying the required equipment? If they are not from an engineering background, was it in understandable terms?

New job. It was here when I started working here, some 2 months ago. The lab is in a pretty bad shape, most of the stuff is either sub standard or missing. There was out-of-university guy working on electronics working here before me.
Well, that is what you get when you start working at an almost startup. And flexible hours.

Time to become the I-can't-work-like-this drama queen If the scope is relatively new I'd try to get it returned for a refund or exchange. They shouldn't have sold that kind of old crap in the first place.

[tszaboo]

Did you actually try to discuss buying the required equipment? If they are not from an engineering background, was it in understandable terms?

New job. It was here when I started working here, some 2 months ago. The lab is in a pretty bad shape, most of the stuff is either sub standard or missing. There was out-of-university guy working on electronics working here before me.
Well, that is what you get when you start working at an almost startup. And flexible hours.

Time to become the I-can't-work-like-this drama queen If the scope is relatively new I'd try to get it returned for a refund or exchange. They shouldn't have sold that kind of old crap in the first place.

I'm already doing that, dont worry. I told them when they hired me that I will do professional work with professional tools.