Hioki DT4282 or Brymen BM869s digital multimeter - which is the best choice?

[Muxr]

Yeah, it's so weird how the price varies so much in different countries based on VAT. If you leave in the US, the Brymen is less than half the price. But in the UK, Hioki is only 30 pounds more.

[TheBay]

Basically the DT4281 has no 10A current range, which is a must have, for the 4181 they say:

•   Measures large currents with optional clamp probe (only for DT4281, which has no 10 A terminal for accident prevention)


Get the DT4282

Seeing as I got the price wrong (I thought it was with VAT before I logged in)
I am looking at the Bryman again or a Fluke.

[Lightages]

I am not sure what the extra safety is, except for maybe the input shutters. The BM869S has a higher rating, CATIV/1000, and is actually UL tested. 40GBP difference gets you the PC connection option for the Brymen and the magnetic hanger, if you want to compare equal money.

Like I said, it is up to personal preference and what features are important to you and for what price.

[rvalente]

I am not sure what the extra safety is, except for maybe the input shutters. The BM869S has a higher rating, CATIV/1000, and is actually UL tested. 40GBP difference gets you the PC connection option for the Brymen and the magnetic hanger, if you want to compare equal money.

Like I said, it is up to personal preference and what features are important to you and for what price.

Well I can't argue with you about the CAT IV 1000V on Brymen and I believe its UL listed and etc... but neither Fluke, Agilent, Gossen, Hioki etc has this class of instrument CAT IV 1000V, I prefer the average CAT III 100V or CAT IV 600V which is know standard.

Your footer says you're a Brymen dist in South America them I understand your sales point of view.

[Lightages]

Please, why does everyone think that my opinion of Brymen is dependent on me being a distributor? It is insulting. I became a distributor after, AFTER, buying three Brymen multimeters and forming my opinion of them.

I make nothing telling people to buy a Brymen from TME, nor from anywhere else. If something is a better buy than a Brymen, then buy it. I only try to provide facts and correct misconceptions when they arise.

So a company has a higher rating for safety on a product, proven and third party tested,  and you prefer to go with the lower one? 

[mos6502]

I am not sure what the extra safety is, except for maybe the input shutters. The BM869S has a higher rating, CATIV/1000, and is actually UL tested. 40GBP difference gets you the PC connection option for the Brymen and the magnetic hanger, if you want to compare equal money.

Like I said, it is up to personal preference and what features are important to you and for what price.

Well I can't argue with you about the CAT IV 1000V on Brymen and I believe its UL listed and etc... but neither Fluke, Agilent, Gossen, Hioki etc has this class of instrument CAT IV 1000V, I prefer the average CAT III 100V or CAT IV 600V which is know standard.

Your footer says you're a Brymen dist in South America them I understand your sales point of view.

Are you saying Brymen are lying about their specs?

[rvalente]

Please, why does everyone think that my opinion of Brymen is dependent on me being a distributor? It is insulting. I became a distributor after, AFTER, buying three Brymen multimeters and forming my opinion of them.

I make nothing telling people to buy a Brymen from TME, nor from anywhere else. If something is a better buy than a Brymen, then buy it. I only try to provide facts and correct misconceptions when they arise.

So a company has a higher rating for safety on a product, proven and third party tested,  and you prefer to go with the lower one? 

Sorry but my comment does not intends to offend you, it is just natural to think that a Brymen dist will try to sell his fish

I believe Brymen is a good meter, I would own if need but recently got myself a 87V (second hand) why? Well, just inspires my more confidence...

Anyways, for our friend in doubt, I'd still go the Hioki (or just do like me and get a 87V second hand) but I should confess, this Hioki is sexy!

[rvalente]

I am not sure what the extra safety is, except for maybe the input shutters. The BM869S has a higher rating, CATIV/1000, and is actually UL tested. 40GBP difference gets you the PC connection option for the Brymen and the magnetic hanger, if you want to compare equal money.

Like I said, it is up to personal preference and what features are important to you and for what price.

Well I can't argue with you about the CAT IV 1000V on Brymen and I believe its UL listed and etc... but neither Fluke, Agilent, Gossen, Hioki etc has this class of instrument CAT IV 1000V, I prefer the average CAT III 100V or CAT IV 600V which is know standard.

Your footer says you're a Brymen dist in South America them I understand your sales point of view.

Are you saying Brymen are lying about their specs?

No, not at all. If it is UL listed them I or believe or I must prove it wrong, since I have no intention or desire to do so, why bother?

[Wytnucls]

While it doesn't hurt to test a multimeter to CAT IV 1000V standards, it is not an industry requirement.
Perhaps it was deemed to be too dangerous an environment for a handheld instrument.
Mainstream meters are tested to a maximum of CAT III 1000V/CAT IV 600V. That doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't achieve the higher rating.

The input jack blanking system is far more useful, eliminating a common cause of accidents, where the user tries to measure voltage with the test leads in the current jacks.

[Lightages]

While it doesn't hurt to test specify a multimeter to CAT IV 1000V standards high accuracy, it is not an industry requirement.
Perhaps it was deemed to be too dangerous an environment not necessary for a handheld instrument.
Mainstream meters are tested to a maximum of CAT III 1000V/CAT IV 600V specified to an accuracy of usually 0.5%. That doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't achieve the higher rating accuracy.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. If something is better rated, it is better. Anyone can discount the importance to them if they want, but that doesn't mean it isn't a real benefit to someone else or a better capability. They are objective ratings and specifications that an individual can assess for their own needs.

[Wytnucls]

The meter is not 'better'. All it means is that the meter is deemed safe to use in an environment which is not an industry standard (CAT IV 1000V). The other meters are just as safe (no physical threat to the user) in their planned environment (CAT IV 600V).
Your analogy to accuracy doesn't make sense to me.

To the average user, a port blanking system is far more useful than a CAT IV 1000V rating. If you can't agree with that, that's the end of the conversation.

[Fat]

Please, why does everyone think that my opinion of Brymen is dependent on me being a distributor? It is insulting. I became a distributor after, AFTER, buying three Brymen multimeters and forming my opinion of them.

I make nothing telling people to buy a Brymen from TME, nor from anywhere else. If something is a better buy than a Brymen, then buy it. I only try to provide facts and correct misconceptions when they arise.

So a company has a higher rating for safety on a product, proven and third party tested,  and you prefer to go with the lower one? 

Yes, Lightages spent a great deal of time on email with me to provide me options EVEN THOUGH HE COUDN'T SELL ME A METER.  He has a high opinion of Brymen, so do I.  It's finally the replacement for the Fluke that was stolen from me some years ago.  Is it a Fluke, no!  Is it a great meter, yes.  Lightages provided me a lot of information, and his time, that helped me make the decision even though he wasn't making a penny on it.

[Lightages]

The meter is not 'better'. All it means is that the meter is deemed safe to use in an environment which is not an industry standard (CAT IV 1000V). The other meters are just as safe (no physical threat to the user) in their planned environment (CAT IV 600V).
Your analogy to accuracy doesn't make sense to me.

To the average user, a port blanking system is far more useful than a CAT IV 1000V rating. If you can't agree with that, that's the end of the conversation.

My analogy was to show that you are discounting a real and objective safety rating as not being useful to you, just as to some people a higher accuracy specification is not necessarily useful to them, especially if a price is involved. You were implying that the CATIV/600V CATIII/1000V rated meter could meet a CATIV/1000V rating and therefore the CATIV/1000V rating was to be disregarded as superfluous. This would be a dangerous assumption that your meter could meet a higher safety rating, just because it wasn't proven to not, and the same can be said about assuming your voltage reading is more accurate than the specification allows. It might, but do you count on it?

How is CATIV/1000V not a standard? It is a made up spec that isn't real? From the Amprobe HD160 specs:

12 kV impulse (1.2 µS/50 µS) based on EN 61010-1:2001 impulse requirement for at CAT IV 1000 V product. This product should not be used in installations where transients exceed 12 kV

How about this:
http://www.transcat.com/media/pdf/Multimeters.pdf
How is this not an industry standard? Fluke doesn't have anything with this rating so it does not exist? Your favorite meter doesn't have it, so it isn't a real specification or standard?

I also believe that the shutter mechanism on the inputs is a great idea and a huge improvement in safety over what Fluke, Amprobe, Extech, Agilent, and many others do not do to protect the user. But if you want to use a meter in a situation where a CATIV/1000V rating is needed, then the shutters don't add that capability. When did I say differently? I hate straw man arguments.

Again it is situational, preference, what you want or need for certain functions and features over others and at what price you want to pay. It could be argued that the shutters on the Hioki could save more than the extra cost of the meter in preventing blown fuses and the cost to replace them. That sounds like a good justification for the extra cost of the Hioki right there. How many fuses have I blown in a multimeter in 35 years? One. If a person is constantly blowing fuses, then the shutters could save money.

[Muxr]

The port blanking on the Hioki is a nifty feature to keep dust and other crap out as well, I like it. I also must admit, Brymen is a pretty good value although it's missing some essentials that I think are important like latched continuity, auto hold, and a better battery life.

I also don't like the way it looks. The silkscreen color choice is pretty fugly, yellow, red and cyan? eewwk. It looks like they started with a smaller DMM and inflated the case, but kept the selector switch small, just doesn't look right.

It's big and not well thought out from the design perspective imho. BM869s is probably one of the ugliest modern DMMs I've seen. I know it's just a tool and a physical look doesn't matter much, but a well designed tool can be an inspiration. I am not picking on Brymen either I think Brymen BM257s looks alright.

It does pack some nifty features though and that might be more important to some. Hioki's lack of bargraph is unfortunate, that kind of disqualifies it for me personally.

[Lightages]

The Hioki only has 100 hrs of battery life too.......

[Muxr]

The Hioki only has 100 hrs of battery life too.......

wasn't aware, thanks.. pretty poor imo.

[Wytnucls]

I'm well aware of the IEC low voltage safety standards. Talk of a straw man 
There is a difference between a safety standard and an industry standard.
If the industry had wanted a CAT IV 1000V multimeter, don't you think that the big players, like Fluke, Agilent, Gossen, Hioki, Chauvin Arnoux and others would have tested their meters to that safety level a long time ago? There is just no requirement to do so.
Brymen could test their meter to 10,000V, it wouldn't make it any safer than all other UL listed meters, rated for CAT III 1000V CAT IV 600V, in that environment. In all cases, the internal damage is contained, without injury to the user. All we could argue is the size of the bang inside.
And please, stop distorting my posts, this is getting insulting. I never suggested that a CAT IV 600V meter could be used in a CAT IV 1000V environment.

[Lightages]

I don't know why we keep butting heads over things. I know that we see things basically the same way and I respect you and your opinion. Please don't mistake disagreement with disrespect. I interpreted your post as implying something. I apologize if I read it wrongly and it was never my intention to put words in your mouth. On a multinational forum, semantics are important, and misunderstanding is bound to happen with a mix of cultures and subtleties of meanings for words depending on that.

"Industry norm" and "safety standard" are the wordings that would make it less ambiguous me. A standard is that by which all is judged, a norm is that which is usual and accepted as the current accepted state of affairs. They are not necessarily the same thing. Semantics can matter when we are trying to be precise.

If I ever say anything that is not fact nor supported by evidence, then I expect everyone to jump on me and force me to explain. I hope you have no aversions to the same. It is not personal. No hard feelings here and no insult intended.

[Lightages]

If the industry had wanted a CAT IV 1000V multimeter, don't you think that the big players, like Fluke, Agilent, Gossen, Hioki, Chauvin Arnoux and others would have tested their meters to that safety level a long time ago? There is just no requirement to do so.

Amprobe and  Brymen at least see a need for it. Just because someone does not make things a certain way does not mean there is no request or demand for it. If Hioki sees a demand for shuttered jacks, why doesn't Fluke? The opposite is true too also. Just because someone builds something a certain way doesn't mean there is actual demand for that form. Sometimes manufacturers force things to be a certain way for reasons like profit or to make it easier for warranty.

Brymen could test their meter to 10,000V, it wouldn't make it any safer than all other UL listed meters, rated for CAT III 1000V CAT IV 600V, in that environment. In all cases, the internal damage is contained, without injury to the user. All we could argue is the size of the bang inside.

So you say that a meter rated at CATIV/1000V does matter when compared to CATIII/1000V when viewed only from the rating of a CATIII/1000V? Well    of course not! It matters when you need a meter that meets the spec, not for some lower spec. So Amprobe, under the same umbrella company as Fluke, are making a multimeter that there is no call nor use for?

So there is no call for meters with these ratings, but at least two big companies make them for no reason? I am sorry, but you have lost me with that one. Again, why doesn't Fluke make meters with shutters on the input jacks? With the logic presented, then Hioki is doing something pointless too. If Fluke doesn't see the need, then it is pointless?

Again..... Buy the meter that best meets the needs of the situation or use and don't buy the ones that don't. If you are working on something that needs CATIV/1000V ratings, then get a meter with that standard. If you want to buy a meter for someone who is always blowing current fuses, then get something that helps prevent that.

The Hioki DT4282 has many things to recommend it over many other meters, including the BM869S. It also lacks some features of other multimeters. If you want those other features and/or a lower price then get the other meter more suited to your needs. It is that simple. Discounting the specs and/or features of a product because you don't care for those specs and/or features does not make them irrelevant for others and their needs.

[mos6502]

about the jack shutters, how does that work when you want to turn off the meter? say you're in amp mode and want to shut it off, do you have to unplug the lead from the amp jack to be able to turn the dial? if so, that could be quite annoying in certain situations.

[5ky]

about the jack shutters, how does that work when you want to turn off the meter? say you're in amp mode and want to shut it off, do you have to unplug the lead from the amp jack to be able to turn the dial? if so, that could be quite annoying in certain situations.

If it's how the others with shutters work, you have to unplug the leads from A/mA to turn the meter off.  (I guess unless they have "Off" on both sides of the range)

[mos6502]

about the jack shutters, how does that work when you want to turn off the meter? say you're in amp mode and want to shut it off, do you have to unplug the lead from the amp jack to be able to turn the dial? if so, that could be quite annoying in certain situations.

If it's how the others with shutters work, you have to unplug the leads from A/mA to turn the meter off.  (I guess unless they have "Off" on both sides of the range)

I suspected as much. Wow, that sucks. A simple warning beeper is a much better way to do it IMHO.

[BravoV]

As I rarely use current measurement at DMMs, I have plain rubber plug to cover current jacks at my 287s. 

[Muxr]

It's probably a latched shutter. As in once the lead is in it doesn't prevent the setting change, but it probably beeps at you. When you pull out the lead it closes the shutter.

[TheBay]

Talking of shuttered Jacks, I have an LG Electronics multimeter and that has shuttered jacks, it will turn to OFF, it beeps if the lead is in and you are on the wrong setting. But it won't let you plug a lead in on the other settings if it's already out.

I think I might go with the BM867/BM869 after reading up on meters for too long now lol!