Hioki IM3570 LCR & Impedance Analyzer

[Martin72]

ETA: Even though the TH26011CS wasn't as stable, it still it did surprisingly well in the 1MHz range considering it's only rated officially up to 100kHz.

The “official rating” is ultimately just a sentence in the product description; there is no data sheet with the corresponding specifications and what they are based on.
I would rather see it as a recommendation, so that you are still on the “safe side” when measuring with such cables, with regard to the specification of the measuring device.

[KungFuJosh]

The “official rating” is ultimately just a sentence in the product description; there is no data sheet with the corresponding specifications and what they are based on.
I would rather see it as a recommendation, so that you are still on the “safe side” when measuring with such cables, with regard to the specification of the measuring device.

Agreed. But when there's no datasheet, a product description on the manufacturer's website is the next best thing. 😉

[Martin72]

I see things a little differently in principle.
Anyone who, like ST for example, adorns themselves with the ISO certificate should also be able to provide corresponding documents in accordance with the ISO standards.
They don't, they can't.
A product description is basically just a lot of nonsense if none of the things described are traceable.

[KungFuJosh]

I agree with all of that too, but you're talking about your job's needs with traceable everything. I'm measuring crap in my home office. 😉

[Martin72]

That has nothing to do with it.
YOU are not Iso certified.

[KungFuJosh]

I don't wanna be, that sounds invasive! 😉

[KungFuJosh]

I gotta send a big thank you out to @mawyatt. Constantly reminding us of the importance of proper open/short correction really helps when trying to find specific characteristics for a component.

For example, getting the open and short distances correct (and remembering to correct the cable length) was essential to get the right values I needed for a 1nF cap for the dissipation factor test on my lcr cal test PCB.

I had to cut a piece of 12AWG copper wire the right length for the 1206 capacitor so the results would make sense. I used a chopstick handle that was about the right size for open compensation. It worked pretty well. 😉

This capacitor model was all too low:


But this one was close to my target of 0.00010:


Thanks, Mike!

-Josh

[mawyatt]

You are welcome Josh, that's what we are here for

Nice work with your Hioki IM3570 and hopefully fully calibrated IM3532-50!!

Best,

[KungFuJosh]

I decided to screw around with the "LCR Meter Sample Application" from Hioki. The UI is mediocre, but it works. It looks a lot better than the old one, so I'm curious if I can get it to work with the 3532-50.

It also has a sweep direct to Excel function, which is cute. It didn't use the analyzer mode for this, so it seems useful for those without it.

[KungFuJosh]

The "LCR Meter Sample Application" is a little goofy with the analyzer features. Scaling is odd. It saves a .jpg but labels it a .bmp so IrfanView gets mad and fixes it.

It seems like a couple steps forward in some ways, and a couple steps backwards compared to the screen captures directly from the device.

ETA: Added screen capture from IM3570.

[The Electrician]

I gotta send a big thank you out to @mawyatt. Constantly reminding us of the importance of proper open/short correction really helps when trying to find specific characteristics for a component.

For example, getting the open and short distances correct (and remembering to correct the cable length) was essential to get the right values I needed for a 1nF cap for the dissipation factor test on my lcr cal test PCB.

I had to cut a piece of 12AWG copper wire the right length for the 1206 capacitor so the results would make sense. I used a chopstick handle that was about the right size for open compensation. It worked pretty well. 😉

This capacitor model was all too low:


But this one was close to my target of 0.00010:


Thanks, Mike!

-Josh

It looks to me like you don't have cable length  set correctly.

[KungFuJosh]

It looks to me like you don't have cable length  set correctly.

I was using this thingamabob. 😉

[indman]

Attached are the 100kHz and 118kHz screenshots, note that they were taken at different room temperatures, hence the change.
At 1kHz the ST42 makes sense and Z/ESR agree, but at 10kHz Z makes sense, and ESR is too low.

Hmm.. I have no serious complaints about the ST42 in terms of ESR measurements; based on your photos, there are more questions about the Hioki results.
He is trying to measure capacitance at a frequency of 100 kHz, but it is clear that this is not easy for him, because the capacitor is already close to or has reached its resonant frequency and it is already more like an inductance than a capacitance. This is one of the reasons why the real capacitance of capacitors of this size is measured far from any resonances at a frequency of 100-120 Hz and this condition is directly stated in the documentation
For example, I took a Hitano EXR 1000mkFx50V capacitor similar to yours, as well as a URL108MOJF08 1000mkFx6.3V polymer capacitor and measured them on DE-5000 and ST42. I attach the results below. I have indicated in red those conditions that you need to pay attention to when assessing the quality of a capacitor. The test results are basically very similar, but with one very important caveat. ST42 tweezers are very sensitive in the range below 10 milliohms. The readings in this area are very unstable and highly dependent on close contact with the part.

[KungFuJosh]

Hmm.. I have no serious complaints about the ST42 in terms of ESR measurements; based on your photos, there are more questions about the Hioki results.
He is trying to measure capacitance at a frequency of 100 kHz, but it is clear that this is not easy for him, because the capacitor is already close to or has reached its resonant frequency and it is already more like an inductance than a capacitance. This is one of the reasons why the real capacitance of capacitors of this size is measured far from any resonances at a frequency of 100-120 Hz and this condition is directly stated in the documentation

I completely agree with you, it's essentially pointless to test C of a 1mF cap at 100kHz. The only reason I test the cap at that range is for an ESR comparison to the datasheet that claims ESR ratings were tested at 100kHz across their full range of capacitors...which I still think is weird. If the cap only shows the correct C value at 120Hz, why wouldn't you take an ESR measurement there too?

[KungFuJosh]

try a much wider sweep sat 100 to 1MHz Log Scale and post on the IM3570 thread.

Warming up the meter now. X or Y or both log scale?

[Martin72]

If the cap only shows the correct C value at 120Hz, why wouldn't you take an ESR measurement there too?

Because the ESR at 120 Hz is not so interesting.
The lowest possible ESR plays a role in switched power supplies, hence the 100 kHz measurement frequency.

[indman]

I still think is weird. If the cap only shows the correct C value at 120Hz, why wouldn't you take an ESR measurement there too?

This seems logical and the RLC meter allows you to measure this. But what will the ESR result at 120Hz give you?
It will be highly dependent on the reactive constituting of the capacitor.
It is for this reason and because the natural resonance frequency of standard aluminum electrolytic capacitors is usually less than or close to 100kHz. I.e.. to measure ESR, the frequency of the oscillator must be tuned until the minimum reading at the natural resonance frequency Z(w) = ESR is obtained. In such a case, the result will not depend on either the capacitance or the equivalent series inductance.
In addition, the ESR of capacitors is of great practical importance for impulsed devices that operate at frequencies much higher than 100Hz, that is, at tens or hundreds of kilohertz.

P.S Martin72 already beat me to it, but I didn't copy what he said.
I also forgot to add that at a frequency of 120 Hz a very important parameter of the quality of the capacitor is also measured - this is the loss tangent or D (dissipation factor). For high-quality electrolytic capacitors, it should not exceed a value of 0.09-0.10.

[KungFuJosh]

Thank you both! More specific things to test at specific frequencies. Fun! 😉

[KungFuJosh]

Here's the cap sweep done a couple different ways. I used the exported data from the "LCR Meter Sample Application" to create the Excel spreadsheet, and then the data exported directly from the IM3570 to create spreadsheet v2. The data appears the same on the chart, despite being separate test runs.

[indman]

Here's the cap sweep done a couple different ways. I used the exported data from the "LCR Meter Sample Application" to create the Excel spreadsheet, and then the data exported directly from the IM3570 to create spreadsheet v2. The data appears the same on the chart, despite being separate test runs.

In confirmation of the above theses about the resonant frequency of the capacitor, your first screenshot shows very well that after 38kHz the capacitance 1mF miraculously acquires the properties of inductance.

[mawyatt]

One should consider measuring Capacitor ESR at or near the frequency of intended use for the best results within a circuit. If this isn't known beforehand, or for general purpose use, Capacitor characterizing over a broad frequency range and creating a plot of ESR vs frequency seems worthwhile.

Also note that certain type capacitors (high dielectric ceramic types) have widely varying parameters with applied voltage, temperature and age which creates a difficult and time consuming effort to characterize.

Best,

[mawyatt]

Here's the cap sweep done a couple different ways. I used the exported data from the "LCR Meter Sample Application" to create the Excel spreadsheet, and then the data exported directly from the IM3570 to create spreadsheet v2. The data appears the same on the chart, despite being separate test runs.

Try plotting with Log Log scales, this will show Z better over a wide frequency range.

Best,

[KungFuJosh]

Try plotting with Log Log scales, this will show Z better over a wide frequency range.

That's super easy to mess with in the spreadsheet.

[mawyatt]

Nice plot 

Best

[Smokey]

I guess it was only a matter of time, but here's the inside of the L2000 fixture. Looks like exceptional quality and design to me. I'm not taking apart the clips. 😉

What is the point of going from 4 BNCs on the instrument, through a box and cable to another box with 4 SMA?, and then out to the probes?  Why not directly connect a set of probes to the instrument BNC?  What is the point of the extra boxes and cables in the signal path here?  I would understand if the probes and BNC box was one unit, but separate probes with SMAs?  The frequency only goes to 5MHz.  BNC is more than fine for that.