Handheld meter robustness testing

[joeqsmith]

Here's a classic comment.   You loose some context once they edit their posts but you get the idea.. 

[Trader]

I would hate the Keysight fanboys to think their meter turned off because of crap batteries so here's a better view of the U1282A...   

Is easy to see when someone is totally biased.

You can't ask anything, or you will be a "fanboy", and all the answers are to criticize the questioner and disrespect the feedback.

But this is the standard behavior in this forum, nothing new here.

[2N3055]

I would hate the Keysight fanboys to think their meter turned off because of crap batteries so here's a better view of the U1282A...   

Is easy to see when someone is totally biased.

You can't ask anything, or you will be a "fanboy", and all the answers are to criticize the questioner and disrespect the feedback.

But this is the standard behavior in this forum, nothing new here.

You are fanboy because you behave like one...
Just look at so many of your statements...
What is your point here? Poor little Fluke and Keysight don't need you protect their valor...

Joe is having his fun, with his own money and on his own time..
You either watch or not, agree or not...

While I think some of his testing being is not always directly useful, except for entertrainment, one thing I do value him for is irreverence and following facts where they take him. And he honestly documents data as it is, good and bad...

[Trader]

While I think some of his testing being is not always directly useful, except for entertrainment, one thing I do value him for is irreverence and following facts where they take him. And he honestly documents data as it is, good and bad...

At least you agree how useless is to use a "crappy box" with a lot of uncalibrated "references" that even an HB DMM will do very good, put it in a refrigerator below the specs without confirming batteries specs, and the best part, do 50K knob rotations, LOL  .

I'm not a fanboy, YOU and he are hatters of people that express divergent opinions.

Actually, these are the same people that prefer to Destroy a DMM by dropping it from a dam, just for "entertainment".

MY (understand this word: "MY", ok?) opinion is that the TheDefpom 2-videos review was much more useful, to verify if all the specs are very accurate (much better than that crappy box), and did you read that "With the timing, I still think it's damage control", a big shame... 

-40 degrees, 50K rotations, 100ft dropping, 14K transients, etc...  seems like an ElectroBoom review, just for fun. Almost zero probability of this use. (I won't ever use it above 1000V (or even 400V), and if this happens will be 15K, 30K, or 100K? doesn't matter, this is Very Far from the Max Specs).

The LOG issue was a useful discovery, interesting nobody realized that in 7 years (people were more concerned about dropping it from a waterfall), anyway, I hope KS checks/fix that.

Remember, this is "MY" option, and I don't care what you think about other people's opinions, if you don't agree, you are free to express YOUR OWN opinion since don't criticize other people's opinions.

But, since I know very well the Total Lack of Respect from the majority of people here... no hope.

[tautech]

But, since I know very well the Total Lack of Respect from the majority of people here... no hope.

Can I say in reference to this BS, respect is earned not given as a right.

Maybe as a newbie here you are yet to learn this ? 

[Trader]

Maybe as a newbie here you are yet to learn this ? 

"Can I say in reference to this BS, respect is earned not given as a right."

[Fungus]

-40 degrees, 50K rotations, 100ft dropping, 14K transients, etc...  seems like an ElectroBoom review, just for fun. Almost zero probability of this use. (I won't ever use it above 1000V (or even 400V), and if this happens will be 15K, 30K, or 100K? doesn't matter, this is Very Far from the Max Specs).

I wasn't aware that Joe was testing the meter for your personal gratification. 

I'm not a fanboy, YOU and he are hatters of people that express divergent opinions.

Your "opinion" was: "U1282A 4-batteries last more than 1000 hours".

Your evidence for that? "I never replaced the original batteries in 6 years (but I'm not sure how many hours I used it)". 

Surely it's better to measure the meter's current consumption and crunch the numbers than to just have an opinion on the matter.

What would happen of we built bridges and designed aircraft based on opinion?

[2N3055]

While I think some of his testing being is not always directly useful, except for entertrainment, one thing I do value him for is irreverence and following facts where they take him. And he honestly documents data as it is, good and bad...

At least you agree how useless is to use a "crappy box" with a lot of uncalibrated "references" that even an HB DMM will do very good, put it in a refrigerator below the specs without confirming batteries specs, and the best part, do 50K knob rotations, LOL  .

I'm not a fanboy, YOU and he are hatters of people that express divergent opinions.

Actually, these are the same people that prefer to Destroy a DMM by dropping it from a dam, just for "entertainment".

MY (understand this word: "MY", ok?) opinion is that the TheDefpom 2-videos review was much more useful, to verify if all the specs are very accurate (much better than that crappy box), and did you read that "With the timing, I still think it's damage control", a big shame... 

-40 degrees, 50K rotations, 100ft dropping, 14K transients, etc...  seems like an ElectroBoom review, just for fun. Almost zero probability of this use. (I won't ever use it above 1000V (or even 400V), and if this happens will be 15K, 30K, or 100K? doesn't matter, this is Very Far from the Max Specs).

The LOG issue was a useful discovery, interesting nobody realized that in 7 years (people were more concerned about dropping it from a waterfall), anyway, I hope KS checks/fix that.

Remember, this is "MY" option, and I don't care what you think about other people's opinions, if you don't agree, you are free to express YOUR OWN opinion since don't criticize other people's opinions.

But, since I know very well the Total Lack of Respect from the majority of people here... no hope.

First and foremost, I don't agree anything with you..
It is you who is rude and abrasive.

Defpom videos where he checks "accuracy" of reading have (to me) same merit as Joes "plastic"box, unless his calibrators are kept in current calibration with traceable calibration facility. They are both homemade quick sanity check of basic functionality. Joe is clear and open about that. It is you who didn't listen, chose to ignore, or deliberately lie about his intentions.

I don't think long videos where people check calibration of meters are useful. It is a waste of time, and a table made in accordance manufacturers performance verification test  is both more accurate and concise way of relaying that info. Again, only if reviewer has both calibrated equipment and skills to perform procedure correctly in a first place..

When reviewing multimeter, I like to see any operational quirks (things that are made counterintuitive or in weird way), things that are not mentioned in datasheets, obvious failings and deficiencies that are either not mentioned or contrary to datasheets....

And to quote one our member here:

"
Remember, this is "MY" option, and I don't care what you think about other people's opinions, if you don't agree, you are free to express YOUR OWN opinion since don't criticize other people's opinions.

But, since I know very well the Total Lack of Respect from the majority of people here... no hope.
"
Let me rephrase this confused statement into something more lucid:

You are free to express your opinions. Please don't attack people that don't agree with you. Accept that in same way as you have freedom to express anything you like, you shouldn't be rude to people, and in addition to that , these other people have freedom to call bullshit, laugh if you say something stupid or similar.
If you said something stupid or malicious, they have freedom to call you out on it. It doesn't mean they have right to insult you explicitly.

[Trader]

I wasn't aware that Joe was testing the meter for your personal gratification. 

Me neither, what's your point?  Can't I be free to like or dislike? Or have free speech for feedback?

Your "opinion" was: "U1282A 4-batteries last more than 1000 hours".

The manual says "800 hours typical based on new alkaline batteries for DC Voltage measurement".

I was very clear, this is an Opinion Based on Empirical Observation! I never demanded fixing that "battery life table"!!!

Maybe the new firmware could consume more power, or the settings, readings per second, etc; but I'm sure that I use it Much More than 377.4h hours (informed on that table) and the batteries still like full, even after being installed 6-years ago!!!

[AVGresponding]

I wasn't aware that Joe was testing the meter for your personal gratification. 

Me neither, what's your point?  Can't I be free to like or dislike? Or have free speech for feedback?

Your "opinion" was: "U1282A 4-batteries last more than 1000 hours".

The manual says "800 hours typical based on new alkaline batteries for DC Voltage measurement".

I was very clear, this is an Opinion Based on Empirical Observation! I never demanded fixing that "battery life table"!!!

Maybe the new firmware could consume more power, or the settings, readings per second, etc; but I'm sure that I use it Much More than 377.4h hours (informed on that table) and the batteries still like full, even after being installed 6-years ago!!!

DCV measurement puts the least demand on the batteries; the AC TRMS converter is inactive, there is no current being used to measure resistance or diode junction drop, and no ramp is generated to charge a capacitor. It verges on the disingenuous to categorise a use profile that is exclusively DCV as "typical".

Unless you have recorded your "observations" ie made written logs of the powered on time of your meter on this battery set, I'm afraid you can't describe it as "empirical". Human recollection is notoriously unreliable, which is why we write things down.

I would also point out that leaving alkaline batteries unchanged for 6 years is a recipe for disaster; you are gambling the life of your meter on them not leaking, despite a great deal of genuinely empirical evidence pointing to the high probability of this happening.

[Trader]

First and foremost, I don't agree anything with you..

Same, I totally agree.

Defpom videos where he checks "accuracy" of reading have (to me) same merit as Joes "plastic"box, unless his calibrators are kept in current calibration with traceable calibration facility.

I disagree, you can use a "crappy box" but at least provide the Precision Values to All References (measured in calibrated equipment).

But watching a person saying: "that's fine", "looks good", "not a problem", for measures 10% far from the (supposed) reference value!!! This is insane.

IF the TheDefpom equipment wasn't calibrated, SO, it's "un-calibrate" to perfectly bang on the Same Values on the DMM All the time, for All measurements!!! So MY opinion is that both are perfectly calibrated.

You are free to express your opinions. Please don't attack people that don't agree with you. Accept that in same way as you have freedom to express anything you like, you shouldn't be rude to people

I'm 100% Sure that I never offended or even disrespect other people here. I disagree with "respect is earned not given as a right", for me Everyone Must Be Respected.

and in addition to that , these other people have freedom to call bullshit, laugh if you say something stupid or similar.
If you said something stupid or malicious, they have freedom to call you out on it. It doesn't mean they have right to insult you explicitly.

Hum... I guess I understand, is like: "no personal attacks, but just bullying, moral offenses, and implicitly insults", right? Thanks for clarifying.

Ok, but I still think that you can disagree and argue about an opinion, but never criticize a person for giving feedback, doesn't matter if this person is a "newbie".

[Trader]

DCV measurement puts the least demand on the batteries; the AC TRMS converter is inactive, there is no current being used to measure resistance or diode junction drop, and no ramp is generated to charge a capacitor. It verges on the disingenuous to categorise a use profile that is exclusively DCV as "typical".

I totally agree with all your points.  At least they said that on the manual, MAYBE all other brands use the same procedure to measure the battery life, in this case, all of them had biased results.

"Human recollection is notoriously unreliable", agree, but I know that I spend a lot of time in the lab, so, still empirical for me; just 1-hour per day, 5-days a week, will be easily 250 hours per year.

"alkaline batteries unchanged for 6 years is a recipe for disaster", yes, I'll check that. Thank you for the remind me of that.

[2N3055]

Everyone must be given benefit of the doubt. Respect is earned. You claim you respect everybody but  many of your posts here are quite the opposite of that.

As for Defpom's or any other equipment, calibration is science. Your opinion of the meaning of the word means absolutely nothing. That word is already taken and defined to death. You can't have it, sorry.
You can have 10 voltmeters all showing precisely 10.0000V and all of them wrongly adjusted to same wrong 9.9V calibrator. If proper procedures are not followed it is not calibration.
It seems you didn't read all the way through the rest of that statement where I explained.

Hum... I guess I understand, is like: "no personal attacks, but just bullying, moral offenses, and implicitly insults", right? Thanks for clarifying.

[Trader]

Everyone must be given benefit of the doubt. Respect is earned. You claim you respect everybody but  many of your posts here are quite the opposite of that.

I disagree, show me and I'll ask sorry and revise it, if I offended someone.

You can have 10 voltmeters all showing precisely 10.0000V and all of them wrongly adjusted to same wrong 9.9V calibrator. If proper procedures are not followed it is not calibration.

You know very well that the Voltage Reference used by Dave, Defpom (and others) Aren't From the SAME Calibrator.

What's the probability of testing Other New DMMs, the results Match perfectly (almost all the time), just by a chance, or because both instruments are perfectly calibrated???

I don't have a calibrator, nor send my instruments to calibration, I just confirm that all DMMs, from Different Brands, still match each other.

I'm not saying that the "box" must be a Laboratory Grade precision, but at least, the minimum (to "gain respect") is to inform the 4+ decimal-digit precision value for all the reference voltages, resistances, capacitances, etc. Not only saying: "that's fine", "looks good", "not a problem".

But this is MY opinion and MY feedback, if you don't agree or care about that, I respect it, no problem for me; some people will test DMMs just by measuring the outlet, seeing 120V (or 240V), and say "that's perfect".

Please, if you want to continue insisting on this topic, just let me know the Precise Values of the References used on that box, and I'll compare them with what I'm seeing and not listening to.

[armandine2]

re subjective opinion (on topic)

 I might be in a small minority here, but Keysight's rotary switch (on my U1242C) feels fine to me. And although I like Gossen, Fluke, and AVO well enough I find on the Keysight you're less likely to overshoot when turning it to each position.

 

[tautech]

Will we see history once again repeat itself??       I have changed the brand name for your viewing pleasure. 
 

When I first listened to the video you came across as strongly anti Keysight so that appears to make you biased against the company straight away. Every multimeter has to be treated independently so it does not depend on the series or company it is from. You have said this yourself! There is a danger that you will stereotype a company because it does not at first live up to your own standards. "Saving your skin" is just saying that viewers will treat you with more respect and not pass you off as an anti Keysight tester.

I don't understand the point of testing these meters beyond their specifications. It says right on the front of the Keysight: "1000v" with CAT IV; why go beyond this?

These test are irrelevant over what is rated, is like you smash a car at 2 mach and say "ehh car not good, unsafe, bla bla" whats the point of using a meter over the rated point???

Why did you treat the Keysight unfairly?

Have you never used a tool beyond what it's rated to do knowing you are putting it at risk ?

TBH we all have and I see no issue with Defpom testing/investigating if an instrument can be used beyond any of its ratings for the benefit both his and our knowledge.
There are times when we might only have a particular tool available so to know it can handle work beyond its ratings as member bd139 discovered his little Bymen BM22s could do when he needed to set the EHT on a CRO.

Shocking abuse of a DMM I know but after some trouble to find it I'll leave this here:

[joeqsmith]

You people have been busy.. 

Will we see history once again repeat itself??       I have changed the brand name for your viewing pleasure. 
 

When I first listened to the video you came across as strongly anti Keysight so that appears to make you biased against the company straight away. Every multimeter has to be treated independently so it does not depend on the series or company it is from. You have said this yourself! There is a danger that you will stereotype a company because it does not at first live up to your own standards. "Saving your skin" is just saying that viewers will treat you with more respect and not pass you off as an anti Keysight tester.

I don't understand the point of testing these meters beyond their specifications. It says right on the front of the Keysight: "1000v" with CAT IV; why go beyond this?

These test are irrelevant over what is rated, is like you smash a car at 2 mach and say "ehh car not good, unsafe, bla bla" whats the point of using a meter over the rated point???

Why did you treat the Keysight unfairly?

Have you never used a tool beyond what it's rated to do knowing you are putting it at risk ?

TBH we all have and I see no issue with Defpom testing/investigating if an instrument can be used beyond any of its ratings for the benefit both his and our knowledge.
There are times when we might only have a particular tool available so to know it can handle work beyond its ratings as member bd139 discovered his little Bymen BM22s could do when he needed to set the EHT on a CRO.

Shocking abuse of a DMM I know but after some trouble to find it I'll leave this here:

It seems like you felt this was somehow directed toward Defpom after their videos were posted.   I actually only skimmed their first video just to get some idea if they had done anything beyond the basic unboxing.     Actually all of these comments were towards me.   Just a bit of history. 

[joeqsmith]

Defpom videos where he checks "accuracy" of reading have (to me) same merit as Joes "plastic"box, unless his calibrators are kept in current calibration with traceable calibration facility. They are both homemade quick sanity check of basic functionality. Joe is clear and open about that. It is you who didn't listen, chose to ignore, or deliberately lie about his intentions.

Certainly true that I use that box to make sure the meters are functional.  As I have said, I assume the meters come from the factory meeting their specified accuracy and so it's nothing I have ever considered.   I am sure anyone who has watched knows I run through a basic check between each test to see if the meter has started to fail.  Sanity check is a very good way to describe it.    While there are some decent parts inside that box,  I doubt there are very many educated people that would compare it with an actual reference.   I keep a couple of cheap standards at work that are not in cal.  Maybe $2000 for one resistor?  Something like that.  The box has maybe a $300 in parts?  I would need to total it up but I'm sure any engineer is going to know this box is nothing to do with calibrating a meter.   Well... that's not true as Dave has said that anyone who calls themselves an engineer is one.       

I can't speak for Defpom. If they are trying to show a product meets the manufactures specs, I assume their equipment is current with cal. and they would have all the papers and records for it.   Nothing I show is NIST traceable nor was that ever the intention.   

Anyway, good post.  Thanks for trying to clear things up.   I know we have a group made up of people from all different background and education levels.  It spans from the electrician who has no idea that anything is faster than 400Hz, to the beginner electronics wizard who has no idea what ESD is, to the old fart who has spent a life time in design and still doesn't know jack (that's me).   

****
Just to add, because it always comes up.  Nothing I show has anything to do with safety.   The transients I will be applying are very low energy and have nothing to do with the IEC standards outside of my basing the open circuit voltage waveform on them.   And of course, because I see I still have some people who post "First" in the comments section, I assume a few children still hang around to watch the sparks fly.   For them, I want to state that I am not connecting the meters to a large capacitor bank and just because I may show the same meter you have surviving to 12kV, that doesn't suggest that it will survive when you hook it to mom and dads old MOT that you salvaged.   

[joeqsmith]

Joe is having his fun, with his own money and on his own time..
You either watch or not, agree or not...

While I think some of his testing being is not always directly useful, except for entertrainment, one thing I do value him for is irreverence and following facts where they take him. And he honestly documents data as it is, good and bad...

Yes, this testing has purely been out of my own interest or I would never have started it.  And certainly anyone who has watched knows I have a bit of fun with some of the lower end products.   As you said, my time, my money, my test standards ....  Everything is documented enough to where anyone could replicate it if they wanted it.  Of course, that doesn't suggest I am telling the kiddies how to construct potentially lethal transient generators but as we have seen, anyone in the business of running these kinds of tests could certainly repeat them.    Not being paid or sponsored,  I run the products I want to see the way I want to see them ran.  Viewers are along for the ride.  Once in a while you even get to pick what we look at.    Sadly, we now have this entitlement culture.  I can only imagine if I were allowing people to donate how bad it would be having to deal with them.  "I gave you a dollar last year and I demand you tell me how to fix my meter!"  Sorry, I'm not interested.   

***
SP

[rsjsouza]

re subjective opinion (on topic)
 I might be in a small minority here, but Keysight's rotary switch (on my U1242C) feels fine to me. And although I like Gossen, Fluke, and AVO well enough I find on the Keysight you're less likely to overshoot when turning it to each position.

My subjective ranking is the following:
1. The absolute kings: Fluke 87V and 179
2. Fluke 101, Richmeters RM113D, Brymen BM251 (Greenlee DM200A), UT61E, Sanwa PM300
3. Keysight U1273A, U1282A, Brymen BM857, BSide ZT-Y, AstroAI M6KOR
3. Fluke 189 and 27/FM (my units were bought used, so they might have already been worn from prior use), Keysight U1233A
4. Manual ranging meters in general (the short stops are easy to get wrong)

(there may be others that I forgot)

[Trader]

1. The absolute kings: Fluke 87V and 179

LOL, just try a Gossen 

[rsjsouza]

1. The absolute kings: Fluke 87V and 179

LOL, just try a Gossen 

Hehehe... They are too rich for me. I wasn't as lucky as you to get one on the cheap. 

[tautech]

Anyone notice a new Brymen clamp meter, the BM037 that Dave apparently will market ?

We think you should put it through its paces Joe. 

[joeqsmith]

Anyone notice a new Brymen clamp meter, the BM037 that Dave apparently will market ?

We think you should put it through its paces Joe. 

We?  You and Dave? 

Searching you will find it mentioned in 2020 so it's not a new product:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/clamp-meter-safe-reliable-and-under-$200/
More info is here:
https://brymen.eu/shop/bm037/
https://brymen.eu/wp-content/uploads/biall/102194/102194.INSTRUKCJA_EN..2019-02-26.1.pdf

I have never transient tested a clamp meter.  Not being an electrician, it's not something I would have much use for.   I suspect the lack of interest suggests other hobbyist also have little interest in them.  For automotive, I normally need something much more sensitive to detect high leakage currents.  On the bench, I would typically want something with much higher BW.  I like that old 1960's Tektronix P6042.  I was able to improve the UT210E's bandwidth by designing a new front end for it.  Sadly the typical UNI-T quality insures a short life as I have seen several of these now where the switches have failed after a few years. 

Guessing if Dave plans to sell it, he will make a review.  You may want to suggest tests for him to run. 

[tautech]

Anyone notice a new Brymen clamp meter, the BM037 that Dave apparently will market ?

We think you should put it through its paces Joe. 

We?  You and Dave? 

With the fun you had with 121 I'd have thought you'd be 1st in the cue to check it out. 

Searching you will find it mentioned in 2020 so it's not a new product:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/clamp-meter-safe-reliable-and-under-$200/
More info is here:
https://brymen.eu/shop/bm037/
https://brymen.eu/wp-content/uploads/biall/102194/102194.INSTRUKCJA_EN..2019-02-26.1.pdf

I have never transient tested a clamp meter.  Not being an electrician, it's not something I would have much use for.   I suspect the lack of interest suggests other hobbyist also have little interest in them.  For automotive, I normally need something much more sensitive to detect high leakage currents.  On the bench, I would typically want something with much higher BW.  I like that old 1960's Tektronix P6042. 

Yes, wonderful bits of kit these old current probes and have had a P6021 for some years and added the 120MHz P6022 to my kit a year or 2 back.

Guessing if Dave plans to sell it, he will make a review.  You may want to suggest tests for him to run.

And put the fox in charge of the hen house, not bloody likely !


Anyways, just stumbled on it yesterday on YT: