Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer

[KungFuJosh]

Screen capture of any screen, instead of just measurement screen

This seems somehow familiar....

247k BMP vs. 7.31k PNG might seem a little familiar too. 😉

[Martin72]

I find it interesting that not only Easttester has a “problem” with providing a universal screenshot function.
So this doesn't seem to be trivial.

[KungFuJosh]

I find it interesting that not only Easttester has a “problem” with providing a universal screenshot function.
So this doesn't seem to be trivial.

IMO it is trivial. The problem with the Hioki is that there are no physical buttons. The "Save" button appears on the screen to capture screenshots, but only on the measurement screens. So they would need to add that additional touchscreen button on all screens when activated. Which really should be active by default.

In the Tonghui LCRs, you hold the period . button down and it captures any screen.

Since it has physical buttons, EastTester could follow the TH/ST logic and assign a long press to any button to capture a screen as long as it doesn't already have a long press function.

Really what it comes down to with Hioki, is that they didn't see a need for the function, so they didn't add it. Like the other stuff I mentioned in my list. It all seems basic to me, but apparently nobody requested those things.

[points2]

hi KungFuJosh,

Given yours posts... you know a lot about this device & LCR in general.
I admit I have a limited use of my Shannon Tweezer LCR meter (bought because not too expensive, but so far : I admit I lack some basic knowlegde to get the most out of it).

When you have time... please anwser the following questions, to help "dummies" to understand how usefull a LCR-meter is : (or anyone that masters this topics like KungFuJosh :-) )

1. for what kind of inquiry, you need to use the Hioki ? in practice.
Is it vs PCB traces impedance ?
Is it just components on PCB measurement ?
Is it about trace impedance vs power delivery ? or signal delivery ?
I guess you use it for more fine measurement than a Shannon Tweezer user :-)

2. the Hioki extends to MHz range : how this makes a diff vs low end LCR-meter that don't go so high ?

3. related to previous question : what's the diff vs the results given by the Hoiki vs a cheap LCR-meter ?

4. using the Hoiki, is the limiting factor vs "fair results" => the fixture ? I mean : the way to measure matters a lot vs the results ?

5. as a dummy vs LCR-meters, when I see 5MHz MAX, my brain struggles to find how usefull such a tool can be when I deal with signals far above 100MHz...
Is this Hoiki relevant vs trace Z measurements when the signal is so far away from the "5MHz max" ?

I stop here. :-)
Anyone can reply to help the dummies.
And of course, anyone can urge the dummies to get more info here & there to be "less" dummy vs that topic :-)

[KungFuJosh]

I know a bit, but there are certainly people on here that know a lot more than me. I'll take a shot at your questions anyway. 😉

1. The simple answer is that I use the Hioki when I need higher accuracy, or a higher test frequency range.

2. Higher frequency range is required for specific devices or component values. For example, some components like 100nH or some 100µH inductors are tested at 1MHz or higher. Many high value capacitors will require low frequency testing, some lower than 100Hz.

3. Accuracy and the ability to test devices that won't work in the limited frequency range of cheaper meters.

4. Testing method (fixtures or otherwise) and open/short/cable correction always matter if accuracy is desired.

5. This one is a little beyond me. I use the Hioki to test devices looking for good accuracy. Some devices are beyond the capabilities of it. If you're trying to test a device for a higher frequency range, you might get a general idea. For more accuracy, you need a tool capable of testing in that range like a VNA.

Thanks,
Josh

[Martin72]

5. as a dummy vs LCR-meters, when I see 5MHz MAX, my brain struggles to find how usefull such a tool can be when I deal with signals far above 100MHz...
Is this Hoiki relevant vs trace Z measurements when the signal is so far away from the "5MHz max" ?

5Mhz test frequency is already very high compared to the usual LCR meters.
Of course, components that are used in the “right” RF range, these 5Mhz seem too low.
But that doesn't have to be the case, with 5Mhz you can definitely capture values in the nH/lower pF range.
What you can't capture is the self-resonance of the components.
If the component is known from the data sheet, you can confirm its value or check whether it still has this value.
It becomes more difficult when measuring unknown components.
Not in terms of the actual value, since a high-quality device like the Hioki is helpful, with its rather high measuring frequency.
If the data sheet is missing, however, you don't know the self-resonance  frequency and usually can't capture it with a measuring frequency of up to 5Mhz.
That's a bit of a showstopper, but you need a VNA to avoid unpleasant surprises when you're repairing/creating a high-frequency circuit with unknown components.

[KungFuJosh]

Had some fun testing a GMR100HTBFA10L0 2512 0.01ohm 1% resistor with version 5A of Mike's test fixture. It works great, I'm a big fan.

This resistor is too thin for my regular SMT test fixture.

Thanks,
Josh

[Martin72]

The Hioki is simply a great tool.

[KungFuJosh]

The Hioki is simply a great tool.

Absolutely! And Mike's test board is awesome too.

Here's a TLRP3A20CR005FTE 2512 0.005ohm 1%:



Measured at 300kHz in case somebody wants to compare. 😉

[Martin72]

Measure at 300kHz in case somebody wants to compare.

To really compare it, I would need exactly your resistor and your test fixture.

[KungFuJosh]

Measure at 300kHz in case somebody wants to compare.

To really compare it, I would need exactly your resistor and your test fixture.

Well, those two resistors are in the box with your PCB, so... 😉

[mawyatt]

Results look spot on, how is the repeatability?

Did you get a gold plated PCB, or rough up the contact surface?

Your results verify what we believed with this Split-Kelvin Technique when properly utilized and applied can produce excellent results down in the milli-Ω impedance levels and not just at DC

Best,

[mawyatt]

Measure at 300kHz in case somebody wants to compare.

To really compare it, I would need exactly your resistor and your test fixture.

This Split-Kelvin Technique removes a major part of the measurement uncertainty with the fixture and DUT contact parameters if applied properly as Josh has demonstrated and we've mentioned earlier during the development.

Allowing better understanding of the DUT details and not contaminated by the fixture/contact artifacts at milli-Ω impedance levels was the goal of this undertaking which apparently has been achieved.

One is somewhat reliant on the precision DUT to "verify" any result, with quality precision SMD components utilized one can glean details with reasonable fidelity without the need for the same actual fixture and same SMD. These 2512 precision resistors utilized are an excellent resource for precision milli-Ω SMD DUT references for low Z references, and not expensive.

Same goes for high Z measurements, where one can utilize either the Split-Kelvin or Standard type SMD fixtures, here the precision C0G/NP0 SMD capacitors are an excellent low cost DUT SMD reference for low capacitance values.

Your Tonghui ST meter with the Split-Kelvin Fixture should produce results similar to what has been presented, not sure how the ET will behave, pay attention to the reversed meter terminals, probably won't matter with this fixture tho.

Best,

[KungFuJosh]

Results look spot on, how is the repeatability?

Did you get a gold plated PCB, or rough up the contact surface?

Your results verify what we believed with this Split-Kelvin Technique when properly utilized and applied can produce excellent results down in the milli-Ω impedance levels and not just at DC

No issues with repeatability.

Yes, I usually get gold plated PCBs unless the cost is crazy. Here I figured it would be beneficial. Total cost was $20 for 5 PCBs including the slow shipping, so I was okay with it. 😉

I think the split design on this is great. The only issue is making sure the DUT contacts all 4 pads well, which requires paying good attention when inserting the DUT. For these low Z parts, I tested continuity on all 4 pads before reinstalling the fixture on the LCR to confirm the DUT was seated well.

Thank you for sharing the PCB design!

Thanks,
Josh

[mawyatt]

Results look spot on, how is the repeatability?

Did you get a gold plated PCB, or rough up the contact surface?

Your results verify what we believed with this Split-Kelvin Technique when properly utilized and applied can produce excellent results down in the milli-Ω impedance levels and not just at DC

No issues with repeatability.

Yes, I usually get gold plated PCBs unless the cost is crazy. Here I figured it would be beneficial. Total cost was $20 for 5 PCBs including the slow shipping, so I was okay with it. 😉

I think the split design on this is great. The only issue is making sure the DUT contacts all 4 pads well, which requires paying good attention when inserting the DUT. For these low Z parts, I tested continuity on all 4 pads before reinstalling the fixture on the LCR to confirm the DUT was seated well.

Thank you for sharing the PCB design!

Thanks,
Josh

Repeatability was key in the development, we couldn't get good results with low Z SMDs before this custom fixture, even the Standard SMD fixtures weren't very good.

That's really good, $20 for 5 gold plated custom PCBs with shipping!!! Did the PCBs come from JLCPCB (where ours are from)?

Glad you could use the design, wish others would note the advantage of this technique, it's not like it's expensive.

Best,

[KungFuJosh]

Repeatability was key in the development, we couldn't get good results with low Z SMDs before this custom fixture, even the Standard SMD fixtures weren't very good.

That's really good, $20 for 5 gold plated custom PCBs with shipping!!! Did the PCBs come from JLCPCB (where ours are from)?

Glad you could use the design, wish others would note the advantage of this technique, it's not like it's expensive.

My generic SMD fixture is ok, and usually pretty stable, but doesn't fit all SMD stuff. For example, the 10mΩ resistor was too thin, and fell beneath the contacts.

Yes, JLC. I use JLC for most stuff, sometimes WellPCB for more robust stuff or weirder details. $20 was including removing the order number, shipping, ENIG, PayPal fee, etc. For more expensive PCB orders I pay for the better shipping. In this case, better shipping cost as much as the PCBs, so I took the risk. 😉 It was still pretty fast though. Order placed on 9/15 and delivered on 9/27.

Thanks,
Josh

[mawyatt]

My generic SMD fixture is ok, and usually pretty stable, but doesn't fit all SMD stuff. For example, the 10mΩ resistor was too thin, and fell beneath the contacts.

If the Standard SMD Fixture is like ours, getting repeatable results for say a 10 miil-Ω 2512 Resistor within 100~200uΩ was extremely difficult. The plunger contact impedance was the culprit, which of course is partially removed by the Split-Kelvin Technique

Of course the Standard Fixture works quite well for higher Z SMD components, where the contact variations have less impact on the overall DUT measurement.

Best

[KungFuJosh]

Ha, well, I couldn't even get the low Z stuff on my generic fixture. 😉

[mawyatt]

Yes very difficult with the Standard Fixture. The Zero/Short calibration gives a hint at why this is so. If we do a Zero/Short cal and then come back and make a Zero/Short measurement later we don't get anything repeatable around 0.000Ω for the two Standard SMD Fixtures we have/had (one has been converted to accept External DC Bias).

In defense of these Standard SMD Fixtures they were not intended for low Z measurements because the Force and Sense Terminals on the Hi and Low sides make contact at the thin brass bolt at the plunger bottom. This leaves the entire Low and Hi plunger large diameter cores and thin tip impedances un-sensed as well as the DUT contact impedance on each side un-sensed, which creates an overall high built-in uncertainty in low Z measurements, and this shows up in the Zero/Short Cal attempts

However, the Split-Klevin Technique SMD Fixture provides a remedy for such and produces excellent low Z results with good repeatability as you've demonstrated

Simply stated this technique works and works quite well for low Z SMD measurements within capable hands 

Best

[KungFuJosh]

However, the Split-Klevin Technique SMD Fixture provides a remedy for such and produces excellent low Z results with good repeatability as you've demonstrated

Not only that, it gives better low Z results on a broader frequency range. I've found with other fixtures it's not too hard to get 0.00mΩ Z at 1kHz after short cal, but going higher will shift that (not too much, but still not 0.00). With your 5A fixture it showed 0.00mΩ at 100kHz, which I don't think I've seen with another fixture.

[mawyatt]

Yep it's pretty good all around

If you sit back and think about what's happening with the fixture and DUT, especially wrt the current path from Hcur to Lcur and how the DUT voltage is sensed at Hpot and Lpot which happens to be on the DUT. Maybe sketch things out electrically, then it does make sense it performs rather well across the  range

We have some solid copper 0.55mm sheet cut to about 2512 size we use for short, which seems to work OK. What do you use for a short and open?



Best

[KungFuJosh]

We have some solid copper 0.55mm sheet cut to about 2512 size we use for short, which seems to work OK. What do you use for a short and open?

I used a smashed piece of 12AWG copper wire for short, but I'm ordering CSS2H-2512C-000E and WSL251200000ZEA9 to test for short cal.

I don't use anything for open cal since the pads are always the same distance from each other.

[KungFuJosh]

I got the 0Ω resistors I mentioned above, and had some fun with 1mΩ and a 0.5mΩ resistors. 1mΩ was easily repeatable. 0.5mΩ was repeatable, but annoying to seat correctly. I wound up putting it in upside-down, and it made contact better. I guess the bottom wasn't very flat.

Jumper resistor shown in the photo:


Thanks,
Josh

[KungFuJosh]

This was interesting. Today I used the IM3570 to test some guitar pickups I recently acquired. Pickup nerds usually like to see Ls @ 1kHz, Rdc, Cp @ 100kHz, Q @ 3kHz.

[mawyatt]

I got the 0Ω resistors I mentioned above, and had some fun with 1mΩ and a 0.5mΩ resistors. 1mΩ was easily repeatable. 0.5mΩ was repeatable, but annoying to seat correctly. I wound up putting it in upside-down, and it made contact better. I guess the bottom wasn't very flat.

Jumper resistor shown in the photo:


Thanks,
Josh

We've seen this a few times as well, flipping the SMD DUT over gives better results sometimes. DUT surface planarity is likely the cause.

Nice close up image of the Bourns Zero Ohm Shunt in the fixture

I like the slight bowed nature of this shunt and how we made our zero ohm shunt earlier from Cu sheet. This places the force of the plunger alone the edge of the shunt and give a slight "scrubbing" action as the plunger slight force pushes down and slightly spreads the shunt.

Have you done any repeatability testing with this shunt? Like make a Zero Ω Cal, make some DUT low Ω Resistors, then return a few hours later and repeat checking the shunt for readings and the low Ω Resistors, and maybe perform this over a couple days?

If the PCB Gold plating holds up (it should as this is used in quality connector contact surfaces) seems like a good option, we were going to do this way back but never got around to a PCB reorder, too many "other" things got in the way.

Anyway, nice work

Best