Handheld meter robustness testing

[joeqsmith]

Cranked up the generator to 6.5KV 40uS into an open using the 2 ohm source.   The waveform is attached.  This is about 700 volts over what I had the two final meters at.   I then repeated the test using the Fluke 101 all modes, both +/-.   Once again, the Fluke remains fully functional.     The more I beat it up, the more impressed I am.

This really is the limit of the generator.   There is no room inside to add more storage and pushing it harder is just going to damage it.

What voltage are the caps in your bank rated for?  Couldn't you charge them with the output of that neon sign transformer that you used for your Jacob's ladder?  That way, you would need to get your internal DC converter to put out a higher voltage.  You would just need to limit what level you charged the caps to.

The caps (storage) are the limiting factor.   Are you going to run the 101 on your 12KV setup?   

[Meter Junkie]

The caps (storage) are the limiting factor.   Are you going to run the 101 on your 12KV setup?

The 101 is due today..........

[joeqsmith]

    

[Meter Junkie]

The 101 arrived, and I tested it after I got off work. 

The unit survived the full 12kV!!  I hit it 3 times, each polarity, on all switch settings. Everything was fully functional, as I tested every single position.

I actually started at a lower level, an not right a 12kV.  I hit it 3 pulses of each polarity at 6, 8, 10, and then 12kV.  After the Fluke passed all of that, I blew up another $5 Harbor Freight meter, just to prove to myself everything was working.

I recorded the testing, but there is no point in posting it, as NOTHING happened.

I also took a short video of the inside of the surge generator, so everyone can see it's construction. I'll post a link as soon as it finishes uploading.

[Meter Junkie]

Here is a quick video of the inside of the surge generator. I'm assuming that people following this thread would be interested in it's construction.

I just stuck the GoPro camera in, and moved it around to show the capacitor banks, transformer, control panel, and massive contactor.

http://youtu.be/bifNjReS_Yw

[Muxr]

Nice construction. Looks roomy.

[joeqsmith]

The 101 arrived, and I tested it after I got off work. 

The unit survived the full 12kV!!  I hit it 3 times, each polarity, on all switch settings. Everything was fully functional, as I tested every single position.

I actually started at a lower level, an not right a 12kV.  I hit it 3 pulses of each polarity at 6, 8, 10, and then 12kV.  After the Fluke passed all of that, I blew up another $5 Harbor Freight meter, just to prove to myself everything was working.

I recorded the testing, but there is no point in posting it, as NOTHING happened.

I also took a short video of the inside of the surge generator, so everyone can see it's construction. I'll post a link as soon as it finishes uploading.

  I was afraid of that!   Fungus called this one!

So we are all clear, I have a few questions.

Are you using the 1.2/50 8/20 surge, 2 ohm source?
Was there any sort of bias on the meter when you hit it with the transients?   
Did you verify the waveform?   

And of course, what's it going to take to damage one of these!!??   It's a cheap $50 meter, how hard can it be?? 

[Muxr]

That's pretty incredible 12KV!!

You know when Dave Taylor did the AmpHour interview about the history of Fluke. He mentioned how Fluke invested millions in just their PCB washing process. I thought it was a great anecdote on how seriously they take safety and quality.

It's good to see that even their Chinese made 101s are continuing that tradition. I am definitely impressed. Thank you for great tests Joe and Meter Junkie!

Here is the link to the AmpHour episode in question: http://www.theamphour.com/180-an-interview-with-dave-taylor-multi-talented-meter-maker/

[Meter Junkie]

I was afraid of that!   Fungus called this one!

So we are all clear, I have a few questions.

Are you using the 1.2/50 8/20 surge, 2 ohm source?
Was there any sort of bias on the meter when you hit it with the transients?   
Did you verify the waveform?   

And of course, what's it going to take to damage one of these!!??   It's a cheap $50 meter, how hard can it be??

Yes, it was a 1.2/50   8/20 surge.  That is the only wave this machine does, as it was designed exclusivley to test 61010-1.  And yes, I was using the 2 ohm output, not the 12.  I was also only using about 4 inch leads into the meter, instead of the full length of the leads, to lower the resistance as much as possible.

No bias. I am looking into a CDN, but do not have one yet.  I doubt a bias would have done anything, as there was no arcing at all during the surge testing. Yes, it would add continuous energy after an arc started, but I don't believe there was any arcing.

I did not verify the waveform.  I do not have a high voltage probe for my scope. But, this machine is calibrated, and the waveforms verified during calibration.

It looks like Fluke may be true to it's claim that these meters will survive upwards of 17kV.  I'm going to open the Fluke, and see what MOV's they are using, and what type of capacity they have. Maybe they can clamp these levels.  It looks like someone my need to build a 20kV generator, or increase the length of the pulse to kill these with a surge.

[joeqsmith]

I was afraid of that!   Fungus called this one!

So we are all clear, I have a few questions.

Are you using the 1.2/50 8/20 surge, 2 ohm source?
Was there any sort of bias on the meter when you hit it with the transients?   
Did you verify the waveform?   

And of course, what's it going to take to damage one of these!!??   It's a cheap $50 meter, how hard can it be??

Yes, it was a 1.2/50   8/20 surge.  That is the only wave this machine does, as it was designed exclusivley to test 61010-1.

No bias. I am looking into a CDN, but do not have one yet.  I doubt a bias would have done anything, as there was no arcing at all during the surge testing. Yes, it would add continuous energy after an arc started, but I don't believe there was any arcing.

I did not verify the waveform.  I do not have a high voltage probe for my scope. But, this machine is calibrated, and the waveforms verified during calibration.

It looks like Fluke may be true to it's claim that these meters will survive upwards of 17kV.  I'm going to open the Fluke, and see what MOV's they are using, and what type of capacity they have. Maybe they can clamp these levels.  It looks like someone my need to build a 20kV generator, or increase the length of the pulse to kill these with a surge.

Good enough on the waveform.    What sort of rep rate were you hitting it at?   

I had asked Fluke about how the 101 stacked up against the 28II.  They responded with "The Fluke 28II is more robust than the Fluke 101 (which is only sold in Asia) and has a limited lifetime warranty."     Also, I asked them if they would release the test data for the 101.  They would not.   

I just finished up the generator.   Second box now contains the storage only.  They are bolted together as I don't think I want 10KV wires dangling around.       Supply, trigger and network are on top.     We will see if that 101 can handle this.      Note the decay and amplitude now.   

If it lives through this, I think I need to throw in the towel and just admit, I am not tougher than my $50 Fluke!   

[Vgkid]

I can't wait for a test video.

[Meter Junkie]

What sort of rep rate were you hitting it at?   

I was hitting it as fast as the generator would charge, which was about 15 to 20 seconds to get to the full 12kV.  I went similar to what you were doing......started at AC voltage on the left of the dial, hit with 3 positive pulses, moved the dial to the right.  Hit all the modes on combo positions (ohms, continuity, diode). When I got to the end, I reversed the polarity, and went back right to left.

The video of me hitting the 12kV was a total of 12 minutes long, with all the pulses as described above.  If I have time this weekend, I will move it off the GoPro camera, speed it up so it's not 12 minutes, and post it.  It just seems like a waste, because it is just me changing dial positions, and hitting the discharge button.  No good blast to see, or hear.

Good luck with your 10kV testing (looks closer to 12kV on that waveform).   Based on my testing, you will be quite bored.

[Meter Junkie]

i just logged into work to look at the documentation for our generator.  We store everything on our servers.  When the unit shipped to us, they provided waveforms of the unit from their test lab. Attached is the 12KV waveform.  The decay on this is much larger than your waveform. The measurement must not be from peak, but from one percentage to another.

[Meter Junkie]

here are shots of where they set their markers to determine rise and fall.

[joeqsmith]

The video of me hitting the 12kV was a total of 12 minutes long, with all the pulses as described above.  If I have time this weekend, I will move it off the GoPro camera, speed it up so it's not 12 minutes, and post it.  It just seems like a waste, because it is just me changing dial positions, and hitting the discharge button.  No good blast to see, or hear.

Good luck with your 10kV testing (looks closer to 12kV on that waveform).   Based on my testing, you will be quite bored.

Yes,  its a full out 12KV.   Should have wrote thousands of volts dangling around.    Most of those tests I ran were VERY boring.   On the plus side I did explode a CC resistor and took out a 120V light bulb.    The first transients I had would take out a very tiny bulb.  The later ones could damage the larger automotive bulbs.   Good to see it finally be able to take out a 120 V one!         

Looking at your waveform, you are already beyond what I have now.   I'll run it anyway.   At least then we have two meters that have been tested roughly the same.

Guessing that was a custom unit for Fluke.   Even using salvaged parts, building one in the 20KV range is going to cost more than the Fluke 28II.   I think if this 101 lives, I will just admit, Fluke really is the king of meters!        Well that is unless someone wants to send us a couple of other brands to run through this test to prove it otherwise.   I don't think you will find a whole lot of even more expensive ones that are going to take this sort of abuse!     

[joeqsmith]

I think we are close on Tr.   I may be able to get a little more out of it.   Been too long of a day to do anything now.            I'll start with what I have, if that lives, Ill see how far I can push it with the new setup.   

Where is Fluke going to ever find free marketing like this!!     Especially coming from someone who admittedly has not been one of their fans.     

So let me get some rest and then I will take one last crack at it!   

[Meter Junkie]

Joe,

I looked back at that document you posted on page 2 of this thread.  It was from Advanced Energy on building and testing surge generators.  That document shows the pulse length markers from the 50% amplitude on the rise, to 50% on the fall.  It matches the waveform from my generator dead on.

If you look at your latest waveform compared to that document, your decay pulse is more like 20 uSec, instead of the 50 you want. 

[Meter Junkie]

Here is the video of me surging the Fluke at 12kV.  Boring as hell.  I left it normal speed at the beginning and end, so you can see the charge times, and here the contactor relay firing.  5x speed the for the rest of it.

It is not as clear as Joe's video, as I was trying to keep both the generator and meter in the picture, and still have some safety separation.  You can see the display change, and sometimes show O.L. after the hits, but that would clear on the next hit, or selector switch change.  I verified it was 100% functional after the hits.

http://youtu.be/4hk5Vmf65-4

[Meter Junkie]

Guessing that was a custom unit for Fluke.     

Found what looks to be that model on-line.  The specs say it can go to 33 kV, and deliver 30 kA.  I don't even want to know what a machine like that costs.

[joeqsmith]

Joe,

I looked back at that document you posted on page 2 of this thread.  It was from Advanced Energy on building and testing surge generators.  That document shows the pulse length markers from the 50% amplitude on the rise, to 50% on the fall.  It matches the waveform from my generator dead on.

If you look at your latest waveform compared to that document, your decay pulse is more like 20 uSec, instead of the 50 you want.

They use FWHH to measure peak shape.   I am using the 100/0 which I thought was very clear from all of the scope shots.  But then I have made statements about how it compares with 61010 so I can see how I clouded things up.   

Still it's not a big deal.  I'm starting to sound a bit like a broken record but again, I was not too concerned about what I hit the meters with, as long as they were all tested the same.  Again, I am not trying to certify the meters for CAT III. 

[joeqsmith]

 

[Meter Junkie]

They use FWHH to measure peak shape.   I am using the 100/0 which I thought was very clear from all of the scope shots.  But then I have made statements about how it compares with 61010 so I can see how I clouded things up.   

Still it's not a big deal.  I'm starting to sound a bit like a broken record but again, I was not too concerned about what I hit the meters with, as long as they were all tested the same.  Again, I am not trying to certify the meters for CAT III.

I get that this was about comparing all the meters equally, and just seeing which was the toughest, and who ended up on top. I also get that your intent was never to "certify" that any of these meters actually meet IEC standards.

As for the waveform, I got by your earlier posts that the time you were talking about was based off of 100/0.  I had never bother to check how the standard measured them, and really did not care that much. I had assumed that you were trying to match that, because you referred to it so often.  So, I really paid no attention to your pulses until you asked me for the waveform of my generator.  When I did look up those pulses, that is when I noticed that mine were a lot different than yours, and even wondered if my machine was off. That is why I went back to that standard you had posted earlier, and realized that mine were right on, and yours were a little off from the standard.  I was not trying to get you to make yours perfect, I was just pointing out that I finally noticed the difference.

But, looking at your latest picture, you have REALLY stepped up your pulse width.  With your first 12 kV pulse you posted earlier, I was thinking I know you won't damage the Fluke, because that was less energy than I was giving it. But, with this latest pulse, it looks like you might be able to do some damage.  Imagine putting that pulse on some of those Mastech meters that you took out with 2kV, and the narrower pulse??

Have you bothered to check what your short circuit current waveform is yet?  Just wondering how close you are on that?

I'm really impressed with what you built, and how fast you did it.  You have built quite a fun experiment, and it got me interested enough in all this to actually do testing on it myself.  Thanks for sparking my interest enough to get me involved in all this.

[joeqsmith]

THANK YOU!!  You stepped up, bought your own Fluke 101 and ran the test!  This saved me a lot of time knowing how hard I would have to push things.

It makes more sense to just use FWHH anyway. 

Yea, I stepped things up after you said you could not damage it.   The little toy generator is not so much a toy anymore.  Wearing gloves now and working one handed.  Today is really my last ditched effort to damage the Fluke 101.     

Would really like to see some other brands run on it.  Not low cost ones like I tested but ones that people just assume are good because they cost so much.    Not thinking there are too many that would want to play this game.   For those meters, it may be best to just stay with the drop and bucket tests.    

[joeqsmith]

Guessing that was a custom unit for Fluke.     

Found what looks to be that model on-line.  The specs say it can go to 33 kV, and deliver 30 kA.  I don't even want to know what a machine like that costs.

So I could just order two of them?   

I think the 30A 8KV system we looked at last was around $80.   The 16A 2-phase 8KV system I am looking at now is around $30.   For non-certified, home project stuff, what I have is fine.   

[Meter Junkie]

I think the 30A 8KV system we looked at last was around $80.   The 16A 2-phase 8KV system I am looking at now is around $30.   For non-certified, home project stuff, what I have is fine.

My company paid $34K for our unit.  I could have just bought yours for the price of that 28 you mentioned, and used the rest for a nice vacation.......