Help choosing DSO :) MSO5000 ?

[nubinstanley]

The last time I used an oscilloscope was when I was in college which was a long time ago. I have always wanted an oscilloscope and I think its time... 

I have already decided on an entry level scope (based on what I feel is needed at the moment) : the Siglent SDS1104X-E.

Now, as usual, the confusion is this : This would be a scope I am gonna use for another decade (hopefully!). So, can I get something better ? Who knows what I might be using it for in 3-5 years time... I am keeping a spend limit of 2X of the SDS1104X-E, which gives me a Rigol MSO5074 which looks awesome on paper! (I think I prefer the SDS2104X Plus, but I am keeping a strict spending limit).

Here is where I need help from you folks.

1) Are these scopes still "hackable" in 2022 ? Can they also be returned to "factory state" in case I want to claim warranty ?
2) Most of the videos/articles on the MSO5000 series talked about a lot of issues : sluggish UI, effective 5bit resolution, front-end noise etc. What is the state now ?
3) Is the MSO5000 series still bug ridden ? Would I rather enjoy the lower specd SDS1104X-E (and save some money as well) ?

Ideal scenario : Use the SDS1104X-E for some time and if/when the need arises move to a better scope. Maybe at this point in time, there are better options available as well! The problem is, I doubt I'd be able to sell a DSO at a decent price here in India. (I'll be spending around 650 USD on the SDS1104X-E! Now way around that!).

[rstofer]

I have the Rigol DS1054Z which I bought before the SDS1104X-E was introduced.  Buying today, I would definitely go for the Siglent.  Since you are already comfortable with that decision, go for it!

AFAIK, the process for gaining 200 MHz bandwidth is well understood.  Use the Search feature and see what turns up.  There is a massive thread.

You can start here for a recent thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/can-sds1104x-e-be-unlocked-to-200mhz/msg3992438/#msg3992438

BTW, user 'tautech' is a Siglent distributor in NZ so pay attention to what he says.

[Fungus]

1) Are these scopes still "hackable"

Yes.

It's done deliberately as a marketing thing so that will never change. There is no "war".

Can they also be returned to "factory state" in case I want to claim warranty ?

Yes.

2) Most of the videos/articles on the MSO5000 series talked about a lot of issues : sluggish UI, effective 5bit resolution, front-end noise etc. What is the state now ?
3) Is the MSO5000 series still bug ridden ?

All 'scopes have problems. Don't be fooled into thinking the Siglent world is perfect.

The MSO5000 has been much improved by firmware updates. Always look at the dates on anything you read about it and disregard the old stuff. If you want a beast of an oscilloscope? The MSO5000 is the one.

Most of MSO5000's front-end noise is still there though. There's more features to reduce it but it's a hardware thing so they con only do so much. Whether it's a problem depends on you and what you intend to use it for. If you work all day with signals in the mV range the MSO5000 probably isn't the 'scope for you. If you're working with mostly digital things then you'll appreciate the massive memory, bandwidth and ASIC processing power.

The SDS1104X-E is probably all you need for now though.

[nctnico]

BTW: Don't expect to sell used test equipment without a big loss (unless it is a collector's item or the price is at scrap value). Test equipment devaluates faster than a car.

[nubinstanley]

I have the Rigol DS1054Z which I bought before the SDS1104X-E was introduced.  Buying today, I would definitely go for the Siglent.  Since you are already comfortable with that decision, go for it!

AFAIK, the process for gaining 200 MHz bandwidth is well understood.  Use the Search feature and see what turns up.  There is a massive thread.

You can start here for a recent thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/can-sds1104x-e-be-unlocked-to-200mhz/msg3992438/#msg3992438

BTW, user 'tautech' is a Siglent distributor in NZ so pay attention to what he says.

 

[nubinstanley]

 

BTW: Don't expect to sell used test equipment without a big loss (unless it is a collector's item or the price is at scrap value). Test equipment devaluates faster than a car.

 

[rsjsouza]

Good suggestions all around. If I were on the market for an entry level scope, the Siglent would be my choice as well, although the Rigol DS1054Z is aging quite well and is still a respectable scope.

One additional aspect is that the higher noise of the MSO5000 might impact your work significantly if you are interested in working with very low level signals (audio/instrumentation signal chain or power supply ripple measurements, for example).

Good luck in your choice!

[nubinstanley]

1) Are these scopes still "hackable"

Yes.

It's done deliberately as a marketing thing so that will never change. There is no "war".

Can they also be returned to "factory state" in case I want to claim warranty ?

Yes.

Then I guess, if I go the MSO5000 route, I could just get the MSO5072 ?

All 'scopes have problems. Don't be fooled into thinking the Siglent world is perfect.

The MSO5000 has been much improved by firmware updates. Always look at the dates on anything you read about it and disregard the old stuff. If you want a beast of an oscilloscope? The MSO5000 is the one.

Most of MSO5000's front-end noise is still there though. There's more features to reduce it but it's a hardware thing so they con only do so much. Whether it's a problem depends on you and what you intend to use it for. If you work all day with signals in the mV range the MSO5000 probably isn't the 'scope for you. If you're working with mostly digital things then you'll appreciate the massive memory, bandwidth and ASIC processing power.

The SDS1104X-E is probably all you need for now though.

I don't think I'll be working all day with signals in the mV range. Is there any "external" DIY work-around though ?

Let me read a little bit more about the MSO5000 - user feedback after firmware upgrades...

[nubinstanley]

Good suggestions all around. If I were on the market for an entry level scope, the Siglent would be my choice as well, although the Rigol DS1054Z is aging quite well and is still a respectable scope.

One additional aspect is that the higher noise of the MSO5000 might impact your work significantly if you are interested in working with very low level signals (audio/instrumentation signal chain or power supply ripple measurements, for example).

Good luck in your choice!

The nearest Siglent alternative to the MSO5000 would the Siglent SDS2104X Plus right ? Is there any from Siglent with comparable sample rates ?

[rsjsouza]

Although sample rate is not everything, the Rigol has exceedingly high sample rates which are not matched by any of the products in Siglent's line. A cursory view on their product line shows that, in terms of overall specifications of memory depth and waveform update rate, the SDS5000 seems to be the closest, although at a much higher price tag. Even still, the SDS2104X Plus has very decent specifications but it costs more than the MSP5072 (at least in the webpages I looked).

Again, such decision is always dependent on the budget and application: if you are interested in the MSO5072 and feel that two channels are enough for you, then you can save some money by considering even the entry level SDS1202X-E but you at the expense of having impaired serial protocol decoding capabilities, for example (some require more than two channels). On the other hand, the MSO5074 is listed as an even lower cost when compared to the SDS2104X Plus, so you might take that into consideration as well.

[nubinstanley]

Although sample rate is not everything, the Rigol has exceedingly high sample rates which are not matched by any of the products in Siglent's line. A cursory view on their product line shows that, in terms of overall specifications of memory depth and waveform update rate, the SDS5000 seems to be the closest, although at a much higher price tag. Even still, the SDS2104X Plus has very decent specifications but it costs more than the MSP5072 (at least in the webpages I looked).

Again, such decision is always dependent on the budget and application: if you are interested in the MSO5072 and feel that two channels are enough for you, then you can save some money by considering even the entry level SDS1202X-E but you at the expense of having impaired serial protocol decoding capabilities, for example (some require more than two channels). On the other hand, the MSO5074 is listed as an even lower cost when compared to the SDS2104X Plus, so you might take that into consideration as well.

I brought the MSO5072 into the mix because it is cheaper and because the MSO5000 series is "hackable". So, as I said in my initial post, if I want to stick to my spending limit, the MS05072/MSO5074 is the "best" at the price point.

I am worried about the noise floor though. As I understand, even if I am not working at very low voltages, any signal would appear "thicker" on the scope ? I am reading through a few threads on this topic now. It would have been good if I could see the same signals (say 10mV/50mV/100mV sinusoid @ 20Mhz) on the the MSO5072/MSO5074 and the SDS2104X Plus/SDS1104X-E. 

[Fungus]

Then I guess, if I go the MSO5000 route, I could just get the MSO5072 ?

Yes.

You only get two cheap probes though instead of four good ones with the MSO5074 so it's not much of a saving at the end of the day.

In a pinch there's all sorts of tricks you can do to get around the noise. It depends a lot on the frequency and type of signal though.

[Fungus]

As I understand, even if I am not working at very low voltages, any signal would appear "thicker" on the scope ? I am reading through a few threads on this topic now.

Yes... but fixating on that is missing what oscilloscopes are for. Oscilloscopes are there to see the timing, shape of a waveform. eg. Is it going up and down? When? How much? At what frequency? Thick lines don't change any of that.

[nubinstanley]

Then I guess, if I go the MSO5000 route, I could just get the MSO5072 ?

Yes.

You only get two cheap probes though instead of four good ones with the MSO5074 so it's not much of a saving at the end of the day.

In a pinch there's all sorts of tricks you can do to get around the noise. It depends a lot on the frequency and type of signal though.

Yeah, forgot about the probes!

If there are reliable DIY (and low cost  ) workarounds for the low noise floor problem, and if the number of times I actually work with such low voltages is low, I guess there is no scope to beat the MSO5000 at that price point....

But, like I mentioned in my previous post, I can't exactly comprehend how much the "thicker" reproduction of all signals might affect its usage.

[nubinstanley]

 

As I understand, even if I am not working at very low voltages, any signal would appear "thicker" on the scope ? I am reading through a few threads on this topic now.

Yes... but fixating on that is missing what oscilloscopes are for. Oscilloscopes are there to see the timing and shape of a waveform. eg. Is it going up and down? When? At what frequency? Thick lines don't change any of that.

 

[Fungus]

But, like I mentioned in my previous post, I can't exactly comprehend how much the "thicker" reproduction of all signals might affect its usage.

It will rarely prevent you from getting the job done but if you're an OCD sort of person who'll obsess over every time you look at the screen instead of remembering how much bandwidth/memory you've got then don't buy one.

You'll also be gaining separate channel controls a touchscreen and signal generator. All worth having.

[2N3055]

Although sample rate is not everything, the Rigol has exceedingly high sample rates which are not matched by any of the products in Siglent's line. A cursory view on their product line shows that, in terms of overall specifications of memory depth and waveform update rate, the SDS5000 seems to be the closest, although at a much higher price tag. Even still, the SDS2104X Plus has very decent specifications but it costs more than the MSP5072 (at least in the webpages I looked).

Again, such decision is always dependent on the budget and application: if you are interested in the MSO5072 and feel that two channels are enough for you, then you can save some money by considering even the entry level SDS1202X-E but you at the expense of having impaired serial protocol decoding capabilities, for example (some require more than two channels). On the other hand, the MSO5074 is listed as an even lower cost when compared to the SDS2104X Plus, so you might take that into consideration as well.

I brought the MSO5072 into the mix because it is cheaper and because the MSO5000 series is "hackable". So, as I said in my initial post, if I want to stick to my spending limit, the MS05072/MSO5074 is the "best" at the price point.

I am worried about the noise floor though. As I understand, even if I am not working at very low voltages, any signal would appear "thicker" on the scope ? I am reading through a few threads on this topic now. It would have been good if I could see the same signals (say 10mV/50mV/100mV sinusoid @ 20Mhz) on the the MSO5072/MSO5074 and the SDS2104X Plus/SDS1104X-E. 

Despite some dubious things being said here, MSO5000 has much more noise than SDS2104X Plus/SDS1104X-E and that is important if you need to see low level signals.
No amount of wishful thinking and pushing a head in a sand will change that fact. Thick lines will hide the fact that in that noise there are other signals riding on large one...

You cannot replace low noise equipment with a high noise equipment. Higher noise equipment, by definition, hides more things from you.
You cannot replace bandwidth. If you need 1 GHz bandwidth, 200Mhz scope won't do. Period.
If you need to sample long periods with high sample rate, you need long memory. Scope with large memory can sample what a small memory scope can, but not vice versa.
If you need decoding, you need to have it.

All that being said, I personally like the scope to have lowest noise and best analog performance first. On top of that all other.

MSO5074, SDS2104X Plus and SDS1104X-E are really 3 different types of scopes.

I would say that MSO5074 (if equipped with MSO probes) is a decent mixed signal scope for looking at logic level signals. It has noisy front end, but it has lots of memory and MSO and decoding. I personally don't like their implementation, but is is a useful scope for amateur robotics, microcontroller arduino type stuff etc.. It has 2Ch of basic AWG. It has Bode plot but is not very good.

SDS2104X Plus is much better scope for analog stuff etc. It is more designed for that. Since I do that, I prefer it to MSO5000. I also, personally, like their software concept better. It is more logical to me. It has 1CH of basic AWG. It's Bode plot implementation is top notch.

But, If I were you, I would just go and get SDS1104X-E. It is a lot of scope for the money. Possibly all the scope you need for a long time. And for the rest of the money you can buy few other instruments....
And these  class of scopes actually hold their value. You will easily sell it later and upgrade if you have a need for it.

[Chernobyl]

I purchased a Siglent SDS1104X-E about 6 months ago and love it. For a hobbyist it is great value for money and I don't think you'll regret your choice.

Full disclosure: I have a tiny amount of regret around not springing for the SDS2104X Plus (more bandwidth and nice large touchscreen), but I just couldn't justify the over 2x cost at this time.

[nubinstanley]

But, like I mentioned in my previous post, I can't exactly comprehend how much the "thicker" reproduction of all signals might affect its usage.

It will rarely prevent you from getting the job done but if you're an OCD sort of person who'll obsess over every time you look at the screen instead of remembering how much bandwidth/memory you've got then don't buy one.

You'll also be gaining separate channel controls a touchscreen and signal generator. All worth having.

 

[nubinstanley]

I purchased a Siglent SDS1104X-E about 6 months ago and love it. For a hobbyist it is great value for money and I don't think you'll regret your choice.

Full disclosure: I have a tiny amount of regret around not springing for the SDS2104X Plus (more bandwidth and nice large touchscreen), but I just couldn't justify the over 2x cost at this time.

 

[Fungus]

Despite some dubious things being said here, MSO5000 has much more noise than SDS2104X Plus/SDS1104X-E and that is important if you need to see low level signals.

... if you need to see low level signals then obviously it's important, nobody's denying that. What if you don't particularly need to see them?

No amount of wishful thinking and pushing a head in a sand will change that fact. Thick lines will hide the fact that in that noise there are other signals riding on large one...

That's just FUD though. Maybe you can give a concrete example of when it would be a disaster instead of just invoking the bogeyman.


If a signal is repetitive then things like averaging mode can clean it up. Here's a screenshot taken from a MSO5000 with averaging mode on:



No thick traces there.

There's also hires mode and heatmap mode. They can bring out more detail especially when you've got 8Gsamples/sec to burn.

Yes, I know they're not perfect solutions and the Siglent is better. All I'm saying is that the MSO5000 isn't a complete disaster like all the oooo-look-at-the-Rigol-noise-isn't-it-awful! screenshots that get posted here seem to imply. If low level signals aren't a big thing for you then the Rigol is a lot of bang:buck.

nubinstanley: You say the SDS1104X-E will cost you 650 USD where you live. How much is the Rigol?

The SDS1104X-E is probably still the best bet unless you're working with (eg.) digital stuff in the 50-100MHz range and absolutely need the Rigol's bandwidth.

[nubinstanley]

Despite some dubious things being said here, MSO5000 has much more noise than SDS2104X Plus/SDS1104X-E and that is important if you need to see low level signals.
No amount of wishful thinking and pushing a head in a sand will change that fact. Thick lines will hide the fact that in that noise there are other signals riding on large one...

You cannot replace low noise equipment with a high noise equipment. Higher noise equipment, by definition, hides more things from you.
You cannot replace bandwidth. If you need 1 GHz bandwidth, 200Mhz scope won't do. Period.
If you need to sample long periods with high sample rate, you need long memory. Scope with large memory can sample what a small memory scope can, but not vice versa.
If you need decoding, you need to have it.

All that being said, I personally like the scope to have lowest noise and best analog performance first. On top of that all other.

MSO5074, SDS2104X Plus and SDS1104X-E are really 3 different types of scopes.

I would say that MSO5074 (if equipped with MSO probes) is a decent mixed signal scope for looking at logic level signals. It has noisy front end, but it has lots of memory and MSO and decoding. I personally don't like their implementation, but is is a useful scope for amateur robotics, microcontroller arduino type stuff etc.. It has 2Ch of basic AWG. It has Bode plot but is not very good.

SDS2104X Plus is much better scope for analog stuff etc. It is more designed for that. Since I do that, I prefer it to MSO5000. I also, personally, like their software concept better. It is more logical to me. It has 1CH of basic AWG. It's Bode plot implementation is top notch.

But, If I were you, I would just go and get SDS1104X-E. It is a lot of scope for the money. Possibly all the scope you need for a long time. And for the rest of the money you can buy few other instruments....
And these  class of scopes actually hold their value. You will easily sell it later and upgrade if you have a need for it.

I do understand what you are saying. But my question is as follows :

I work a lot with microcontrollers and so I know that I want 4 channels, good protocol decoding and LA capabilities (cheap DIY probe possible with the MSO5000 ?). It's also unlikely that I'll get an acceptable resale value for a scope in my location - So, the one I buy now, will most likely be the one I'll be using 10 years from now!

Coming to analog part - Right now, I don't even know a use-case where I would need to look at very low voltages. I am planning on learning more as I go and so I don't know for a fact that I'll not know such a use-case in future. So no, I cannot say with absolute certainty that the low noise floor will not be an issue for me. And as I mentioned earlier, I am not exactly able to comprehend how the front-end noise would effect the reproduction of higher voltage signals (1V+ ?) - the thicker traces - will it be too off-putting ?

So..

1) Assuming that for the next 3 years I'll mostly be in the digital domain with a little bit of analog stuff, is the MSO5000 a bad buy ?
2) The thicker traces - will it be too off-putting ? Will it be too difficult to work with analog signals - even if not very low voltages ?
3) How is the protocol decoding/LA capabilities of the SDS1104X-E/SDS2104X Plus (compared to the MSO5000)? Also, DIY LA probes are difficult to make ?
4) For the occasions where I do have to work with low voltages, can I use some work-arounds ? Pre-amps ?

As I did mention, I shortlisted 3 scopes : SDS1104X-E, MSO5104, SDS2104X Plus. The last one is off the list as I don't want to spend that much. Right now, after all the reading, I am a bit scared to go the MSO5000 way. But, to be frank, I don't know if that feeling is justified. Maybe if I get answers to the above questions, I can make a more informed decision.

I sure do hope if a few of the MSO5000 owners chime in. Anyhow, looks like I'll be saving some money (by buying the SDS1104X-E)

[nubinstanley]

nubinstanley: You say the SDS1104X-E will cost you 650 USD where you live. How much is the Rigol?

The listed price is close to 1310 USD.

The SDS1104X-E is probably still the best bet unless you're working with (eg.) digital stuff in the 50-100MHz range and absolutely need the Rigol's bandwidth.

To be frank, we are not talking about "what I absolutely need". It's about "I can buy only one - what's the best I can get at a price point so that some features are there IF/WHEN I need it".

Anyhow, looks like getting the SDS1104X-E would be the safe bet. And HOPE that if/when I need to upgrade, I get a decent resale price for it.

[nubinstanley]

The SDS2104X Plus would come to around 1855 USD (haven't done any negotiations)...

[2N3055]

Despite some dubious things being said here, MSO5000 has much more noise than SDS2104X Plus/SDS1104X-E and that is important if you need to see low level signals.

... if you need to see low level signals then obviously it's important, nobody's denying that. What if you don't particularly need to see them?

No amount of wishful thinking and pushing a head in a sand will change that fact. Thick lines will hide the fact that in that noise there are other signals riding on large one...

That's just FUD though. Maybe you can give a concrete example of when it would be a disaster instead of just invoking the bogeyman.


If a signal is repetitive then things like averaging mode can clean it up. Here's a screenshot taken from a MSO5000 with averaging mode on:



No thick traces there.

There's also hires mode and heatmap mode. They can bring out more detail especially when you've got 8Gsamples/sec to burn.

Yes, I know they're not perfect solutions and the Siglent is better. All I'm saying is that the MSO5000 isn't a complete disaster like all the oooo-look-at-the-Rigol-noise-isn't-it-awful! screenshots that get posted here seem to imply. If low level signals aren't a big thing for you then the Rigol is a lot of bang:buck.

nubinstanley: You say the SDS1104X-E will cost you 650 USD where you live. How much is the Rigol?

The SDS1104X-E is probably still the best bet unless you're working with (eg.) digital stuff in the 50-100MHz range and absolutely need the Rigol's bandwidth.

You keep repeating, what at first was uninformed statements and now is something else. Deliberate misinformation?
If someone can post a screenshot that shows a trace that is twice as thick as some other scope's, than it is REAL.
Of course something is not a problem if you CHOOSE to ignore it. Until it hits you on the head even if you're not looking, that is...
If you shut it off and don't use it at all you can't see any noise.. See, I fixed it for you...No noise I tell y'a. 

Image you posted is not a representation of how MSO5000 shows trace and how much noise it has. It is a single capture of only 1 kpts. Noise is manifested by overlapping thousands of traces on top of each other. Low noise scope with good trigger will perfectly retrace all pixels on top of each other. You will have what visibly looks like one trace, but is a combination of thousands of triggers on top of each other. Scope with high noise will have signal wiggle around and will show thick trace. How thick? Depends on the noise and chosen range.

Averaging is not replacement for low noise front piece of equipment in a first place. It works only on a repetitive signal and will filter out noise that is a part of a signal too. Noise in a signal is something we want to see if there is some. That is why we bought the scope in a first place. Hires is lowpass filtering and converts your scope to a bad audio card if you filter too far.. Will also filter out anything in that range from a signal too.

And none of that is FUD. You keep screaming FUD and repeating how it is not important. It is important figure of merit separating different equipment. Ask any radio person how unimportant is dynamic range, noise figures and such. And why they spend so much time to get a 1 or 2 dB less noise.
It might not be a deal breaker to some that only work on digital signals but is genuine part of the characteristics of MSO5000. Problem with scopes is that they are universal instruments. They allow us to see stuff you can't otherwise. And their use is very creative sometimes. And we cannot predict how are we going to use them and on what kind of the problem.

There are still people that claim old analog scopes are superior because they have lower noise and thin traces on which you can see more details compared to digital scopes. And in the case of MSO5000 they would be right. But there are other digital scopes (some really inexpensive for the specs you get) that are at the level of good analog ones in regards of noise.

Does it make MSO5000 unusable and useless? Not by any chance. It is a scope that has many features and if you're not looking into low level signals and use it for digital  it is a tool that will let knowledgeable person do many things. It is not a bad scope, it's just not very good at certain, important figures of merit.
And this is all I already SAID in my post. For many people not doing precision stuff analog performance will be GOOD ENOUGH.
But we cannot spread misinformation that it is EQUALLY GOOD as scopes that have SUPERIOR performance noise figures...
We cannot spread misinformation noise is not important because you filter and average and it magically goes away. It doesn't. That is simply not true. We sometimes use some techniques to squeeze signal a little bit to try and isolate some specific detail from the signal when we are working on a edge or deliberately want to ignore some part of the signal. But that is only if we have no other choice or we don't care about detail at that time. But if signal is not there to be seen in a first place, you can't do much.