Author Topic: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope  (Read 12889 times)

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Online tggzzz

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2023, 03:31:34 pm »
The MSO5074 is at the same price level, excelling only in the proposed 8G sampling that might have a marginal advantage at the max 350MHz on a single channel.
This is not correct. Signal detail at higher frequencies depends on the input bandwidth, nothing else. So it is a frontend feature only.

Yes.

Quote
The sample rate on the other hand has to be twice the max. input frequency in order to satisfy Nyquist.

No. Or rather the sample rate has to be at least twice the bandwidth of the signal to satisfy Nyquist[1].

I have a 1972 portable scope (which can be stored underwater!) which takes one sample every 75µs (i.e. 13kS/s), and has a bandwidth of >5GHz; it measures risetimes of <0.14ns.

Back in the 80s I used a top-of-the-range HP 1GHz scope, which sampled at 25MS/s.

Nowadays you can see that principle in action in various scopes with modes called various things like Equivalent Time Sampling, and in the mixer of every SDR dongle (multiGHz inputs sampled at ~10MS/s).

[1] Standard interview question... You have an audio signal transmitted on a 10MHz carrier. What is the minimum sampling rate you can use?

Again with that.
Nobody cares for repetitive sampling scopes. We are talking about real time samplings scopes.

Many many people care about repetitive sampling scopes. One obvious question: if nobody cares, why do all the main manufacturers of professional scopes have modes based upon repetitive sampling? Current Keysight literature answers that :
Quote
Advantages of Equivalent Time Sampling Scopes
•    Lower sampling rate allows higher resolution ADC conversion
•    Wider bandwidth
•    Lower noise floor
•    Lower intrinsic jitter
•    Can include front end optical modules
•    Can achieve solutions at a reduced cost

Note the reduced cost point. Samplers are orders of magnitude cheaper than ADCs with the same resolution.

Another point was given by David Hess: avoiding Gibbs Phenomenon artifacts https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscopes-what-happened-to-equivalent-time-sampling/msg1781960/#msg1781960

And another: resolving short time intervals e.g. a 100MHz/3.5ns risetime analogue scope easily resolving <1ns intervals. DSOs use ETS for that. timehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscopes-what-happened-to-equivalent-time-sampling/msg1783850/#msg1783850

I suggest you (re)read that thread.

Quote
And you are wrong: repetitive sampling scopes EFFECTIVE sample rate is defined by 1/t of sampling aperture time and fine resolution timing of taking sample in regards to trigger timing.
Fact that it takes samples sparsely is of no influence to Nyquist.

You are going to have to get your story straight.

First you claim that "nobody is interested in repetitive sampling rates", and then you try to demonstrate that by using a parameter that is mainly relevant to repetitive sampling!

Quote
There is a reason nobody cares about repetitive sampling scopes anymore (outside special applications).

That could only be correct if you were using "special application" to mean "any application I don't personally use". That illustrates more about you than about scopes' capabilities and uses.

Quote
On your interview question, answer is more than 20 something MS/s. Because you didn't specify you want to down convert RF and extract audio you need to satisfy Nyquist to grab full data...

You just failed the interview test.

Provided the sampling aperture is sufficiently small, you only need to capture at, say, 44kS/s. Downsampling is not required.

Quote
We are talking about oscilloscopes here, not radio receivers or software radio.... Stop confusing people with ortogonal information...

I gave examples of high-end professional scopes, and amplified the key points by reference to other technologies based on the same principles.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2023, 03:58:55 pm »
The MSO5074 is at the same price level, excelling only in the proposed 8G sampling that might have a marginal advantage at the max 350MHz on a single channel.
This is not correct. Signal detail at higher frequencies depends on the input bandwidth, nothing else. So it is a frontend feature only.

Yes.

Quote
The sample rate on the other hand has to be twice the max. input frequency in order to satisfy Nyquist.

No. Or rather the sample rate has to be at least twice the bandwidth of the signal to satisfy Nyquist[1].

I have a 1972 portable scope (which can be stored underwater!) which takes one sample every 75µs (i.e. 13kS/s), and has a bandwidth of >5GHz; it measures risetimes of <0.14ns.

Back in the 80s I used a top-of-the-range HP 1GHz scope, which sampled at 25MS/s.

Nowadays you can see that principle in action in various scopes with modes called various things like Equivalent Time Sampling, and in the mixer of every SDR dongle (multiGHz inputs sampled at ~10MS/s).

[1] Standard interview question... You have an audio signal transmitted on a 10MHz carrier. What is the minimum sampling rate you can use?

Again with that.
Nobody cares for repetitive sampling scopes. We are talking about real time samplings scopes.

Many many people care about repetitive sampling scopes. One obvious question: if nobody cares, why do all the main manufacturers of professional scopes have modes based upon repetitive sampling? Current Keysight literature answers that :
Quote
Advantages of Equivalent Time Sampling Scopes
•    Lower sampling rate allows higher resolution ADC conversion
•    Wider bandwidth
•    Lower noise floor
•    Lower intrinsic jitter
•    Can include front end optical modules
•    Can achieve solutions at a reduced cost

Note the reduced cost point. Samplers are orders of magnitude cheaper than ADCs with the same resolution.

Another point was given by David Hess: avoiding Gibbs Phenomenon artifacts https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscopes-what-happened-to-equivalent-time-sampling/msg1781960/#msg1781960

And another: resolving short time intervals e.g. a 100MHz/3.5ns risetime analogue scope easily resolving <1ns intervals. DSOs use ETS for that. timehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscopes-what-happened-to-equivalent-time-sampling/msg1783850/#msg1783850

I suggest you (re)read that thread.

Quote
And you are wrong: repetitive sampling scopes EFFECTIVE sample rate is defined by 1/t of sampling aperture time and fine resolution timing of taking sample in regards to trigger timing.
Fact that it takes samples sparsely is of no influence to Nyquist.

You are going to have to get your story straight.

First you claim that "nobody is interested in repetitive sampling rates", and then you try to demonstrate that by using a parameter that is mainly relevant to repetitive sampling!

Quote
There is a reason nobody cares about repetitive sampling scopes anymore (outside special applications).

That could only be correct if you were using "special application" to mean "any application I don't personally use". That illustrates more about you than about scopes' capabilities and uses.

Quote
On your interview question, answer is more than 20 something MS/s. Because you didn't specify you want to down convert RF and extract audio you need to satisfy Nyquist to grab full data...

You just failed the interview test.

Provided the sampling aperture is sufficiently small, you only need to capture at, say, 44kS/s. Downsampling is not required.

Quote
We are talking about oscilloscopes here, not radio receivers or software radio.... Stop confusing people with ortogonal information...

I gave examples of high-end professional scopes, and amplified the key points by reference to other technologies based on the same principles.

Omg...
 

Offline williamlee

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2023, 04:03:19 pm »
Is it because 99.9% of oscilloscope user doesn`t need the "eye diagram"? so, the sampling rate is quite ok for 1G or 2G?   
The "real-time" still belongs to the analog scope, right? why does the digital scope need the "sampling rate"? because of the "ADC"?
My point of view that MSO5000 is the best C/P value for 90% of applications especially for logic is better value. It makes sure that SDS2000XP also good for the C/P value.  ;D ;D

If MSO5000 has 50-ohm support and the same frond-end which is like 1054z......
If SDS2000XP has 4G sa/S......
If the R/S, Tek, and LeCroy prices are very very close to Rigol and Siglent ...... too many dreams |O :-DD
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2023, 04:42:16 pm »
The MSO5074 is at the same price level, excelling only in the proposed 8G sampling that might have a marginal advantage at the max 350MHz on a single channel.
This is not correct. Signal detail at higher frequencies depends on the input bandwidth, nothing else. So it is a frontend feature only.

Yes.

Quote
The sample rate on the other hand has to be twice the max. input frequency in order to satisfy Nyquist.

No. Or rather the sample rate has to be at least twice the bandwidth of the signal to satisfy Nyquist[1].

I have a 1972 portable scope (which can be stored underwater!) which takes one sample every 75µs (i.e. 13kS/s), and has a bandwidth of >5GHz; it measures risetimes of <0.14ns.

Back in the 80s I used a top-of-the-range HP 1GHz scope, which sampled at 25MS/s.

Nowadays you can see that principle in action in various scopes with modes called various things like Equivalent Time Sampling, and in the mixer of every SDR dongle (multiGHz inputs sampled at ~10MS/s).

[1] Standard interview question... You have an audio signal transmitted on a 10MHz carrier. What is the minimum sampling rate you can use?

Again with that.
Nobody cares for repetitive sampling scopes. We are talking about real time samplings scopes.

Many many people care about repetitive sampling scopes. One obvious question: if nobody cares, why do all the main manufacturers of professional scopes have modes based upon repetitive sampling? Current Keysight literature answers that :
Quote
Advantages of Equivalent Time Sampling Scopes
•    Lower sampling rate allows higher resolution ADC conversion
•    Wider bandwidth
•    Lower noise floor
•    Lower intrinsic jitter
•    Can include front end optical modules
•    Can achieve solutions at a reduced cost

Note the reduced cost point. Samplers are orders of magnitude cheaper than ADCs with the same resolution.

Another point was given by David Hess: avoiding Gibbs Phenomenon artifacts https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscopes-what-happened-to-equivalent-time-sampling/msg1781960/#msg1781960

And another: resolving short time intervals e.g. a 100MHz/3.5ns risetime analogue scope easily resolving <1ns intervals. DSOs use ETS for that. timehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscopes-what-happened-to-equivalent-time-sampling/msg1783850/#msg1783850

I suggest you (re)read that thread.

Quote
And you are wrong: repetitive sampling scopes EFFECTIVE sample rate is defined by 1/t of sampling aperture time and fine resolution timing of taking sample in regards to trigger timing.
Fact that it takes samples sparsely is of no influence to Nyquist.

You are going to have to get your story straight.

First you claim that "nobody is interested in repetitive sampling rates", and then you try to demonstrate that by using a parameter that is mainly relevant to repetitive sampling!

Quote
There is a reason nobody cares about repetitive sampling scopes anymore (outside special applications).

That could only be correct if you were using "special application" to mean "any application I don't personally use". That illustrates more about you than about scopes' capabilities and uses.

Quote
On your interview question, answer is more than 20 something MS/s. Because you didn't specify you want to down convert RF and extract audio you need to satisfy Nyquist to grab full data...

You just failed the interview test.

Provided the sampling aperture is sufficiently small, you only need to capture at, say, 44kS/s. Downsampling is not required.

Quote
We are talking about oscilloscopes here, not radio receivers or software radio.... Stop confusing people with ortogonal information...

I gave examples of high-end professional scopes, and amplified the key points by reference to other technologies based on the same principles.

Omg...

A revealing response to the technical points.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2023, 05:07:07 pm »
Is it because 99.9% of oscilloscope user doesn`t need the "eye diagram"? so, the sampling rate is quite ok for 1G or 2G?   
The "real-time" still belongs to the analog scope, right? why does the digital scope need the "sampling rate"? because of the "ADC"?
My point of view that MSO5000 is the best C/P value for 90% of applications especially for logic is better value. It makes sure that SDS2000XP also good for the C/P value.  ;D ;D

If MSO5000 has 50-ohm support and the same frond-end which is like 1054z......
If SDS2000XP has 4G sa/S......
If the R/S, Tek, and LeCroy prices are very very close to Rigol and Siglent ...... too many dreams |O :-DD

There is indeed a lot of overlap in the capability of different classes of instrument. A good engineer knows not only how to use each tool to its best advantage, but also where a tool is insufficient and a different tool should be used.

Where digital systems are concerned, often a scope isn't the best tool. Once a scope has been used to ensure signal integrity[1], often it is better to flip into the digital signal domain by using logic analysers, protocol analysers, and printf() statements.

That's particularly true with low-end scopes, some of which I'm told only process what's on the screen and ignore all the captured information that's off the screen. Even very cheap (<<cost of a scope) logic analysers and protocol analysers can produce better results.

As for cost, new modern scopes cannot be afforded by many individuals. Nonetheless, good Tek/HP scopes (and other tools) are available at remarkably low prices, and - in conjunction with other tools - be used for many complex cases. (Examples: I get 350MHz Tek scopes for £50, 21GHz HP/Tek Spectrum Analysers for £350, and bus pirate protocol analysers and generic logic analysers cost ~£30)

[1] i.e. to ensure the analogue waveform will be correctly interpreted by the receiver as a digital signal. A classic tool to do that is, of course, the eye diagram.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline Performa01

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2023, 05:14:36 pm »
Quote
The sample rate on the other hand has to be twice the max. input frequency in order to satisfy Nyquist.

No. Or rather the sample rate has to be at least twice the bandwidth of the signal to satisfy Nyquist[1].
So you are saying "no", only to use the following sentence to repeat what I said in slightly different words?

Oh – did I forget to say "at least"? In a statement where I wanted to stress the fact that oversampling doesn't provide any additional information?

And what is the difference between "max. input frequency" and "bandwidth of  the signal"? There is only a difference if we presume that we're not interested in the entire input signal, but only a part of it [1] – which certainly would not be a standard use case.


I have a 1972 portable scope (which can be stored underwater!) which takes one sample every 75µs (i.e. 13kS/s), and has a bandwidth of >5GHz; it measures risetimes of <0.14ns.

Back in the 80s I used a top-of-the-range HP 1GHz scope, which sampled at 25MS/s.

Nowadays you can see that principle in action in various scopes with modes called various things like Equivalent Time Sampling, and in the mixer of every SDR dongle (multiGHz inputs sampled at ~10MS/s).
And what has this to do with the topic discussed here? The equivalent sample rate has to satisfy Nyquist no matter what. And thankfully, nobody has to resort to the ETS crouch for bandwidths up to a couple of GHz anymore nowadays.


[1] Standard interview question... You have an audio signal transmitted on a 10MHz carrier. What is the minimum sampling rate you can use?
Funny that you feel like asking that question in reply to my post of all things.

[1] I have demonstrated several times, how to analyze narrowband signals by means of down-conversion by undersampling, e.g. here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hd-12bit-(published-for-chinese-domestic-market-only)/msg4320658/#msg4320658


… so what was the intention of your reply? Just to say "no" … or did you want to add some confusion for those who are less familiar with modern DSOs?

 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2023, 05:29:32 pm »
Is it because 99.9% of oscilloscope user doesn`t need the "eye diagram"? so, the sampling rate is quite ok for 1G or 2G?   
The "real-time" still belongs to the analog scope, right? why does the digital scope need the "sampling rate"? because of the "ADC"?
My point of view that MSO5000 is the best C/P value for 90% of applications especially for logic is better value. It makes sure that SDS2000XP also good for the C/P value.  ;D ;D
In the end neither a good allround tools though.

Quote
If the R/S, Tek, and LeCroy prices are very very close to Rigol and Siglent ...
then the latter would offer you good allround tools like the A brands. Engineering takes time which equates to money and thus their products will cost the same. Just note how Siglent oscilloscope prices keep going up with the number of features they add. While Rigol keeps competing on prices and releases half baked products hoping the revenue might pay for ongoing engineering efforts (or not). The differentiation is all in firmware / software, the hardware costs are pretty much the same for all manufacturers.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2023, 05:31:10 pm by nctnico »
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Offline porter

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2023, 05:30:29 pm »
Too bad that Keysight and Tektronix oscilloscpes are no longer part of these discussions.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2023, 05:32:01 pm »
A nice short summary/explanation about the different types of sampling in DSOs (or DPOs) we can find here:

XYZs of Oscilloscopes from Tektronix

(It´s a pdf)
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Online Martin72

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2023, 05:32:55 pm »
Too bad that Keysight and Tektronix oscilloscpes are no longer part of these discussions.

In the mentioned pricerange it makes the same sense as talking about lecroy scopes.
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Online nctnico

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #60 on: April 09, 2023, 05:34:16 pm »
Too bad that Keysight and Tektronix oscilloscpes are no longer part of these discussions.
That is mainly because they don't have many products in the US $1000 price range that aren't cut down too much. Still, in a professional setting I'd buy an A brand oscilloscope (and many other types of complex equipment) any time of the day.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #61 on: April 09, 2023, 05:44:25 pm »
Quote
The sample rate on the other hand has to be twice the max. input frequency in order to satisfy Nyquist.

No. Or rather the sample rate has to be at least twice the bandwidth of the signal to satisfy Nyquist[1].
So you are saying "no", only to use the following sentence to repeat what I said in slightly different words?

Oh – did I forget to say "at least"? In a statement where I wanted to stress the fact that oversampling doesn't provide any additional information?

And what is the difference between "max. input frequency" and "bandwidth of  the signal"? There is only a difference if we presume that we're not interested in the entire input signal, but only a part of it [1] – which certainly would not be a standard use case.

The difference, as I'm sure you are aware, is that the "signal" needs to be carefully defined when considering the Nyquist frequency. See the audio on 10MHz carrier example :)

Beginners often don't understand the difference, and too often experienced people don't either - as we've seen in this thread!

Quote
I have a 1972 portable scope (which can be stored underwater!) which takes one sample every 75µs (i.e. 13kS/s), and has a bandwidth of >5GHz; it measures risetimes of <0.14ns.

Back in the 80s I used a top-of-the-range HP 1GHz scope, which sampled at 25MS/s.

Nowadays you can see that principle in action in various scopes with modes called various things like Equivalent Time Sampling, and in the mixer of every SDR dongle (multiGHz inputs sampled at ~10MS/s).
And what has this to do with the topic discussed here? The equivalent sample rate has to satisfy Nyquist no matter what. And thankfully, nobody has to resort to the ETS crouch for bandwidths up to a couple of GHz anymore nowadays.

Last week there was an old 1GHz Tek scope auctioned. It went for £1250+35%, which is out of my range. So, yes, some of us do have to resort to ETS - and with skill and imagination we manage to find ways to achieve our ends with tools that many regard as "inadequate".

Quote
[1] Standard interview question... You have an audio signal transmitted on a 10MHz carrier. What is the minimum sampling rate you can use?
Funny that you feel like asking that question in reply to my post of all things.

[1] I have demonstrated several times, how to analyze narrowband signals by means of down-conversion by undersampling, e.g. here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hd-12bit-(published-for-chinese-domestic-market-only)/msg4320658/#msg4320658

… so what was the intention of your reply? Just to say "no" … or did you want to add some confusion for those who are less familiar with modern DSOs?

To point out that the number of samples/second is a relatively unimportant metric of a scope's performance and usefulness. As you know, front end bandwidth is far more important.

But too many beginners (and apparently experienced people) focus on the sampling rate and think that 1GS/s is automatically better than 250MS/s. My examples are designed to highlight the orthogonality of Hz and S/s.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online nctnico

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #62 on: April 09, 2023, 05:47:37 pm »
But too many beginners (and apparently experienced people) focus on the sampling rate and think that 1GS/s is automatically better than 250MS/s.
For a general purpose oscilloscope used for measurements up to 200 to 300 MHz that is simply true. Any reasonable new DSO you can buy nowadays supports at least 1Gs/s for at least 1 channel. Beyond that you can start to weigh things like budget versus requirements but at that point you are looking at measurements that are more specialistic.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2023, 05:49:50 pm by nctnico »
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Offline wasedadoc

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #63 on: April 09, 2023, 06:48:37 pm »
Standard interview question... You have an audio signal transmitted on a 10MHz carrier. What is the minimum sampling rate you can use?
Standard answer from final year university student. "We haven't done that yet." How many times did I hear that in response to questions?
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #64 on: April 09, 2023, 06:53:37 pm »

A revealing response to the technical points.


I agree. Your post is exactly that.. Good point there...  Hence OMG... because I have nothing else to say to your endless patronizing us with wrong points...
I know what sampling scopes are, how they work and what are they used for.

That whole topic is IRRELEVANT to discussion which REAL time sampling scope in entry level price range is best choice for OP.. We don't care for another incorrect lecture about sampling scopes...

And I'm going to repeat: To look at 10 MHz modulated signal you need to obey Nyquist and sample at more than twice the frequency of highest frequency in a signal. That is 10MHz here (plus a bit more for sidebands)...  So something about 25MS/s or up...
Your questions begs that answer.

If you weren't try to be smartarse you wouldn't ask a smartarse "trick question" but a one that is technically and factually correct.
If you wanted and answer to "how can you extract audio signal from 10 MHz carrier and what sampling rate is sufficient for that" than ask that..
Idiotic questions get stupid answers....
 

Offline smallfreak

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2023, 05:32:30 pm »
It's quite interesting how my half thought comment about the probably limited use of massive oversampling did result in a well of hardcore information about that topic  8)
Lot' to learn from here, once I picked it all apart.

Provided the sampling aperture is sufficiently small, you only need to capture at, say, 44kS/s. Downsampling is not required.

My limited knowledge about that is, that this only applies to a bandwidth limited signal of this maximum frequency. So you probably imply that this audio signal is passed through a 22KHz bandpass filter before sampling - which essentially gets rid of the 10MHz carrier/noise anyway.

I always like to refer to Monty Montgomerys great video about AD/DA and "stairsteps do not exist".

I did read quite a lot here the last view days and I stumbled across quite some pictures showing a really BAD representation of "actual waveforms" near the upper bandwidth. Likely random zigzag due to idiotically drawing straight lines between the measured points. Unfortunately I was unable to find them again quickly. This have been real screenshots of the scopes in the current 1k-1.5K range. I'm sure you all know what I mean. Maybe the scopes DO support better rendering and the people doing the screenshots simply didn't know or care.

Programmers rendering signal sample points that way should be - er - corrected. There are MUCH better ways to interpolate the values between these points that more likely show the "probably true signal within the given bandwith". Before someone renders straight lines, it's better to just display the points without any interpolation.  |O It's not that much better than the "stairsteps" representation.

Maybe that was a cheap way to overcome the problem that the vertical resolution of the screen is much greater than the vertical resolution of the common 8Bit scope. But this interpolation does not have to be done in real time at 500 MHz, but in "screen time" and just for the displayed samples. In case of hold-mode any cheap processor should be able to do this calculation without notable delay.  :-\

That made me think about the 8Bit sampling resolution again. I still have a tiny DSO112A pocket scope. This too has "8bit resolution" but that does fit well with the equally tiny screen. You don't expect much from such a device. Having to fill a 10" hi-res display with the same number of samples you certainly have to do some visual tricks to NOT make the scope look like a toy.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2023, 06:20:11 pm »
Lot' to learn from here, once I picked it all apart.
...
So you probably imply that this audio signal is passed through a 22KHz bandpass filter before sampling - which essentially gets rid of the 10MHz carrier/noise anyway.

If you put a 20kHz audio signal on a 10MHz carrier, all the energy is between (roughly!) 9.98MHz and 10.02MHz. Putting that into a 10MHz+-20kHz bandpass filter changes nothing; the carrier and signal are still there. Put it into a 0-20kHz filter, and you will get nothing out :)

Quote
That made me think about the 8Bit sampling resolution again. I still have a tiny DSO112A pocket scope. This too has "8bit resolution" but that does fit well with the equally tiny screen. You don't expect much from such a device. Having to fill a 10" hi-res display with the same number of samples you certainly have to do some visual tricks to NOT make the scope look like a toy.

Firstly beware of "raw" number-of-bits figures. ADCs are subtle beasts, and ENOB (effective number of bits) is a better measure of performance. Any decent scope specification will include that.

Even if you can't see all the bits on a screen, too few bits can still cause artifacts. That is particularly noticeable if you look at the frequency domain version of the captured waveform, by doing an FFT. Too few bits will be visible as worse harmonics and increased noise floor.

BTW, it is good to see someone reading and thinking - that's a necessary starting point :) Not everybody manages it :(

Once you have gone around the loops of conceptual understanding a few times, you will begin to see that samplers and mixers can perform similar functions - not only in terms of mathematic operations, but also in electronic circuits. Not everyone persists enough to reach that level of understanding and see the beauty.

Have fun.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online Fungus

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2023, 07:10:22 pm »
I did read quite a lot here the last view days and I stumbled across quite some pictures showing a really BAD representation of "actual waveforms" near the upper bandwidth. Likely random zigzag due to idiotically drawing straight lines between the measured points. Unfortunately I was unable to find them again quickly.

Recent posts or old posts?
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2023, 08:00:54 pm »
Lot' to learn from here, once I picked it all apart.
...
So you probably imply that this audio signal is passed through a 22KHz bandpass filter before sampling - which essentially gets rid of the 10MHz carrier/noise anyway.

If you put a 20kHz audio signal on a 10MHz carrier, all the energy is between (roughly!) 9.98MHz and 10.02MHz. Putting that into a 10MHz+-20kHz bandpass filter changes nothing; the carrier and signal are still there. Put it into a 0-20kHz filter, and you will get nothing out :)

Quote
That made me think about the 8Bit sampling resolution again. I still have a tiny DSO112A pocket scope. This too has "8bit resolution" but that does fit well with the equally tiny screen. You don't expect much from such a device. Having to fill a 10" hi-res display with the same number of samples you certainly have to do some visual tricks to NOT make the scope look like a toy.

Firstly beware of "raw" number-of-bits figures. ADCs are subtle beasts, and ENOB (effective number of bits) is a better measure of performance. Any decent scope specification will include that.

Even if you can't see all the bits on a screen, too few bits can still cause artifacts. That is particularly noticeable if you look at the frequency domain version of the captured waveform, by doing an FFT. Too few bits will be visible as worse harmonics and increased noise floor.

BTW, it is good to see someone reading and thinking - that's a necessary starting point :) Not everybody manages it :(

Once you have gone around the loops of conceptual understanding a few times, you will begin to see that samplers and mixers can perform similar functions - not only in terms of mathematic operations, but also in electronic circuits. Not everyone persists enough to reach that level of understanding and see the beauty.

Have fun.

All you said here is absolutely true. If you connect 10MHz carrier AM modulated with 20 kHz audio signal all your energy will be around carrier.  And you can see that nicely if you connect that signal to spectrum analyser, you will see that clearly... If you connect it to a CRT analog scope you will see  10 MHz signal varying in amplitude.....  And in order to see exactly the same image on digital scope you need to sample in such manner that your effective sampling rate should satisfy Nyquist  for 10Mhz and a bit more (to account for modulation), so roughly lets say a 25 MS/s or more would be OK number...

If audio signal was single 20Khz tone, you could use old repetitive sampling scope, that should have sampling aperture at faster than  40 ns (1/25M samples per second) and you could take single samples from thousands of separate trigger events by varying time where you take sample in time in regards to trigger point and reconstruct on screen same thing you would see on realtime digital scope sampling at real 25 MS/s because your effective sampling rate would also be 25 MS/s. Nyquist happy.

On the other hand if you where looking at the signal that had any variation in modulation signal ( a voice or music instead of single 20 kHz tone) than you need to use realtime sampling scope that has sufficient BW to capture full signal which is 10 MHz or analog scope.... Repetitive sampling scope will show crap..

There is no place whatsoever mentioning RF samplers and mixers in a discussions about realtime digital scopes. It is a out of topic, by a mile.. We might as well speak about gardening when someone asks a question about scopes....


And by this I don't mean RF samplers and mixers are not fascinating subject and that you obviously know quite a lot about it. Quite a lot. It's just it is off the topic here.
 

Offline smallfreak

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #69 on: April 10, 2023, 09:58:00 pm »
Recent posts or old posts?

If I find them again, I will take note of that. It could well be it was off site. I've seen a couple of YT videos on the scopes in my shortlist. Not everyone did make the impression to be a real scope specialist. But even if they just did not know how to configure it right, I still was amazed, that any reputable manufacturer would even allow for such a crappy display. I don't want to blame a particular model. But it was more than once, so I maybe wrongly assumed that it is more common.

It also might have been enhanced by a later firmware update however. Unfortunately many tests, videos or just "unboxing of ..." are not always kept up to date with "problems already fixed". It's even quite difficult to find such information here. It might be hidden in "4000+ folloups".  ???

Perhaps a different situation, but maybe I might refer to this pretty recent post of an obviously knowledgeable person. The screenshot probably shows "raw data samples connected by lines" and not what I would recognize as a "true signal reconstructed from data points within bandwidth". Although it is a single shot and no average. At 20ns/div I would expect overshoots on the edges and a much smoother top, even with 250MHz bandwidth and 1GS/s. The measurements certainly do have signal noise and at least 1Bit digitizing noise but that shouldn't necessarily get translated into a jaggy line showing edges and corners way beyond the bandwidth. There is no thing like "corners" in signals.

While these data points might have been measured just so, they most likely have to get correlated first to get a better representation of the underlying true signal they had sampled - which than may take advantage of a higher vertical resolution than the 256 different discrete values an 8Bit digitizer might collect. Maybe the scopes CAN do that, but nobody uses such a function for certain reasons. I know that it can be done on modern scopes for multiple waveforms in a greyscale or color manner to smooth out statistical variations.

I have not yet found a suitable discussion that/why this might be the only viable method of displaying the samples, but I still have a few thousands of Posts to read.  ::) But I do believe I have not seen a "reconstructed signal" so far on any DSO topic.

Being mostly analog with my measurements so far, I might have to get used to different expectations in the DSO world.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #70 on: April 10, 2023, 11:01:13 pm »
There are many very good documents on that particular topic, interpolation. There are many thing that we have to read, YT is not everything there is. Quite the opposite..

For instance:
https://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_interpolation_102203.pdf

Keysight and Tektronix have similar info.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #71 on: April 10, 2023, 11:02:07 pm »
...I've seen a couple of YT videos on the scopes in my shortlist....Unfortunately many tests, videos or just "unboxing of ..." are not always kept up to date with "problems already fixed".

There are far too many yoootooob vids like that, on all subjects. I spend ~30s deciding whether an written article is worth spending 10min reading and understanding. Since that is impossible with a yoootooob vid, I ignore them completely unless there is good reason for me to believe they are worth my time. 99.9% aren't!

Quote
Perhaps a different situation, but maybe I might refer to this pretty recent post of an obviously knowledgeable person. The screenshot probably shows "raw data samples connected by lines" and not what I would recognize as a "true signal reconstructed from data points within bandwidth". Although it is a single shot and no average. At 20ns/div I would expect overshoots on the edges and a much smoother top, even with 250MHz bandwidth and 1GS/s. The measurements certainly do have signal noise and at least 1Bit digitizing noise but that shouldn't necessarily get translated into a jaggy line showing edges and corners way beyond the bandwidth. There is no thing like "corners" in signals.

Ah, but how should you choose to interpolate or "join the sample dots"? With a zero order hold, or a first order hold, or ..., or a sinc(x) function, or what? One of my old scopes even allows you to choose.

While that isn't too important for the cases where the sampling rate is much higher than the bandlimited signal being displayed, it is important in other cases. I've seen relatively modern HP scopes (HP54621) where that was a problem when using an infinite persistance mode to examine the signal integrity of a digital waveform's risetime. You could turn off interpolation deep inside the menuing system, but touch any basic control and interpolation re-appeared.

My preference is to see the individual samples as dots, without lines connecting the samples. That way you can see what has and has not been measured.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Performa01

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #72 on: April 11, 2023, 09:14:36 am »
Perhaps a different situation, but maybe I might refer to this pretty recent post of an obviously knowledgeable person. The screenshot probably shows "raw data samples connected by lines" and not what I would recognize as a "true signal reconstructed from data points within bandwidth". Although it is a single shot and no average. At 20ns/div I would expect overshoots on the edges and a much smoother top, even with 250MHz bandwidth and 1GS/s. The measurements certainly do have signal noise and at least 1Bit digitizing noise but that shouldn't necessarily get translated into a jaggy line showing edges and corners way beyond the bandwidth. There is no thing like "corners" in signals.
Clicking the link doesn't work for me and if I copy the stripped link into the browser, I'm landing at reply #2353 which doen't contain any screenshot.

So I assume you are referring to reply #2356. I do not know about the settings – but that is what you get on an (only) 8-bit scope, where each sample is represented by a line that is 2 screen-pixels high. The signal is slow (10 MHz), obviously noisy and I honestly don't know how BillyO managed to show a single frame even though the DSO says "Trig'd" (1). Normally, we see hundreds or even thousands of acquisitions (records) mixed together in a single frame, 60 times per second – except when in Stop mode, where only the most recent record is shown. The rest is in the history.

How do you know it is linear interpolation? I don't think so – even though it would be the most appropriate display mode for digital (square) signals. When looking close, we just see the granular noise of +/-1 sample, which is represented by +/-2 pixels on the screen. Absolutely no way to determine which interpolation method was used. Furthermore, there are 280 points (samples) in this screen, hence not much need for interpolation.

And why would you expect overshoots at the edges? How can you know what the original signal looks like? Only crappy oscilloscope frontends produce a lot of overshooting on a clean square wave. And I assume that BillyO used a clean signal for testing his "improved" scope…

And "a jaggy line showing edges and corners way beyond the bandwidth": the granular noise of an ADC stems from the sample rate, not the frontend, hence the input bandwidth is irrelevant. One horizontal division represents 20 ns. I cannot see more than 20 different levels within one division, so this would be perfectly plausible for 1 GSa/s and a granular noise of +/-1 LSB.

Here are a few examples how fast signals at short time bases look like with a proper setup, so we can benefit from the SPO technology:

First a 400 MHz sine, vastly exceeding the bandwidth of the 300 MHz DSO (Siglent SDS2304X back in 2016), demonstrating its measurement capabilities (and accuracy). This is about time resolution, but also nicely demonstrates signal reconstruction. Only 1 ns/div and 28 points record length, reply #68:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/will-keysight-upgrade-the-2000-3000t-x-series-oscilloscopes-within-a-few-months/msg1029057/#msg1029057

Then a modulated signal in Dots mode (SDS1104X-E, 2017), to demonstrate that interpolation or reconstruction aren't even necessary in most cases, guaranteeing the best signal fidelity of all methods. This was about a different behavior on signal drop out in normal trigger mode, which I found fine back then, but Siglent have altered it in later firmware to be more mainstream. 50 ns/div, dots mode; reply #341:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1359013/#msg1359013

Finally a number of square waves at 10 ns/div (SDS1202X-E, SDS2304X, 2018), clearly demonstrating how noticable the difference between a 200 and 300 MHz scope can be in certain situations (the actual bandwidth of the SDS2304X is up to 450 MHz, depending on the probes), reply #515:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1433299/#msg1433299


While these data points might have been measured just so, they most likely have to get correlated first to get a better representation of the underlying true signal they had sampled - which than may take advantage of a higher vertical resolution than the 256 different discrete values an 8Bit digitizer might collect. Maybe the scopes CAN do that, but nobody uses such a function for certain reasons. I know that it can be done on modern scopes for multiple waveforms in a greyscale or color manner to smooth out statistical variations.
In contemporary Siglent machines we get the original raw data when using normal acquisition and dots display mode. Only when the timebase gets so slow that the scope cannot maintain the full sample rate anymore, then the input sample rate gets decimated after the fact, but the remaining samples are still unmodified.

Decimation algorithm is different when using Peak Detect, which also destroys the signal integrity hence is a mode only for tinkerers or service techs, but not for people who want to do serious signal analysis. Thankfully, the deep memory of modern DSOs vastly reduces the situations, where peak detect would be useful.

There are more acquisition modes, like Average and ERES, both modifying the original samples. The SDS2000X Plus implements these modes as math functions, so we can use them while still preserving the original data. Better scopes (starting from SDS2000X HD) offer both (Average and ERES as acquisition modes and math functions) at the same time.

Like the acquisition modes, we can select the display modes: raw dots, linear interpolation or sin(x)/x reconstruction.

Without decimation, all samples make it to the screen, used for intensity or color grading, as especially the modulation example above should have revealed already.

I have not yet found a suitable discussion that/why this might be the only viable method of displaying the samples, but I still have a few thousands of Posts to read.  ::) But I do believe I have not seen a "reconstructed signal" so far on any DSO topic.
Regarding a discussion about "reconstruction", may I recommend this review, where this topic (and many more) are discussed in great detail, with lots of screenshots for demonstration.
 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review


Being mostly analog with my measurements so far, I might have to get used to different expectations in the DSO world.
This was certainly true in the last century, where DSOs really left much to be desired and analog engineers mistrusted them. Slow sample rates, short memories, the attempt, to overcome this with ETS, which works only for stably triggered periodic signals – but for longer periods, the scope also needs more memory – and sin(x)/x reconstruction was indeed not so common, because the lack of computation power …

Nowadays Analog engineers can get perfectly happy with the contemporary machines, all the more so if they choose 12 bit instead of just 8. Thankfully so, because the old analog boat anchors can't be ordered anymore anyway. Instead of this, analog engineers benefit from the massive increased capabilities, like automated measurements, advanced math including a properly implemented FFT and bode plot applications, which can replace a signal analyzer in quite a few cases.

(1) EDIT: Well, there is a way to disable the SPO engine ... by selecting "slow acquisition" in the Acquire menu. Maybe that's what happened here.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2023, 12:45:23 pm by Performa01 »
 

Offline smallfreak

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #73 on: April 11, 2023, 10:05:53 am »
Thanks for all those interesting links. I will try to keep up with this information and try not to look like a complete noob next time.  ::)
Time to get my new scope soon and get hands on experience. Obviously this all can be done "right", but sometimes people just do not care about the wave looking "jaggy" on the DSO screen.
 

Online Wallace Gasiewicz

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Re: Help me choosing new Oscilloscope
« Reply #74 on: April 11, 2023, 08:04:10 pm »
I cannot resist    QUOTE:
Slow sample rates, short memories, the attempt, to overcome this
Are you talking about scopes or my current mentation? Seems quite accurate both ways..
 


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