Author Topic: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?  (Read 17972 times)

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Offline tiagobarachoTopic starter

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High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« on: January 23, 2014, 03:23:19 am »
Hi folks... If anyone can help me... I just  bought an Rigol 2072A oscilloscope and I read on its specifications that maximum voltage is 300V RMS..
Here where i live, its 220 AC, but after rectifier on power supplies it goes to 330-350 volts DC....
How can i use my Rigol 2072A scope safely to connect to MOSFETS in this rectified line ? Do i need to buy an high voltage probe ?... I am beginning with oscilloscope and I will use just for troubleshooting for repairing devices.. so... i would like not to pay much more for anything else... the scope was already hard on my pocket... So.. What should i do ? buy probe ? buy some adapters ? attenuator ? Help me out...
 
Thanks in advanced !
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 03:34:38 am by tiagobaracho »
 

Offline SArepairman

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2014, 11:34:51 am »
10:1 probes from decent probe manufacture are fine, with 10:1 your oscope will see 30V. Its probably safe up to ~450V.

Hook it up and don't touch it while its on and you will be fine.

I don't know if I would try this with some shit ass probe though.
 

Offline SArepairman

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2014, 11:43:58 am »
keep in mind converting RMS to PP
 

Offline Psi

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2014, 11:49:51 am »
If the probes that came with the scope have the 1x / 10x switch and you want to work with 230VAC put some tape over the switch so it will stay on x10.

It's easy to bump the switch to x1 otherwise.
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Offline PA4TIM

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2014, 11:51:30 am »
This sort of info you can find in the spec sheet of the probes. I do not know about your scope but some scopes are only 300VDC if you use a 10X probe. In that case you need a 100X probe.
But be carefull most scopes and probes are only stated for DC and low frequence use , the impedance decreases when frequency increases.

But be very carefull when measuring mains with a scope. Use an isolation transformer or a differential probe. The scope ground is connected to the ground of the probe, so if you clip the ground probe on a live line you use your scope to test the fuse in your mains entrance.
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Offline Altemir

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2014, 12:14:52 pm »
tiagobaracho
We are working with HV (up to 7.5kV), using Pintek differential probes. In some cases we are using Tektronix TPS2024 DSO with full galvanic isolation between Ground and between channels. I recommend 100:1 probes (for example HP-9258) for your safe using. Let remember pa4tim recommendations about grounding and isolation.
N.B. For Rigol RP3300A probes - 300Vrms maximum voltage. Remember about voltage derating with frequency.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 12:17:12 pm by Altemir »
 

Offline tiagobarachoTopic starter

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2014, 01:08:45 pm »
keep in mind converting RMS to PP
SArepaiman,  when i have a diode bridge rectifying 220AC to DC , the output it PP or RMS ?.. I have a fluke multimeter and It shows around 340 volts DC....If its PP, 300 RMS in PP would be 424 volts right ? so it would be safe to me to use my stock probes in 10x to measure ?
I will never use it beyond those voltages... but i would like to operate it safely on those PWM supply boards to test the mosfets operation...
 

Offline tiagobarachoTopic starter

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2014, 01:12:37 pm »
If the probes that came with the scope have the 1x / 10x switch and you want to work with 230VAC put some tape over the switch so it will stay on x10.

It's easy to bump the switch to x1 otherwise.
Hi PSI.. thanks for your reply.... acctualy for the AC 220V i know its safe to use the probe rated to 300 Vrms.... but when there is a diode bridge rectifying to DC and the big cap after it , I do check on my fluke multimeter and it shows around 340 volts DC.... so i got worry if i can test those DC lines on my scope that is rated to 300 volts RMS.....i am a little bit confused...

 

Offline tiagobarachoTopic starter

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2014, 01:17:33 pm »
This sort of info you can find in the spec sheet of the probes. I do not know about your scope but some scopes are only 300VDC if you use a 10X probe. In that case you need a 100X probe.
But be carefull most scopes and probes are only stated for DC and low frequence use , the impedance decreases when frequency increases.

But be very carefull when measuring mains with a scope. Use an isolation transformer or a differential probe. The scope ground is connected to the ground of the probe, so if you clip the ground probe on a live line you use your scope to test the fuse in your mains entrance.
PA4TIM, i read the specs.... but it shows 300 VRMS... i am not sure if rms is what i see in my multimeter or its PP.....Because i always thought that IF i have an AC line of X volts, it would not be possible to have more than X volts DC, but in fact  after the diode bridge it shows around 340 DC for 220v AC input.... ( sorry i am not electrical engineer , just learned by myself and still a lot to learn..)
 

Offline phil

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2014, 03:36:00 pm »
Your meter shows RMS. Power line is a sine, that means the amplitude changes over time: From the positive peak to the negative peak. This difference is called Vpp.
AC RMS equals the DC voltage you would need to get the same power through a resistor (over time). Thats because the power changes with voltage, and AC is a constantly chaning voltage - that means power also changes all the time.
If you want to calculate your Vpp: Vpp=sqrt(2)*Vrms.

For 230VAC: 230V * 1.41 = ~325V

Keep in mind that a rectifier with filter caps will convert the negative half wave to a positive one and charge up any caps attatched to it. As long as you don't load them down too much, they will go up to Vpp. Thats why you see ~340V on them.

Phil
 

Offline tiagobarachoTopic starter

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2014, 03:53:28 pm »
Your meter shows RMS. Power line is a sine, that means the amplitude changes over time: From the positive peak to the negative peak. This difference is called Vpp.
AC RMS equals the DC voltage you would need to get the same power through a resistor (over time). Thats because the power changes with voltage, and AC is a constantly chaning voltage - that means power also changes all the time.
If you want to calculate your Vpp: Vpp=sqrt(2)*Vrms.

For 230VAC: 230V * 1.41 = ~325V

Keep in mind that a rectifier with filter caps will convert the negative half wave to a positive one and charge up any caps attatched to it. As long as you don't load them down too much, they will go up to Vpp. Thats why you see ~340V on them.

Phil
I thought that the AC 230v would be a sine wave with lower point - 115v, and upper point 115v, so the difference is 230 v Ac.... After rectifier, would be the same because when the wave is on positive, two diodes makes the current flow in one direction, and when the wave is on negative, the other two diodes keeps the current flowing in the same direction... and the cap is need to filter this switch point where two diodes stop working the other two begins... I just dont really get why it gets to 330-340 v DC......

About the scope then.. I cannot use the probes to test any rectified line D in devices working at 220 AC v ? i have to buy a new probe or there is a device to atach to the BNC connector to make it from 10x to 100x ?
Thanks
 

Offline phil

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2014, 04:31:43 pm »
If you want to calculate your Vpp: Vpp=sqrt(2)*Vrms.

Sorry, my bad. I meant Vp, not Vpp. Vpp is the voltage difference between the positive peak (~325V) and the negative peak (~ -325V). As such, it's about 650V.
A rectifier converts the negative half wave to a positive one, so your Vpp after the rectifier is the same as Vp on the AC side.

We call it 230V because the reference is ground. In reality, the voltage switches between +325V relative to ground and -325V relative to ground.
 

Offline SArepairman

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2014, 09:18:18 pm »
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electronic/rectbr.html


Have a glance at that. You have a sine wave, then you rectify it, so all your peaks are on one side. Then you smush down the wave form with a smoothing capacitor.

Once you look at the pictures the voltage level differences will be obvious

So, your probe attenuates 10 times in 10:1 mode, theoretically this means you can put 3000 volts into your probe and your oscilloscope will still be ok. However, the problem is that the probe would require special design to withstand these voltages. The insulation in your probe and the capacitors must be able to withstand 3000 volts, if you tried this with an ordinary probe it is likely that something would fry (I would guess the capacitor would short out).


You can get something that can work at a few thousand volts cheaply on ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=high+voltage+probe&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR6.TRC1.A0.Xhigh+voltage+probe+oscilloscope&_nkw=high+voltage+probe+oscilloscope&_sacat=0

However the nice really high voltage stuff will be built very weird, not just thick insulators. There is one tektronix probe that features a gas insulator, there is some kind of freon in the probe that works well as a high voltage insulator and does not effect the bandwidth of the probe much.

As for your question, your multimeter in AC mode will measure RMS. As to how accurate it is, this depends on frequency and crest factor. There are different techniques for determining RMS measurements,

1) make the assumption that the input waveform is a sine wave, do a Vpp measurement and then convert this to RMS using the formula using a microprocessor, cheap, fast, but it is inaccurate with anything but a sine wave
2) various analog conversion methods (squaring it and averaging it, there are a few variations on this method)
3) record it on an oscilloscope and do it mathematically
4) thermal

Your multimeter if its mega cheap will do #1, your oscilloscope will do #3, your medium to high end multimeter will do some variation of 2. Different methods have different trade offs (some might give a faster response at the cost of accuracy, others may break down at higher frequencies due to nonlinearities in the nonlinear analog circuits, and they will have different accuracies at different crest factors (how fucked up the wave form is = crest factor).

The ultimate judge of RMS voltage is a thermal meter, this essentially uses your signal to heat a DC to high frequency resistor and measures the temperature change in the resistor. This method will not lie to you and it will work on really screwed up wave forms, including noise, accurately. It is not fast to respond however as you need to actually heat something up. Furthermore the bandwidth will be much wider with a thermal meter. You will notice attenuation MUCH MUCH sooner in an analog RMS circuit rater then a thermal one (your meter will sometimes have 3 db rating, the frequency at which a sine wave will by off its real RMS value by 30%, just like your oscilloscope does).



As for converting RMS to Vpp, sometimes its really tricky. Consider the VPP of this waveform and its RMS reading:


You need to hook up an oscillsocope :p
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 09:58:56 pm by SArepairman »
 

Offline tiagobarachoTopic starter

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2014, 11:06:33 pm »
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electronic/rectbr.html


Have a glance at that. You have a sine wave, then you rectify it, so all your peaks are on one side. Then you smush down the wave form with a smoothing capacitor.

Once you look at the pictures the voltage level differences will be obvious

So, your probe attenuates 10 times in 10:1 mode, theoretically this means you can put 3000 volts into your probe and your oscilloscope will still be ok. However, the problem is that the probe would require special design to withstand these voltages. The insulation in your probe and the capacitors must be able to withstand 3000 volts, if you tried this with an ordinary probe it is likely that something would fry (I would guess the capacitor would short out).


You can get something that can work at a few thousand volts cheaply on ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=high+voltage+probe&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR6.TRC1.A0.Xhigh+voltage+probe+oscilloscope&_nkw=high+voltage+probe+oscilloscope&_sacat=0

However the nice really high voltage stuff will be built very weird, not just thick insulators. There is one tektronix probe that features a gas insulator, there is some kind of freon in the probe that works well as a high voltage insulator and does not effect the bandwidth of the probe much.

As for your question, your multimeter in AC mode will measure RMS. As to how accurate it is, this depends on frequency and crest factor. There are different techniques for determining RMS measurements,

1) make the assumption that the input waveform is a sine wave, do a Vpp measurement and then convert this to RMS using the formula using a microprocessor, cheap, fast, but it is inaccurate with anything but a sine wave
2) various analog conversion methods (squaring it and averaging it, there are a few variations on this method)
3) record it on an oscilloscope and do it mathematically
4) thermal

Your multimeter if its mega cheap will do #1, your oscilloscope will do #3, your medium to high end multimeter will do some variation of 2. Different methods have different trade offs (some might give a faster response at the cost of accuracy, others may break down at higher frequencies due to nonlinearities in the nonlinear analog circuits, and they will have different accuracies at different crest factors (how fucked up the wave form is = crest factor).

The ultimate judge of RMS voltage is a thermal meter, this essentially uses your signal to heat a DC to high frequency resistor and measures the temperature change in the resistor. This method will not lie to you and it will work on really screwed up wave forms, including noise, accurately. It is not fast to respond however as you need to actually heat something up.



As for converting RMS to Vpp, sometimes its really tricky. Consider the VPP of this waveform and its RMS reading:


You need to hook up an oscillsocope :p
Mannn.. now you clarified me.... The 300 VRMS  on the scope specification  does not mean that the maximum voltage i can check with the probe is 300, but that on the scope BNC connector should arrive maximum 300 Vrms, right ?
I am not at all into high voltage... the maximum i need is just to be able to test components after the rectified bridge on 220 AC devices... and since i checked on the multimeter 340 volts DC after rectified i was worried the scope could not handle..
The probe that came with the rigol DS2072a is RP3300A.  this is the specs http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/RP3300A_UserGuide_EN.pdf
Its says Maximum input CAT II 300VAC .... Does it mean it only can be used for AC probing ? I did not find any info about DC ..
What i finally want to be able to do is get a LCD TV  power supply and be able to probe around and be safe.... Since i saw the 300rms limit, i was wondering if i needed another probe or something else..Do I  need to get one DC probe  ?
Thanks very much

 

Offline kg4arn

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Offline tiagobarachoTopic starter

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2014, 02:59:26 am »
Health insurance = differential probe

http://www.probemaster.com/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=289&osCsid=8c32a1eb741884fe7972443e0bfda081
Using this differential probe, i would limit my scope  to be a 25 mhz scope? ... man.. that thing this expensive !!!
My full scope was 788 with shipping.. and the 100mhz probe 700 v is 895 USD..... i have not more money to spend on it......
 

Offline PA4TIM

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2014, 08:40:46 am »
TV inverters can be a quick way to kill a scope. I use HV probes for that (and if I'm not sure about voltage I first use  my 547 with a CA plugin that is very hard to kill)

The voltage of a starting inverter, or trying to start, can be over several kV and while  running around 500V.

Diff probes are expensive, even second hand. And not every diff probe is a HV diff probe. Most are not. Jim Wiliams has written an app note about inverters for CCFL. He gives lots of information about measuring inverters and makes a diff probe amplifier for this that uses two of these Tek HV probes. And he had all the gear you can dream of, so if he makes these for use on his hard to kill analog Teks, you do not want to probe around with the standard, not very accurate speced probes of you scope.

Measuring DC after a recifier with a DMM in DC is no problem. DC will be indeed around 350V in 230V systems. But if the capacitor is dead you have a pulsing voltage and most multimeters then give the avarage voltage and that will be much lower, that is, if the CMRR is high enough for measuring nearby RFI producing inverters.

www.pa4tim.nl my collection measurement gear and experiments Also lots of info about network analyse
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Offline tiagobarachoTopic starter

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2014, 11:47:06 am »
TV inverters can be a quick way to kill a scope. I use HV probes for that (and if I'm not sure about voltage I first use  my 547 with a CA plugin that is very hard to kill)

The voltage of a starting inverter, or trying to start, can be over several kV and while  running around 500V.

Diff probes are expensive, even second hand. And not every diff probe is a HV diff probe. Most are not. Jim Wiliams has written an app note about inverters for CCFL. He gives lots of information about measuring inverters and makes a diff probe amplifier for this that uses two of these Tek HV probes. And he had all the gear you can dream of, so if he makes these for use on his hard to kill analog Teks, you do not want to probe around with the standard, not very accurate speced probes of you scope.

Measuring DC after a recifier with a DMM in DC is no problem. DC will be indeed around 350V in 230V systems. But if the capacitor is dead you have a pulsing voltage and most multimeters then give the avarage voltage and that will be much lower, that is, if the CMRR is high enough for measuring nearby RFI producing inverters.


I am not going to test iverters output....
I just wanted to probe pwm power supply....never the high voltage side of inverters....
The probe that came with just says maximum of 300rms Ac .... Does it means i cannot use on dc?
 

Offline lewis

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2014, 11:59:32 am »
Has anyone mentioned the scope's ground?

The oscilloscope probe ground is connected to mains earth. If you connect the probe ground to the negative of rectified mains... BANG. Forget about the probe tip, the ground is the bugger.

Always use a differential probe if working on non-isolated mains voltages and are not absolutely sure the voltages you're measuring are referenced to mains earth. They are expensive, but at least you don't necessarily die. There are some here: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/test-measurement/oscilloscopes-accessories/oscilloscope-probes/?searchTerm=differential+probe&sort-by=P_breakPrice1&sort-order=asc&pn=1
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Offline kg4arn

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2014, 12:33:27 pm »
Has anyone mentioned the scope's ground?

The oscilloscope probe ground is connected to mains earth. If you connect the probe ground to the negative of rectified mains... BANG. Forget about the probe tip, the ground is the bugger.

Always use a differential probe if working on non-isolated mains voltages and are not absolutely sure the voltages you're measuring are referenced to mains earth. They are expensive, but at least you don't necessarily die. There are some here: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/test-measurement/oscilloscopes-accessories/oscilloscope-probes/?searchTerm=differential+probe&sort-by=P_breakPrice1&sort-order=asc&pn=1

Well put.  Like most of us when we start out, money is in short supply.  But it is the beginner who is the most likely to make an expensive or fatal mistake.

My advice to the OP fwiw:  If you are truly inexperienced and you cannot afford to do it the "safest" way, then don't do it at all until you have the proper experience or you can afford it.
 

Offline tiagobarachoTopic starter

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2014, 12:47:14 pm »
Has anyone mentioned the scope's ground?

The oscilloscope probe ground is connected to mains earth. If you connect the probe ground to the negative of rectified mains... BANG. Forget about the probe tip, the ground is the bugger.

Always use a differential probe if working on non-isolated mains voltages and are not absolutely sure the voltages you're measuring are referenced to mains earth. They are expensive, but at least you don't necessarily die. There are some here: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/test-measurement/oscilloscopes-accessories/oscilloscope-probes/?searchTerm=differential+probe&sort-by=P_breakPrice1&sort-order=asc&pn=1
I know.....
The most affordable differential probes are 25 mhz, around 300 and something dollars....... My scope is 70 and can be hacked to 200mhz....
Anyone have any idea of how many MHZ the power switch from LCD TVs or computer power supply operates?( I mean the frequency the Mosfet switchs ?)
You guys convinced me... I would like to buy one... but i cannot aford the 100 mhz version... and if i dont need on those power supply.. i would the the 25 mhz version for around 300 usd....... but it that enough?
 

Offline PA4TIM

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2014, 01:02:43 pm »

But be very carefull when measuring mains with a scope. Use an isolation transformer or a differential probe. The scope ground is connected to the ground of the probe, so if you clip the ground probe on a live line you use your scope to test the fuse in your mains entrance.

Yep, someone dit mention ground  ;) but better twice because measuring mains with a scope and not enough knowledge is a potential deadly combination.

TS:
If the scope or probe specs are not clear you have a problem. You will never know what they "forgot" to state. Most times they state AC pp and DC.
For instance I grabbed a manual that I had on hand from a Tektronix plugin and that states, voltage 600V combined DC + AC peak, or 600 V AC peak to peak. So that is very clear. Do not go over 600V. And then there are statements about max voltage and frequency.

In a case of a scope it is not about the input power (except in the 50 Ohm position) but  pure about peak voltage because things like caps can not handle it or input resistors in the attenuator, swtiches etc  have a max voltage or ander isolation related thigs.

If they tell it is 300Vrms then I do not know what they mean. 300VDC must be possible but for the rest ???? . I think to play it save and keep 300Vpp as the max.  300Vrms on its own does not tell much for the Vpp. The formula Vpp = Vrms x 2 x squareoot(2) is for perfect sinewaves only and a scope can show all sorts of signals. For instance 300VAC with a 100V DC offset. The voltage and current is switchers is far from a nice sinewave.

Here you see a trace from 230VAC mains  Voltage and current  draw by a switching powersupply.


The yellow trace is current. Look at the Vrms of that. If this was Voltage the Vpp would have been much more as the Vrms x 2 x 1.4.

I know that what you need is to expensive and that is no problem as long as you stay away from those applications. It is like jumping parachute, if you think that parachute is to expensive it is not wise to jump with an umbrella as a parachute.
Your scope, your probes and your knowledge are not suited or made for mains or HV applications. The things you need are expensive, if they build your scope so it would survive that, it would have been much more expensive. These scopers are for low voltage student or hobby use and everything that can makes them more expensive is left out. Just like cheap multimeters lack blast shels around a fuse, the special fuses, mov's and more HV high energy safety things. Budget scopes are not an other class, they do the same thing as with multimeters. They are sold mainly on price, bang for bucks etc. And you know, that does not tell a thing. Very bad for even less money is still a very good bang for buck ratio, but still can be garbage.

Just measure behind a mains to 24V or 12V transformer. It is not ideal but a lot safer.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 01:06:50 pm by PA4TIM »
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Offline tiagobarachoTopic starter

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2014, 01:27:08 pm »

But be very carefull when measuring mains with a scope. Use an isolation transformer or a differential probe. The scope ground is connected to the ground of the probe, so if you clip the ground probe on a live line you use your scope to test the fuse in your mains entrance.

Yep, someone dit mention ground  ;) but better twice because measuring mains with a scope and not enough knowledge is a potential deadly combination.


PA4TIM, my scope is a Rigol Ds2072A...  think its not at all bad and cheap scope... Dave did a teardown on a ds2000 serie and show how good they are...
I know a scope around 788 usd cannot be compared to 5000 USD scopes but it´s not those cheap chinese brand like many that there is.. Its a Rigol...
As i said before.. i will never work on hig voltage stuff , more than the power supply for home appliances that here work on 220v ac... mostly I will use it on the low voltage side.... but i may need to probe the live side, as for knowing if standby mosfet are working, or if signals are ok for those mosfets...

As i just said... you guys convinced me to buy a differential probe... i just dont want now to buy a cheap one and will not work well, or buy a too expensive one that will be a overkill for my use...
Do you think 25 mhz is enough this kind of job ? like this one  http://www.probemaster.com/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=289&osCsid=8c32a1eb741884fe7972443e0bfda081
Any specific recommendation for a good differential probe bot not so expensive.
Thanks
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 01:40:26 pm by tiagobaracho »
 

Offline lewis

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2014, 01:56:12 pm »
I know.....
The most affordable differential probes are 25 mhz, around 300 and something dollars....... My scope is 70 and can be hacked to 200mhz....
Anyone have any idea of how many MHZ the power switch from LCD TVs or computer power supply operates?( I mean the frequency the Mosfet switchs ?)
You guys convinced me... I would like to buy one... but i cannot aford the 100 mhz version... and if i dont need on those power supply.. i would the the 25 mhz version for around 300 usd....... but it that enough?

The switching waveform will be somewhere between 50 and 250kHz for a standard SMPS like this, and to see the signal reliably on a scope you need at least 20 times that in terms of the scope and probe bandwidth. So 5MHz bandwidth sounds enough. But any nasties on the waveform, such as ringing, can be many hundreds of kilohertz, up into the 10MHz region. Either way, a 25MHz diff probe will be more than adequate to see what's going on for general troubleshooting. (Even if you do get ringing at 10MHz, it is generally sinusoidal and will likely have very few harmonics above the probe bandwidth.)

Don't forget that a probe is usable beyond its rated bandwidth because the bandwidth is generally where a signal is 3dB down on the roll-off curve. A 25MHz probe will still show something at 30MHz as there is no brick wall cutoff, but it won't be perfectly accurate.

In summary, 100MHz is best, but 25MHz will be fine. I haven't used the probe in your link, but it looks decent. Don't use it with the mains adapter, run it from batteries for the best noise performance.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 02:02:20 pm by lewis »
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Offline tiagobarachoTopic starter

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Re: High voltage probes for rectified 220v AC?
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2014, 02:41:41 pm »
Hello tiagobaracho - in order to protect yourself and your DSO you certainly need a differential probe.
These differential probes are needed for safety reasons, they isolate the chassis of your scope with the AC grid coming from the input probe(-s). In my homelab I am using the model GE8115 from GMW (sold under different brand names HZ115,...) and you need to do a search on different websites as the price can vary a lot for the same (rebranded) probes, GMW also have a cheaper model that only accepts 700Vpp - which is just sufficient for your application (230Vrms x 2.83 < 700Vpp) - that P/N is GE8100 (HZ100) ... - these are excellent probes.
There is also another popular model from Protek Taiwan - P/N GDP-025 sold under different names (GWInstek) and even available on eBAY.

http://www.testenmeetwinkel.nl/nl/producten/accessoires?page=2&sort=
http://www.testenmeetwinkel.nl/nl/producten/accessoires?page=3&sort=
http://www.conrad.be/ce/nl/product/120791/GMW-GE-8115-Differentieelaftastkop-GE-8115-Deelverhouding-1100-11000-bandbreedte-30-MHz

I hope this is useful info.

thanks very much
I guess that one of this i will buy
http://www.tequipment.net/CalTestCT25932.html
http://www.tequipment.net/CalTestCT25931.html
ANd this Instek : http://www.tequipment.net/InstekGDP-025.html?v=0
.. it have 6% of EEVblog discount ..the difference seems to be 10x /100x on the 25932 and 20x/200x on the 25931..
I guess the 10X/100x is enough and more sensitive for my range, right ?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 02:51:06 pm by tiagobaracho »
 


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